LimpyLoo

February 2, 2017

That sounds reasonable!

February 2, 2017

Chaos by James Gleick

The Raga Guide

lol good thing I'm clever or else my constant cynicism might be seen as a vice instead of a virtue lol

lol
lol

But Keanu is a total delight, isn't he?

*spends actual time making meme to ridicule Keanu*

February 2, 2017

This theocracy ting will be okay if we all become Quakers.

Or what if we were to learn that science and religion are after the same thing

And that tribes have 'behavioral immune systems'

So if you say "alright Creationists, you fucking idiots, time to discard your superstition and embrace Evolution", then:

a) if they don't respond well, it's because they're fucking idiots and we need to shout at them louder

b) if they act tribalistically in order to protect their religion against those who think it's superstition, then that's a fucking mystery, innit!

c) if they look like you've just presented them with a complete non-sequitur (e.g. "discard boxer-briefs and embrace thin-crust pizza"), then again, it's because they're fucking idiots

d) whatever you do, don't try to understand them and reason with them...they are sub-human, and immune to logic

TL;DR =

everyone's a fucking idiot, so you just need to shout louder

February 2, 2017

In other words, it's difficult to create and implement a long-term strategy when you're in jail or dead.

Limpy: Keep tilting at them windmills.

Why aren't things awesome?

Well, obviously it wasn't because the people of the recent past chose shitty short-term solutions for the ever-recurring problems of civilization (which they treated as short-term problems, not long-term).

(I always appreciate the condescension and cynicism, though.)

February 2, 2017

@Candiru

As someone who's been trying to decipher and understand religious language

over the last couple years

My thoughts on what Creationists believe has shifted a bit

And I'm not entirely convinced they believe what we think they believe

First off, I think the naive concept of 'a belief' is highly misleading

It assumes that humans are usually after literally-accurate-representations-of-the-world

Instead of models of the world (literal or mythopoetic) that act as behavioral rules-of-thumb that produce good outcomes

Well, hopefully your parents and teachers tried to fill you with such mythopoetic wisdom during your moral development:

I mean, do you literally believe a watched pot never boils?

Because that sounds like fucking pseudo-science to me!

So 'yes/no' question: do you "believe" a watched pot never boils?

How do you answer that question?

Well look, there's been a lot of great work on Thermodynamics

And I'm sorry to say that your ideas about the pre-conditions for certain state transitions is fucking pseudo-science, mate

Well anyway, I think Creationists are running such a mythopoetic heuristic/model

So when I hear someone say "that person is doing the work of the devil"

I hear "devil" as a data-compression-algorithm for "things that drag the world down in this specific way that religious people

I don't just assume that person believes in a red dude with horns and a pitchfork

(Simply because I was taught somewhere that 'the devil' is a red dude and anyone who talks about 'the devil' is talking about a red dude...I don't know where the induction/deduction error is in that process, but it is most certainly there)

Okay, so we tell Creationists that they're stupid

And their 'beliefs' run counter to what we know about Evolution

Well...hold on, there

Let's just make sure everyone's talking about the same exact aspects of reality, here

So anyway

Look, I've encountered this same problem all over the place:

In order to communicate across any linguistic divides (e.g. Science and Religion, Math/Logic and Linguistic Philosophy, etc etc)

At least one person needs to understand both languages

To translate between the two 'inner dictionaries' people are using

Otherwise, things are genuinely hopeless

And (big surprise) misinterpretations abound

See, there's this one great story

about how arrogance prevents us from understanding each other

And thus how humanity fractures into different and incommensurable 'languages'...

February 2, 2017

Quick, let's try to see it from their perspective!

Done! Now what?

lol

Now obviously we shout the truth at them condescendingly

And when they (somehow) don't take our word for it

We call them idiots for not seeing the truth

And then we create memes about how stupid they are

And rant on social media about how stupid they are

Because hey, I tried to shame them into agreeing with me

And they didn't take my word for it

(Because they're idiots obviously)

What more can I possibly do?

February 2, 2017

Everybody wants the world to be awesome

But nobody thinks that entails looking in the mirror

So they talk about short-term strategies for toppling Trump

And they scoff at the idea of acting how they want the world to act towards them

("because mate, we need a quick-and-dirty right-now solution for Trump, not some stable long-term systemic solution like you're advocating for")

When does 'political activism' become 'tribalism'?

How about this:

The gates are being stormed!

The gates are being stormed!

Do whatever it takes to defeat the barbarians!

Has anyone else noticed that the gates are always being stormed?

