For those of you who took/take piano lessons.

[Guest Idiron]

well no, im passionate about this and it was very relevent to both recent and past experiences. its also something that brings up interesting issues about the nature of music. if you really didnt garner anything from what i wrote then move on, or better yet, given your agenda, dont read it. theres better things to do on a monday afternoon. dont waste both of our time.

[Squee]

Yeah, the basic knowledge goes a looooooong way, but it's definitely noticeable that I stopped playing the piano after 1½ years.

[kcinsu]

I have an agenda?

 

look, you wrote stuff I didnt agree with. Im allowed to respond, in any way I like. Dont give me that dont read it shit... I already read it.

[Guest Idiron]

good 4 u

[kcinsu]

Ok, Ill respond to your points in a civilized conversational manner.

 

i think everyone's pretty much hit it on the head but i think it's far

more important to stress the mental temperament from having piano lessons

in the difference between musical diligence and

curiosity/experiment.

 

yes, they are different things... one is creative, one is technical, but

they do go together... if you know how to put whats in your head into

reality, ie having the technical ability to play it, you can experiment

much further.

 

(the shit 'triton' if i was lucky).

 

fixt.

 

i think the lessons help you musically adapt but most importantly

its sheer experimentation and childlike curiosity which ultimately make

you better a better musician

 

agreed

 

- and it resonates throughout the whole music-making process

because for all the synthesizer manuals/music tech magazine tutorials you

read or in the case of piano, songs you diligently learn note by note and

scales you memorize, this all pales in comparison to twisting the knobs,

observing, learning things by ear and just twinkling out notes and

patterns.

 

I see what you're trying to say, but I dont fully agree. Twisting the

knobs, etc is the same as memorizing scales etc. Playing arrpegios is just

like listening to what an lfo is doing. The only difference is that with

scales, you are doing it all manually... but you are still listening to

what effect that arrpegio, for that chord, is doing. same exact thing... I

wouldnt seperate them like you seem to have done.

 

Yes, learning stuff by ear is good, but you make it sound like when you

are practicing piano etc, you arent using your ears... perhaps, if you

arent doing it right... but when doing all this, you SHOULD be listening,

and using your ears.... really internalizing the sounds.

 

I dont think learning stuff should be catagorized... it's all the same,

fundamentally. It just kind of sounds like you're justifying not learning

somethings, by adding weight to other things that you do. I could be

wrong, but thats how that paragraph reads to me.

 

 

this is all very relevent to this weekend - i made a new electronic music

friend! probably shouldve guessed from the facial hair but i thought he

was another random local who'd come back to my house for some bongs.

turned out after i started playing some music that he knew of aphex,

'pusher etc.. and promptly began playing drukqs on the piano, which

naturally caused involuntary wang activation. but my enthusiasm quickly

ebb'd as it was very robotic, and whilst dueting he could not improv

anything, that for all his skills he couldnt just "play in c minor" and

instead i was left to playing along to various diligently learnt piano

dittys. i thought that for an electronic music fan/potential EKT'r he would've at least

twinkled around a few times, had a few piano dittys of his own but it was

not so. just seemed like he had a reel of backed up songs in his

head.

 

that says nothing about learning the piano. he didnt learn the piano, he

learned some patterns he could reproduce. if you really study piano, youll

learn to improvise as well... I guess what Im saying is... if you really

are taking learning an instrument seriously, its not all technical motor

movement, like you seem to be looking at it... but it involves it all!

 

in regards to making specifically electronic music/expeirmental music, the piano

in the first place is probably not too helpfull.

 

ummm... I have major issues with this... almost dont want to get into it,

cause its a huge philosophical tirade... but basically, I think that

people who think experimental music is dissconnected to the past, are

realllllly missing the point. why on earth would the piano not be helpful?

 

the 12 note scale being the basis of music is (forgive the

melodramatic phrasing) a lie that western culture has conformed

to.

 

yes, it is melodramatic... and I wont forgive it... why be so melodramatic, when you know its not truly that way? This is why I think you just like to hear yourself talk.

