Paulie Walnuts Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 yeah there is... the thing is, if you study strict classical composition then there is a lot of information to absorb - you have to have a good knowledge of the history of music too... but that's also for writing fuges and modal counterpoint, which is far and beyond what you need to know, or at least what you'd consider "basics". Understanding Harmony by Robert L Jacobs is a good guide... short book, goes right from the very basics of how scales and chords work through harmony and counterpoint within the first few chapters... Jazz is even quicker to pick up Best to have someone to show you ideally - If you can find a good piano or music teacher and just ask to be shown basic harmony and composition... There's a good guide here: http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk/ the harmony section is short and to the point, should tell you enough to grasp it... i wouldn't recommend trying to memorize any of it - it is boring unless applied - so best to work with an instrument as you learn harmony and counterpoint are very advanced skills. the basics... fair enough.. thirds and fifths.. cadences.. you can pick up quickly, but what an arrogant statement to make... the statement about jazz on top of this serves to compound this arrogance... jazz is more complex and variable than even baroque counterpoint. although i'm probably wrong, you clearly know everything... well done. :shade: Spot the schizotypal narcissist - Can't even talk about music on a music production forum without you getting offended... Harmony and counterpoint are not "very advanced skills", they're terms for the 2 basic aspects of composition... they're as advanced or as rudimentry as you make them... admittedly, with music you have to learn the language 1 stage at a time otherwise it will seem completely alien when you read it in books - But the ideas they're discussing are very simple. 3rd's, 5th's and cadences are things you can explain to a 9 year-old in about 30 seconds... harmony and counterpoint would take about 2 minutes assuming they have a very basic grasp of music... Jazz is the simplest of all - Jazz is as simple as playing any note you want as long as it resolves to a chord... There's no strict rules at all... Just take conventional harmony, loosen the rules, add 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, 13th's etc.. as standard added notes and tend to leave them unresolved (resolving notes and chords is 90% of conventional harmony - jazz is that other 10%)... that is all there is to it... Renaissance counterpoint has nothing to do with jazz... Jazz is chord-based - Renaissance counterpoint is a series of rules which generate melodies almost systematically, but it's a completely different thing altogether... Not complicated, just lots of them... Talk of resolving the 7th on the supertonic to the dominant 3rd may sound difficult, but trust me, it's just the use of words - It's a piss-easy concept a small animal could understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
posture Posted January 2, 2006 Author Share Posted January 2, 2006 lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylonbitch Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Spot the schizotypal narcissist - Can't even talk about music on a music production forum without you getting offended... not offended. Harmony and counterpoint are not "very advanced skills", they're terms for the 2 basic aspects of composition... they're as advanced or as rudimentry as you make them... admittedly, with music you have to learn the language 1 stage at a time otherwise it will seem completely alien when you read it in books - But the ideas they're discussing are very simple.i know what they are, and they can be taken to a logical extent that is fully complex, and couldn't be explained to a nine year old... if your knowledge of this subject can be, you're not as clued up as you think you are. 3rd's, 5th's and cadences are things you can explain to a 9 year-old in about 30 seconds... harmony and counterpoint would take about 2 minutes assuming they have a very basic grasp of music... see above answer. and read my original post... i SAID that 3rds, fifths and your basic four cadences were a piece of piss... but theory/hapmony/counterpoint are way more complicated if you want to learn about them properly. (which isn't entirely necessary) Jazz is the simplest of all - Jazz is as simple as playing any note you want as long as it resolves to a chord... There's no strict rules at all... Just take conventional harmony, loosen the rules, add 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, 13th's etc.. as standard added notes and tend to leave them unresolved (resolving notes and chords is 90% of conventional harmony - jazz is that other 10%)... that is all there is to it...yeah wicked.. i'd love to hear some of your 'jazz' Renaissance counterpoint has nothing to do with jazz... Jazz is chord-based - Renaissance counterpoint is a series of rules which generate melodies almost systematically, but it's a completely different thing altogether... Not complicated, just lots of them... Talk of resolving the 7th on the supertonic to the dominant 3rd may sound difficult, but trust me, it's just the use of words - It's a piss-easy concept a small animal could understand. not at any point did i mention renaissance counterpoint... i mentioned baroque... and to an extent you're right... it is a series of rules... that have the potential to become infinitely complex if you use the maths the right way...study bach if you think baroque counterpoint is simple... and i didn't relate it to jazz.. i just said jazz can be more complex... fucks sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Who says I was trying to offend you? I just notice that people who tend to argue about subjects like this, i.e. subjects even they realise they're woefully inadiquate in, with nothing but assumptions and contempt, tend to be quite prone to paranoia losing touch with reality... Just an observation... Please put the scissors down. Anyway... On to your "ideas"... Renaissance counterpoint is Baroque counterpoint... Over both eras many trends came and went - We classify them as separate eras now, but the backbone of what we now call Renaissance counterpoint were the same rules used in the Baroque era... ...and you don't need to tell me I'm right... I am spot on about everything I say... I'm trying to educate you here. I'll say it again, but there's a limit to how much time I intend to waste arguing with you about this - There's nothing complex about counterpoint or harmony if you have a basic grasp of music theory and terminology... Even your Baroque countpoint is nothing more than a long