Well, maybe things are shitty because people use 'the gates are being stormed" as an excuse to do whatever they want in pursuit of their political agenda

Because lucky me, I'm now morally justified to use any means necessary to protect the tribe...

February 2, 2017

P.S. You're saying "whatever it takes to stop Trump...good faith, bad faith, whatever it takes to implement our agenda"

Yeah well...that's the logic that drives the very 'tribalism' you're complaining about

(So yes you're advocating 'tribalism')

February 2, 2017

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know
what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are
increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,
but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

1) The 'rational mind' (as divorced from emotion, the body, etc) is a shitty meme that just won't seem to die;
If you didn't have emotions

you would act less rational, not more rational

e.g. If you want to see irrationality, see patient 'S.M.'

Her amygdala (which generates negative emotion) was basically destroyed

And as a result she constantly wound up in dangerous situations

And was regularly exploited by people around her

All this talk of pure, disembodied rationality needs to read some William James and then die of dick cancer

2) Well where is this dreaded tribalism coming from?

Maybe it's coming from the exact strategy you're advocating

"Yeah yeah sincerity good faith whatever man...but first thing's first: we gotta secure/protect the interests of our tribe, yo"

Yeah, you can't advocate for the one and then complain about the other

You don't wanna put sincerity and good faith into the system?

Well then don't complain when the system doesn't miraculously exhibit sincerity or good faith

I don't understand how you're reading that stuff out of my posts.
Let me make it crystal clear: I like sincerity and good faith, but I don't think sincerity and good faith are going to fucking work on Trump et al. It did not work during the campaign and it's not working now, at least not on the people currently running the White House. It might work on regular people who feel that Trump is their only way forward, but since he has wound them up emotionally and keeps doing so, it's going to be really hard to get them to change.

And I'm not using the word "rational" in the way you think I am. My point is that if people are riled up emotionally - angry, afraid, etc. - then they're acting less rationally and making decisions in the heat of the moment without thinking.

I want to put sincerity and good faith into the system, but what I am saying is that Trump has and is currently putting industrial quantities of BAD faith in the system.

I don't get how I'm the one somehow advocating tribalism here.

You're saying we need a 'short-term solution' for dealing with Trump?

(And my proposed 'long-term solution' isn't gonna work on this short-term problem?)

"It didn't work during the campaign"

Were people being sincere and honest during the campaign?

I must've missed the part where the political debate in the U.S. tried actual sincerity and actual good faith...and it failed

(Hillary is totally sincere and totally acts in good faith, btw)

February 2, 2017

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

Sorry if I sound like I am telling you how to solve your problems. I am not. I'm not american, I don't know
what's the best solution. I am just worried about all this shit, and I hope it doesn't end too violently.

2) I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

Ok, ignore the iPhone, my point is that advertising works because of behavioral psychology. Now the same methods are
increasingly being used to mold people's thinking and turn off the rational mind. There's horrible stuff in that article I linked.

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

My optimism in humanity took a big hit with Trump getting elected. I agree that sincerity and good faith are good strategies,
but I also feel that what has been going on has has emotionally charged people on both sides up to a level where tribalistic base instincts are taking over. And

those instincts do not produce rational responses with regard to modern society, but rather have evolved to preserve

the individual and their closer community (family, tribe, etc.).

I'm not saying Trump's strategy is better, I am just saying that currently, it's winning. And it's winning because he's switched off sincerity

and good faith in a lot of people by making them believe they're under attack, be it by muslim terrorists or the liberal left. On a micro/personal level you can

indeed change this by engaging with people and being nice, but you're up against an advanced hate propaganda machine.

1) The 'rational mind' (as divorced from emotion, the body, etc) is a shitty meme that just won't seem to die;

If you didn't have emotions

you would act less rational, not more rational

e.g. If you want to see irrationality, see patient 'S.M.'

Her amygdala (which generates negative emotion) was basically destroyed

And as a result she constantly wound up in dangerous situations

And was regularly exploited by people around her

All this talk of pure, disembodied rationality needs to read some William James and then die of dick cancer

2) Well where is this dreaded tribalism coming from?

Maybe it's coming from the exact strategy you're advocating

"Yeah yeah sincerity good faith whatever man...but first thing's first: we gotta secure/protect the interests of our tribe, yo"

Yeah, you can't advocate for the one and then complain about the other

You don't wanna put sincerity and good faith into the system?