 

its not a lie... its a system that we've adopted. certainly other parts of the world do it differently... it doesnt mean our system is a lie. sure, there are close minded people who think our system is the only right way... but theyre idiots. But to say that our system is a lie? Thats just dumb. There are reasons why western music evolved they way it did. When you say it like you do, you are kind of counter productive, and it actually makes me wonder if you truly believe that, or just have a hard time expressing points? What I think you meant to say, was "the 12 note scale being the basis of western music is a unique characteristic of western musical history... but it is important to note that in other systems around the world, different approachs are taken." or something to that extent.

 

 

many of my favourite musicians had no conventional musical upbringing, infact many of them had very unconventional ones. having piano lessons or any formal musical lesson i think is tainting a blank canvas... its like placing a bunch of acrylic paints next to the canvas or at worst drawing on a paint by numbers landscape scene. yeah, you're gonna end up with a nice painting to hang in the kitchen but it couldve been a crazy surreal cubist masterpiece (COOL METAPHOR, YEH?).

 

this is what really gets me furious... so Ill try to be calm here. Yes, I bet a lot of your favorite musicians had no conventional musical upbringing... BUT 1. something tells me you dont have a detailed biographical documentation of their lives sp you dont know this for sure, and what youve read could very well be played up to make it sound like they are geniuses that write solely from deeper inspiration... (its a nice marketing technique that never seems to grow old, but is more often then not... played up) and 2. its possible that they ARE geniuses, and therefor telling other people that learning piano will hurt their musical abilities, is silly... because not everyone is a genius. it would be lovely if it worked that way, but its not reality. sorry.

 

and no, its not a cool metaphor... its borderline stupid actually...

 

what does the blank canvas represent? the mind that makes music, or the music itself? You seem to be running your thoughts together.... the fact is... different things work in different ways. if you dont know the natural way acrylic paint works... then you cant control it.... sure, it might lead to cool new discoveries, but you know, you can get the same discoveries, after having learned the proper way... this will fit in the with cubist remark in a moment... ill get back to that thought

 

but you know what you do after you learn how to use acrylics? you experiment. and then? You move onto a new type of paint, or whatever.. . and learn it.... and then experiment. I dont know why people think that experimenting is a substitute for learning.... they are both equally possible to coexist together. I think anyone that says otherwise, is deluding themselves, and quite possibly only saying so, as to make up for/justify what they lack.

 

and the cubist thing... do you really think those artists just started painting "crazy surreal cubist masterpieces"? Please dont say yes. Most of these artists were technically killer at older established forms... it was their knowledge and mastery of the past that allowed them to move forward. Now, this isnt ALWAYS the case, but very often it is. Take any crazy cubist artist, look them up... and try to find their early catalouge... it looks like paint by numbers stuff like you said...

 

 

yet still, the 12 note scale, ie. the piano is still the basis for pretty much everything, or at least a good starting point. whilst the discipline of playing the piano can limit your thinking, and whilst this can be said for the tools too, you dont have to paint within those lines, it's just a case of making a bigger a conscious effort not to.

 

and now you seem to go against all of what you said, and conceede that it really doesnt limit you, as long as you make an effort to avoid it... basically negating everything you said before... which makes me again, think you just like to hear yourself talk.

 

 

Im sorry if this comes off as overly harsh or whatever... but this topic is something IM really passionate about... and I keep coming across people saying the same things over and over, and it grates on me. call me smarmy, or pretentious, or elitist or whatever... maybe I could have said it all more politely... but most people here dont anyways...

[Guest Idiron]

no, i don't think that's harsh, what you wrote is interesting. i was solely looking at this from a music-making perspective, and i should've clarified this.

 

Ok, Ill respond to your points in a civilized conversational manner.

 

i think everyone's pretty much hit it on the head but i think it's far

more important to stress the mental temperament from having piano lessons

in the difference between musical diligence and

curiosity/experiment.

yes, they are different things... one is creative, one is technical, but

they do go together... if you know how to put whats in your head into

reality, ie having the technical ability to play it, you can experiment

much further.

 

hence stressing the latter, because you do have the technical ability to play it if it's in your head. sure it'll be quicker experimenting if you have the technical knowledge but if you were too ordained in for example, knowing it was d minor you would perhaps miss the chance of discovering perhaps an oddly dischordant but gratifying accompanyment.

 

(the shit 'triton' if i was lucky).

 

fixt.