list of very simple rules you have to follow... It may sound complicated if you don't understand the language, but it's not... I did Grade 8 music theory before I was out of middle school (which ain't that amazing) - But I was scoring fugues in exams from memory when I was a 12 year-old... so trust me on this, it's piss easy, you just need to understand the language properly. I sound like a broken record here - But if you want to see for yourself I suggest you get a good piano teacher... Jazz theory is very simple... There are no rules at all, and therefore, no theory to learn... Rather, jazz is a style of playing - A few distinctive, commonly used chords, like Sus4's, So What chords, Phygrian chords, etc... a few commonly used techniques like parallel voicings, and that's it... It's all done by ear and improvised... You don't need to resolve anything, you don't need to stay in key... If you wanted to turn it into an academic subject like modal counterpoint then you'd need teams of autistic maths geniuses to decode the logic behind it and turn it into something linear... I've been playing jazz piano in bands and as a session musician since I was about 16... neither of them are complex at all... they just seem that way if your only experience of music theory is flicking through a few books... Fucks sake fucking prick lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylonbitch Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Who says I was trying to offend you? I just notice that people who tend to argue about subjects like this, i.e. subjects even they realise they're woefully inadiquate in, with nothing but assumptions and contempt, tend to be quite prone to paranoia losing touch with reality... Just an observation... Please put the scissors down. Anyway... On to your "ideas"... Renaissance counterpoint is Baroque counterpoint... Over both eras many trends came and went - We classify them as separate eras now, but the backbone of what we now call Renaissance counterpoint were the same rules used in the Baroque era... ...and you don't need to tell me I'm right... I am spot on about everything I say... I'm trying to educate you here. I'll say it again, but there's a limit to how much time I intend to waste arguing with you about this - There's nothing complex about counterpoint or harmony if you have a basic grasp of music theory and terminology... Even your Baroque countpoint is nothing more than a long list of very simple rules you have to follow... It may sound complicated if you don't understand the language, but it's not... I did Grade 8 music theory before I was out of middle school (which ain't that amazing) - But I was scoring fugues in exams from memory when I was a 12 year-old... so trust me on this, it's piss easy, you just need to understand the language properly. I sound like a broken record here - But if you want to see for yourself I suggest you get a good piano teacher... Jazz theory is very simple... There are no rules at all, and therefore, no theory to learn... Rather, jazz is a style of playing - A few distinctive, commonly used chords, like Sus4's, So What chords, Phygrian chords, etc... a few commonly used techniques like parallel voicings, and that's it... It's all done by ear and improvised... You don't need to resolve anything, you don't need to stay in key... If you wanted to turn it into an academic subject like modal counterpoint then you'd need teams of autistic maths geniuses to decode the logic behind it and turn it into something linear... I've been playing jazz piano in bands and as a session musician since I was about 16... neither of them are complex at all... they just seem that way if your only experience of music theory is flicking through a few books... i also have grade 8 in theory, and 8 with distinction on piano. yes, the concepts individually are simplistic enough, but altogether can be used to express infinite complexity... you were the one who suggested i was offended by the way...i just pointed out i wasn't. and my knowledge of the subject is actually pretty in depth... not as you say.. 'woefully inadequate' anyways, i ain't here to make you feel bad... just to clarify to those a little less clued up that your points were quite glib. and i had a great piano teacher... jazz theory is something i keep thinking i'm clued up on, and then i learn there's a million more to learn. even thhe minimal blue note stuff is deceptively simple. i suspect you're the same. and my experience of music theory goes back to starting to play the piano when i was four..fourteen years of lessons... o grade and higher music, up to grade 8 theory and practical, and three years at college doing music production. also several years playing live, and a career as an engineer/producer. your assumptions just serve to reinforce my point that your assertions were arrogant. so yeah, fucks sake fucking prick. tit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylonbitch Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 actually, i'm going to take back the last two lines of my last post... i don't really feel that insulting someone i don't know on a forum is especially in character for me. so yeah, i take the insults back... if i could edit them out i would. the rest still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well you can easily be Grade 8 piano & theory without knowing shit about music - Grade 8 means you're equipped to start learning properly - It wasn't until I was taught composition by a decent teacher, years later, that I felt I got a proper grasp of music. I'm really not sure what it is you find difficult or complex about jazz - If you are good with music language then you can give me a few examples and I'll attempt to explain them better. Jazz has to be straight forward enough for a stoned 70 year-old keyboard player to be able to improvise freely and indefinetly... Not to say it's easy to be a great jazz musician - The theory side is 1% of what makes jazz - It's 99% about imagination and natural musicality... and tbh, with regards simple counterpoint, which I was originally refering to (as opposed to modal), it's generally just a case of conceptualising a melody and playing it by ear... There's very little theory behind it other than a very rough guidelines and pointers - But it's still something which requires thought and time to work out, as opposed to jazz which is a very spontaneous playing style. Hence, I could easily teach someone the basics of harmony and counterpoint in two days... Certainly enough to understand the rest as and when it comes up, and certainly enough to drastically improve your ability to understand and interpret music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foresense Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Ending