Well then don't complain when the system doesn't miraculously exhibit sincerity or good faith

February 2, 2017

@thawkins

1) So in short:

we should (as we always do) forgo long-term solutions for short-term solutions?

And then in 4-8 years scramble for some new short-term solutions?

And then...

Maybe one day we can entertain some more broad-scale 'macro' ideas

But since our current problems are immediate 'micro' problems

We need immediate 'micro' solutions...

2)

what's going on now is the application of cutting edge behavioral psychology

applied to not...

I mean, you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into buying iPhones

(IPhones are--by design--inherently useful to humans; we don't buy them merely because we're sheeple)

And you don't need to deceive/manipulate people into acting to protect their body

(which is what fascism boils down to: remove all the things in the environment that might damage my body, regardless the cost to others)

3) re: conceding flaws and good faith

I must be overly optimistic about humanity

Because my thinking is that sincerity and good faith are good strategies regardless of what your opponent thinks of them

If you think Trump's "concede no weakness whatsoever" is a better strategy

Then well yes I disagree with you

Ever seen that strange-ass film "Bullworth"?

Well, how do you beat/undermine a politician who is literally upfront about everything?

Who isn't hiding skeletons and insecurities and vulnerabilities?

Who volunteers the unsavory aspects of his past (that most politicians would scramble to hide)?

Well, to me that looks exactly like a stable long-term strategy/solution

Instead of this "hey, we should out-Machiavelli Machiavelli" game that people really like to play when the stakes are high-ish

But again, we can have this conversation again in 4-8 years or whenever

And we can decide on these same short-term solutions then too

(And who knows: maybe this time they'll work...)

February 2, 2017

Larry O'Stab

(Irish neo-krautrock sensation)

February 2, 2017

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Robbie and his sister, Glenn Greenwald, Noam Chomsky etc etc.
What was your response to them?

What is my response or what was my response?

I think they were right about Obama

(And to the extent I disagreed, I was wrong)

But I can't even remember all the shitty things I thought a few years ago

I was a clinically-depressed heroin addict

And my political thinking was way more 'survive' than 'thrive'

So I was like

"yo government, protect me from scary shit at any cost

In fact, make the mesh of the net as fine as possible

Because hey false positives are safer than false negatives"

February 2, 2017

"Kiss Me Where The Sun-Don't-Shine" Band

February 2, 2017

It's not the "liberal ends", that were the reasons for doing so. It's western democracy in general, which has never been more clear than it is now.

What part of 'western democracy' does mass surveillance of a population serve?

Or a drone program where the chances you killed the right person are like 50%? ("one of those 10 people I just droned was a suspected terrorist")

But Obama's a liberal, so it's all for western democracy.

(When others do it, though, it's because they're evil and stupid)

February 2, 2017

Seven Mary Three

February 1, 2017

*drags on vape*

puff puff pass that shit on over here, m83

*extends leprosy-covered hand*

February 1, 2017

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

One guy who is much older and about to retire likes Trumps ideas but doesn't like the way they are presented.
I've said this to people I know before. It's a matter of tact. Sometimes it's not what you're saying or doing so much as how you're saying or doing it.

Trump has the tact of an angry 10 year old who has just been told he's not getting ice cream or something.

His temperament and apologists for it baffle me the most. I know people who readily excuse or even like his faults yet spent 8 years cynically scoffing and critiquing Obama on every little thing. It really makes you wonder if racist and sexist undertones are behind such attitudes.

I don't think it's all that baffling

Trump is a fragile narcissist

Whom this world has repeatedly rewarded

To the tune of millions of dollars and a U.S. Presidency

(So why the fuck would he act any different?!?)

The problem isn't Donald Trump

The problem is that the world rewards people like Donald Trump

His apologists are happy to overlook his flaws

So long as they're protected from the things they want to be protected from

We've set up a political climate such that

Conceding flaws on *our* side

necessarily means giving ammunition to *their* side

So yes, people are slow to concede points

When they think their life/livelihood is at stake

February 1, 2017

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

Nobody said he was perfect, but if anything it's obvious why we need the NSA now more than ever. Things like that are good for catching Flynn accept 19.5% of the stake in Rosneft...

He also actually gave a shit about his job. We could make false equivalencies all day and it still doesn't make voting for Trump a good idea, does it?

So it kinda sounds like you're excusing violating the Constitution so long as it it serves liberal ends...

"False equivalences"?

Obama was polite, dignified and intelligent

But a body count is a body count

Don't remember a single lefty calling for his impeachment

Despite his many atrocities and human rights violations...

Did I say voting Trump was a good idea?