 

true. but to an 11year old it was my first go on a sequencer.

[Guest Idiron]

- and it resonates throughout the whole music-making process

because for all the synthesizer manuals/music tech magazine tutorials you

read or in the case of piano, songs you diligently learn note by note and

scales you memorize, this all pales in comparison to twisting the knobs,

observing, learning things by ear and just twinkling out notes and

patterns.

 

 

I see what you're trying to say, but I dont fully agree. Twisting the

knobs, etc is the same as memorizing scales etc. Playing arrpegios is just

like listening to what an lfo is doing. The only difference is that with

scales, you are doing it all manually... but you are still listening to

what effect that arrpegio, for that chord, is doing. same exact thing... I

wouldnt seperate them like you seem to have done.

 

Yes, learning stuff by ear is good, but you make it sound like when you

are practicing piano etc, you arent using your ears... perhaps, if you

arent doing it right... but when doing all this, you SHOULD be listening,

and using your ears.... really internalizing the sounds.

 

I dont think learning stuff should be catagorized... it's all the same,

fundamentally. It just kind of sounds like you're justifying not learning

somethings, by adding weight to other things that you do. I could be

wrong, but thats how that paragraph reads to me.

 

 

i wasn't and i agree. it comes from my own experience, for both piano and violin where it felt more like learning sequential data, ticking the boxes to get your grade. i think theres an element of truth in the last paragraph. if ide stayed on and not given up i wouldve probably been better off, at least for entertaining guests.

 

this is all very relevent to this weekend - i made a new electronic music

friend! probably shouldve guessed from the facial hair but i thought he

was another random local who'd come back to my house for some bongs.

turned out after i started playing some music that he knew of aphex,

'pusher etc.. and promptly began playing drukqs on the piano, which

naturally caused involuntary wang activation. but my enthusiasm quickly

ebb'd as it was very robotic, and whilst dueting he could not improv

anything, that for all his skills he couldnt just "play in c minor" and

instead i was left to playing along to various diligently learnt piano

dittys. i thought that for an electronic music fan/potential EKT'r he would've at least

twinkled around a few times, had a few piano dittys of his own but it was

not so. just seemed like he had a reel of backed up songs in his

head.

 

 

 

that says nothing about learning the piano. he didnt learn the piano, he

learned some patterns he could reproduce. if you really study piano, youll

learn to improvise as well... I guess what Im saying is... if you really

are taking learning an instrument seriously, its not all technical motor

movement, like you seem to be looking at it... but it involves it all

 

of course you're right, but i was using this as an example to stress the difference not trash learning the piano.

 

in regards to making specifically electronic music/expeirmental music, the piano

in the first place is probably not too helpfull.

 

 

ummm... I have major issues with this... almost dont want to get into it,

cause its a huge philosophical tirade... but basically, I think that

people who think experimental music is dissconnected to the past, are

realllllly missing the point. why on earth would the piano not be helpful?

 

the 12 note scale being the basis of music is (forgive the

melodramatic phrasing) a lie that western culture has conformed

to.

 

 

 

yes, it is melodramatic... and I wont forgive it... why be so melodramatic, when you know its not truly that way? This is why I think you just like to hear yourself talk.

 

its not a lie... its a system that we've adopted. certainly other parts of the world do it differently... it doesnt mean our system is a lie. sure, there are close minded people who think our system is the only right way... but theyre idiots. But to say that our system is a lie? Thats just dumb. There are reasons why western music evolved they way it did. When you say it like you do, you are kind of counter productive, and it actually makes me wonder if you truly believe that, or just have a hard time expressing points? What I think you meant to say, was "the 12 note scale being the basis of western music is a unique characteristic of western musical history... but it is important to note that in other systems around the world, different approachs are taken." or something to that extent.

 

you're just being fickle and patronising. i think youll find that i just like to talk - i dont see how it can be seen any other way than i like this romantic notion that if we were born with the 'swagam' or 43 note scale then music in the conventional scales would sound odd. like our brains are programmed to hear music in a certain way through our culture - everyone's had those moments either on drugs or not when music takes on weird ethereal forms, or ordinary sound suddenly sounds musical. i think you pretend to not realise that im a 20 year old amateur musician, and not a professor so as to be condescending. fuck, my sentence was shorter and got the idea across better.

many of my favourite musicians had no conventional musical upbringing, infact many of them had very unconventional ones. having piano lessons or any formal musical lesson i think is tainting a blank canvas... its like placing a bunch of acrylic paints next to the canvas or at worst drawing on a paint by numbers landscape scene. yeah, you're gonna end up with a nice painting to hang in the kitchen but it couldve been a crazy surreal cubist masterpiece (COOL METAPHOR, YEH?).