a thread. How to end a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boo Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 bassdrum or snare-drum hit :smiling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezeh Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 like, a *prrrrrr chhshh * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iain C Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I think the best way to end this thread would be for Pylon and Paully (or P&P as they shall henceforth be known) to stop arguing and point the amateurs to where they can actually learn some of this stuff - just the basics will do - so maybe then this silly flamewar would have some good come out of it :jedi: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iain C Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Hence, I could easily teach someone the basics of harmony and counterpoint in two days... Certainly enough to understand the rest as and when it comes up, and certainly enough to drastically improve your ability to understand and interpret music... In fact if you were able to put a little guide together I'm sure a lot of people here would appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boo Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 yeah that would be a good use for those typing skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iain C Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I'm serious, since getting a synth with a keyboard and being a bit rubbish at actually playing it, I'd love to have a bit of a firmer grounding in the basics so I can actually use it as a musical instrument as opposed to a source for sounds and MIDI data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disco_epilepsy Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 3rd's, 5th's and cadences are things you can explain to a 9 year-old in about 30 seconds... you should have seen my year 10 music class, which was only level 3 theory we spent a few weeks on cadences (a few people in the class understood straight away, me included, but everyone else still couldn't get it after that time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylonbitch Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 ok, for iain.. theory tutorials for 'songwriters' i did a quick search, and came up with this... it looks pretty basic, but it's got alot of useful info. word to the wise... noe of the 'rules' are set in stone... it's not a great idea to get religiously mired in theory. i learned most of what i know about theory, and about harmony at high school, and from my piano teacher. the real fun starts when you learn that every single one of the rules can be broken. hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iain C Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Cheers mate. I've actually considered getting piano lessons but I wouldn't know where to find them. And do you reckon 20 is too old? edit: and of course the teacher would no doubt LOL their head off when I told them all about the wonders of electronic music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foresense Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Don't forget the books by Alan Belkin mentioned above. You can get 4 PDF's from that site. A Practical Guide to Musical Composition, Principles of Counterpoint, Artistic Orchestration and General Principles of Harmony. http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk/ I don't know how good they are but they seem alright and straight to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heliumbaboon Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 sounds dumb, i know, but i picked up the idiot's guide to music theory and it's really helped me a ton, since i can only play sax and have no clue about chords and whatnot. now i'm not just stabbing in the dark until something sounds right. saves a lot of time with that little bit on knowledge of modes and cadences and all that jibbajabba. word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Cheers mate. I've actually considered getting piano lessons but I wouldn't know where to find them. And do you reckon 20 is too old? edit: and of course the teacher would no doubt LOL their head off when I told them all about the wonders of electronic music It's a REALLY good idea, at any age. It's odd innit, I remember my music class at school was very slow paced, but when it's you and a teacher, and you really want to improve, then you can go from nothing to Grade 8 in under 10 months (know a few people who've managed this - most of them older students to begin with as it's easier to get your head around). Composition's what you really want to learn - It's worth getting a few piano grades (or at least a good grounding), just so you can read music and find keys quickly, but composition's what really untangles the mess... It is difficult learning from books because they don't always make sense of how simple everything is - They often present it as rules without meanings, when in fact it's often just one or two meanings which spawn a lot of rules and conventions you could just as easily work out for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 should say, the real point of learning theory is not to help you make music, but to help you understand how other people have made music... you can be Grade 8 theory and not be able to write an original nursery rhyme... but what it does let you do is understand other people's music... so if you hear something you like in an Aphex Twin tune, or in an orchestral piece, you can demystify it and understand what's going on, then develop the idea yourself and use it in your own work... that's what music's about really... all the theory we learn now is just a filtering down of customs and conventions that past composers have tended to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ~ism Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 ok, sorry for going way off the topic here..but i just want to query something that i had previously assumed to be the case, but now am no longer sure about: paulie walnuts = j swift? this whole new name/new member/old member with new name bollocks is confusing the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezeh Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 yep, ism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ~ism Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 yep, ism. cheers EZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2780 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 best track ending of 2005 exile - rage is the beautiful light that struck her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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