Did I even *hint* at it?

Please don't put words in my mouth

February 1, 2017

Did we "own up to" Obama's drone program, NSA, secret wars, executive orders, etc?

Or did we say "yeah but he's a liberal, so..."

February 1, 2017

You do make a fair point tho Limpy.

IRL in my daily public dealings, I'm not just gonna ask every person I know if they vote Republican and if they answer yes, I'm not gonna be like "well fuck you then." Because we all still share the land, despite our political differences.

But at the same time I'm concerned that the current regime will fundamentally overhaul our political system, to the point where GOP politicians fully consolidate their party power and effectively ban future elections altogether. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not saying "capitulate"

I'm saying "new strategy"

Hopefully everyone here knows/can guess my thoughts on education, climate and everything else that's currently on sale to the lowest bidder/highest donor

So believe me when I say the stakes are way too high to quietly take our lumps for 4-8 years

Rather, I think we should always talk to people as if they're on our side, and not like some alien race that's trying to steal civilization away from the humans

I think of instances where I've been "othered" to whatever degree

And the idea that I was in the mood to agree with them?

(On anything, let alone politics?)

Fuck no...

if anything, people get spiteful

And go far, far out of their way to contradict the other person

(We all know people we wouldn't be caught *dead* agreeing with)

Why?

Because people are guided by their present goals/motivations, not by pure omniscient rationality

So if my goal is to prove that the person I'm debating is a fucking idiot

*agreeing with them on anything* seems like a terrible move

(Because that 'person' isn't like *me* at all)

February 1, 2017

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

yeah, it seems fairly difficult to find open and logical discussion regarding this whole matter. i'm sure it's out there, but it seems to be drowned out by volumes of mindless projection, unshakable dogma, condescension, insults, etc.

i wonder if understanding the source and proliferation of these dichotomies we're all being presented with is actually more important than choosing sides and getting lost in the noise?

So, I think what happens is that

both sides feel morally justified in doing whatever it takes

To push their agenda through

e.g. I just saw a petition going around to convince Angus King to reject *all* of Trump's nominees for everything

Not half of them, not 80% of them

Every last one

Now, hopefully everybody remembers when the Rebulicunts cock-blocked Obama from 'doing his job' at every possible chance

Well, good news everybody!

*we* are justified in acting that way because our agenda is morally righteous

but when *they* do it, it's because they're evil

(Now, how can we convince the Republican'ts that they're dumb and evil?!?)

We all enjoyed watching Republicans suffer under Obama

Now it's time to reap the shitty fruit of that attitude

(Or perhaps we could treat everyone like fellow human beings)

February 1, 2017

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

I wish we didn't have to wait for Trump to do something SO irredeemable, that they could just finally figure it out themselves, but then there's the risk of them still making excuses for him after that.

I think people know that if they voted for him and shit really hits the fan, they have no one to blame but themselves. So they blame this caricature of "liberals" to make themselves not feel responsible. They reach the bargaining phase of grief and stop there.

1) people in general are like that

It's not some character defect only found on the Right

e.g. Your post is exactly how my father talks about the Left

(Basically: "eventually they'll see the error of their ways, and I'll be nearby smirking knowingly at their foolishness, though I won't say 'I told you so' to their face because I'm classy like that")

2) you can't just *tell* someone they're wrong

And then call them dumb when they don't take your word for it

(Has that approach ever changed *your* mind?)

Wow, big surprise things are so shitty

"I mean, we keep *telling* them they're fucking idiots

But they're fucking idiots so they don't listen"

How about we try another approach

Maybe start with the assumption that these people are like us

And that even *we* don't tend to change our minds when someone from the other side is calling us fucking idiots for not seeing the light

3) I'm gonna just keep posting my favorite Jack Handy joke:

Bill is a real jerk

But if he were here, he'd say I was the jerk

No Bill, you're the jerk

But if he were here...

February 1, 2017

Maybe calling the right a bunch of idiots isn't actually a good strategy

Maybe we should treat them like actual human beings

And try to actually understand their thoughts and decisions

Instead of writing them off as irredeemable sub-human scum

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the "ur dumb lol" strategy is working

February 1, 2017

Drinking nuclear waste would also kill bacteria

If you drink de-ionized water, it will kill your digestive flora and you'll have to get a poop injection to get back up to speed. If Morgan Freeman knew to get his hands on some when he was in Shawshank, he could have busted outta there the same time as Tim Robbins if he played his cards right.

'I've been known to locate poop injections from time to time...'

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