 

 

this is what really gets me furious... so Ill try to be calm here. Yes, I bet a lot of your favorite musicians had no conventional musical upbringing... BUT 1. something tells me you dont have a detailed biographical documentation of their lives sp you dont know this for sure, and what youve read could very well be played up to make it sound like they are geniuses that write solely from deeper inspiration... (its a nice marketing technique that never seems to grow old, but is more often then not... played up) and 2. its possible that they ARE geniuses, and therefor telling other people that learning piano will hurt their musical abilities, is silly... because not everyone is a genius. it would be lovely if it worked that way, but its not reality. sorry.

 

and no, its not a cool metaphor... its borderline stupid actually...

 

what does the blank canvas represent? the mind that makes music, or the music itself? You seem to be running your thoughts together.... the fact is... different things work in different ways. if you dont know the natural way acrylic paint works... then you cant control it.... sure, it might lead to cool new discoveries, but you know, you can get the same discoveries, after having learned the proper way... this will fit in the with cubist remark in a moment... ill get back to that thought

 

but you know what you do after you learn how to use acrylics? you experiment. and then? You move onto a new type of paint, or whatever.. . and learn it.... and then experiment. I dont know why people think that experimenting is a substitute for learning.... they are both equally possible to coexist together. I think anyone that says otherwise, is deluding themselves, and quite possibly only saying so, as to make up for/justify what they lack.

 

and the cubist thing... do you really think those artists just started painting "crazy surreal cubist masterpieces"? Please dont say yes. Most of these artists were technically killer at older established forms... it was their knowledge and mastery of the past that allowed them to move forward. Now, this isnt ALWAYS the case, but very often it is. Take any crazy cubist artist, look them up... and try to find their early catalouge... it looks like paint by numbers stuff like you said...

 

 

so sorry for getting you furious. sarcastically saying it was a 'COOL METAPHOR, YEH?' must offend your superior sensibilities alot. i like how you took my metaphor and expanded though, but addressing it would be flagging a dead horse as was only a throw away thought (hence the 'cool metaphor' bit). i would like to say though - what if i were to replace cubism in that metaphor with contemporary/conceptual art? do you think this is more about how you see 'high art'? would you think conceptual artists are justifying what they lack in technical skills?

 

i'm not seperating experimenting and learning. i'm saying i percieve experimenting as an ultimately more gratifying and interesting way of learning, thats all.

 

yet still, the 12 note scale, ie. the piano is still the basis for pretty much everything, or at least a good starting point. whilst the discipline of playing the piano can limit your thinking, and whilst this can be said for the tools too, you dont have to paint within those lines, it's just a case of making a bigger a conscious effort not to.

 

 

and now you seem to go against all of what you said, and conceede that it really doesnt limit you, as long as you make an effort to avoid it... basically negating everything you said before... which makes me again, think you just like to hear yourself talk.

 

erm, the 12 notes scale is the basis of everything. basically all music is produced in it. its what we hear all the time. i think you miss the point of what i wrote, its my thoughts in response to a thread. its something to be discussed, i want to be told im wrong or made to think, not shot down by a smarmy git.

 

Im sorry if this comes off as overly harsh or whatever... but this topic is something IM really passionate about... and I keep coming across people saying the same things over and over, and it grates on me. call me smarmy, or pretentious, or elitist or whatever... maybe I could have said it all more politely... but most people here dont anyways...

 

perhaps its too naive to think that you can project what would be an interesting conversation in real life on the internet but i guess this is the place where people to attempt to score brownie points through fickle argument.

 

 

i also believe that if i had written what i wrote with more ... and 'like's and just generally less competently then you wouldnt have acted like this. it wouldnt have triggered your 'i know more' complex so badly and perhaps you wouldve been less... rude.

[Guest Idiron]

not even gonna fix that burger

[kcinsu]

you are so full of shit. you are one of the rudest loud mouthed people here, but when I say something even slightly condescending to you, you go off calling me smarmy and that I have to prove I know more then you etc.

 

you put your 2 cents in about every damn topic on this forum, and often in a rude way... I come in to chime in on the ONE topic I hold close to my heart, and of course it must mean I have to prove I know more then you.

 

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone... I just like to refute what you say, on the chance that someone comes in and takes you seriously for half a second and gets led in a ignorant direction.

 

 

look, generally youre a good kid... you think more then most your age, but you let it go to your head, and so you think you know everything, and everyone else knows nothing, and its apparent in your writing... it usually doesnt get to me much, but on this one topic, it annoys the shit out of me, so I say something. not to prove to you that I know more, but to 1. give people more correct information and 2. make you realize you dont know it all. humility is a good thing...

 

Ill respond to your responses next... I just wanted to say that^

[kcinsu]

i wasn't and i agree. it comes from my own experience, for both piano and violin where it felt more like learning sequential data, ticking the boxes to get your grade. i think theres an element of truth in the last paragraph. if ide stayed on and not given up i wouldve probably been better off, at least for entertaining guests.

 

Yes, I think we have a general agreement on things, but its more the details and how you've said them that I take issue with... to nit pick? No... because the devil is in the details (omgboc) and can often be just as important as the main point.

 

I totally agree that it takes that sense of wonder and excitement to really get stuff out of music, Im not disagreeing on that there.... but it came off that you were assuming technical isnt related, or cant be as exciting... Im just saying it all fits together. You say its just "ticking the boxes to get your grade" and Im just saying, that that was YOUR feelings on it... for others, it does carry that sense of awe and importance, and leads to a deeper creative understanding, as they are related.

 

 

 

of course you're right, but i was using this as an example to stress the difference not trash learning the piano.

 

alrighty. good.

 

you're just being fickle and patronizing. i think youll find that i just like to talk - i dont see how it can be seen any other way than i like this romantic notion that if we were born with the 'swagam' or 43 note scale then music in the conventional scales would sound odd. like our brains are programmed to hear music in a certain way through our culture - everyone's had those moments either on drugs or not when music takes on weird ethereal forms, or ordinary sound suddenly sounds musical. i think you pretend to not realise that im a 20 year old amateur musician, and not a professor so as to be condescending. fuck, my sentence was shorter and got the idea across better.

 

how am I being fickle?

 

Patronizing? only if you take it as such. I was just trying to clearly state what I was thinking... and esp on the internet, sometimes that means talking simply and perhaps more blunt, to make sure people are getting the ideas you are trying to convey. I wasnt trying to treat you like a child...

 

...however your last little bit makes it seem like you want to be? Im not a professor either. Im only 24. These arent crazy concepts to understand... Im trying to explain them to you. My whole point here is to explain to you how I see it... not to "pwn" you.

 

But yes, our minds are programed a certain way... its called culture, society, and upbringing. The only thing I was taking issue with, was how you worded it... "a lie" I just didnt see the point in phrasing it that way... it makes it sound sinister and deceptive, and its not that way... so it just seemed like you were sensationalizing it, cause you like to talk (like you admitted). Im more concerned with expressing fundamental ideas, then to just "talk" and have a stylish/flashy writing style, or whatever you want to call it.

 

If I really thought you were some amateur that won't "get it" I wouldnt even bother trying to explain this stuff... I WAS ignoring that you are 20... not to be condescending... quite the opposite... its because I think you are smart, and can understand what Im saying, if youd just get past the notion you have in your head that Im trying to pwn you and boost my ego by arguing with some of the things you say.

 

I swear to you, Im not trying to pwn you... if you havent noticed, I respond much less to threads lately, as I just dont care enough to get into the topics... but this one topic I care a lot about, and so yes, I am taking the time to respond... not out of arrogance, but a genuine love of music and topics related to it. I think if you'd have met me in real life, youd realize what I say shouldnt be taken so offensively. Yes, I get agitated from time to time, and act rude, but if you have problems with that, leave the internets, as thats how it goes... you do it far more then me... so dont cry when it happens to you. I think all of the watmmers Ive met can vouch for my general passion of music, and the general lack of condescending comments. Ask ten fingers ten toes, A/D, braintree etc.

 

Also, I think people, yourself included, hold a bias against me for having studied music. Imagine you didnt know anything about my personal life... imagine that was my first post.... it would seem much less condescending and academic to you, because you wouldnt have this preconceived idea in your head about me. Again, if you knew me, youd know how unacademic I am. It may come off that way when I talk seriously about stuff... but its not a nose to the sky kind of serious... its a I fucking love talking about this kind of serious.

 

I think a lot of the problem here, is that I think wording is very important when expressing ideas. Like, when you say stuff like "lies" I think it is counter productive to understanding the subject... I prefer the long winded way of doing it, so its clear we are all thinking about it in the same way. See, I read "lies" and it makes me think of bad etc... when you said it, it was for dramatic effect... people associate words differently than others... so thats why I may talk in a way that you think is academic and professor-like... because I am trying to convey my thoughts to people, via text, on a message board populated by people from all over the world.

 

Yes, your sentence was shorter, but no it didn't get the idea across better... it complicated it, and was some what vague and elusive in what it was you meant exactly.

 

so sorry for getting you furious. sarcastically saying it was a 'COOL METAPHOR, YEH?' must offend your superior sensibilities alot. i like how you took my metaphor and expanded though, but addressing it would be flagging a dead horse as was only a throw away thought (hence the 'cool metaphor' bit). i would like to say though - what if i were to replace cubism in that metaphor with contemporary/conceptual art? do you think this is more about how you see 'high art'? would you think conceptual artists are justifying what they lack in technical skills?

 

See? You call it my superior sensibilities... you for some reason get the impression that I think Im superior... like its a battle we are having. But you missed the point of what I said got me furious... the thing that gets me furious, is when people think that the creative is separate from the technical... and that by learning, you taint the creative side. THATS what makes me furious, as I hear it time and time again, and I completely disagree with it.

 

Im not sure what your question is regarding conceptual art. I think a lot of conceptual artists also know about less conceptual art, and they know their history.... sure there are artists that pull shit from out of their ass, but its the ones that actually know what they are doing and have thought about why theey are doing i t, that are the successful ones. But to answer your question, NO I dont think conceptual artists are covering up for lack of technical skill. They have just chosen a form of expression that may not require the same technical skill set. I bet a lot of them are very good artists of "normal" art or whatever you want to call it.

 

 

 

i'm not separating experimenting and learning. i'm saying i perceive experimenting as an ultimately more gratifying and interesting way of learning, thats all.

 

Fair enough. For me personally, I find many ways of learning equally gratifying. If anything, it's my personal opinion that experimenting, while very useful, can be counterproductive, esp in areas that have already been covered by others... when you experiment, it takes longer, and sometimes you come to wrong conclusions. My teacher had a saying, to make this point... "a guy pulls off a ticks leg, and tells it to jump, and it does. he pulls off all the legs on one side, and tells it to jump... it does, although poorly... finally, he pulls off all the legs, and tells it to jump, and the tick doesnt move. the man concludes that if you pull off a ticks legs, it goes deaf." the point is, when you experiment, you may come to downright wrong conclusions, based on your observations. THATS why I think its important to learn from others, AND experiment on your own. Im really not knocking experimentation... I just think that there will most often be people who have experimented with things long before you, and have figured out their nature in a way much deeper then you (and you is a general term here... not YOU specifically). It just seems like in this day and age, people celebrate doing it on your own, and learning by yourself... and while there is a beauty in that, it is ultimately limiting, and I dont like to see people limit themselves.

 

erm, the 12 notes scale is the basis of everything. basically all music is produced in it. its what we hear all the time. i think you miss the point of what i wrote, its my thoughts in response to a thread. its something to be discussed, i want to be told im wrong or made to think, not shot down by a smarmy git.

 

maybe I did miss your point. If so, Im sorry... but like I said before, Im not trying to just shoot you down, Im trying to explain and discuss... and isnt being shot down, being told youre wrong? I feel like if anyone disagrees with you, you take it as a personal act of aggressiveness, and not dialogue, which you say you want.

 

But no, the 12 note scale isnt the basis of everything... its the basis of alot, and most of western things. its what we, as westerners hear all the time. Im not sure we are even disagreeing on this pointt... so I dont know what else to say. Sorry if I took your meaning wrong, but again, this reinforces my point about clarity in discussing abstract concepts... some times it NEEDS to be kind of academically stated, so that everyone gets the essence of what is being said.

 

 

perhaps its too naive to think that you can project what would be an interesting conversation in real life on the internet but i guess this is the place where people to attempt to score brownie points through fickle argument.

 

not at all... again, I dont see why you are set on believing Im doing this as act of "scoring brownie points". And why do you keep saying fickle? Im not going back and forth on things...

 

So, here is your chance to attempt serious interesting conversation... I responded to all of your points, and tried doing it in a calmer manner. I think I have a lot of points here that you could address further... and Id like you to, because again, I like discussing this stuff. So, you can continue calling me a smarmy git, or you can just address my points.

 

i also believe that if i had written what i wrote with more ... and 'like's and just generally less competently then you wouldnt have acted like this. it wouldnt have triggered your 'i know more' complex so badly and perhaps you wouldve been less... rude.

 

I really just think you think of me this way, so thats how it comes off to you. It didnt trigger an i know more complex... it triggered my desire to discuss this topic and add my views, that at times go against yours. Can you handle that?

[Guest Idiron]

insults followed by niceties, classic.

 

youve completely taken what ive said wrongly, in future i'll try and make sure i don't seem like i think i know it all, because it's quite the opposite. i wrote down my thoughts as they came to me, theyre not set in stone, theyre observations which hopefully will evolve and mature. i really honestly dont want them to be read like that. i meant the post was competent/overly done english. it reads pretty loftily which isnt the intention - its probably because i havnt written creativly in a while so i sort of exercise superfluous language when theres no need. adding words like "i feel", "i think" "perhaps" etc... isnt enough and can backfire. ive actually been avoiding giving my 2 cents for a couple of months now.

 

i called you smarmy git because i was expecting more posts like that, and well yeah, we all have our faults. i didnt think about these consequences which are fucking tedious. i guess were both trying to save face, so ill just say that im sure if we had this conversation in real life it wouldve probably been pleasant (tonally things wouldve been said with humility at least). rebellious jedi apprentice and all that.

 

i wasn't and i agree. it comes from my own experience, for both piano and violin where it felt more like learning sequential data, ticking the boxes to get your grade. i think theres an element of truth in the last paragraph. if ide stayed on and not given up i wouldve probably been better off, at least for entertaining guests.

 

Yes, I think we have a general agreement on things, but its more the details and how you've said them that I take issue with... to nit pick? No... because the devil is in the details (omgboc) and can often be just as important as the main point.

 

I totally agree that it takes that sense of wonder and excitement to really get stuff out of music, Im not disagreeing on that there.... but it came off that you were assuming technical isnt related, or cant be as exciting... Im just saying it all fits together. You say its just "ticking the boxes to get your grade" and Im just saying, that that was YOUR feelings on it... for others, it does carry that sense of awe and importance, and leads to a deeper creative understanding, as they are related.

 

 

 

of course you're right, but i was using this as an example to stress the difference not trash learning the piano.

 

alrighty. good.

 

you're just being fickle and patronizing. i think youll find that i just like to talk - i dont see how it can be seen any other way than i like this romantic notion that if we were born with the 'swagam' or 43 note scale then music in the conventional scales would sound odd. like our brains are programmed to hear music in a certain way through our culture - everyone's had those moments either on drugs or not when music takes on weird ethereal forms, or ordinary sound suddenly sounds musical. i think you pretend to not realise that im a 20 year old amateur musician, and not a professor so as to be condescending. fuck, my sentence was shorter and got the idea across better.

 

how am I being fickle?

 

Patronizing? only if you take it as such. I was just trying to clearly state what I was thinking... and esp on the internet, sometimes that means talking simply and perhaps more blunt, to make sure people are getting the ideas you are trying to convey. I wasnt trying to treat you like a child...

 

...however your last little bit makes it seem like you want to be? Im not a professor either. Im only 24. These arent crazy concepts to understand... Im trying to explain them to you. My whole point here is to explain to you how I see it... not to "pwn" you.

 

But yes, our minds are programed a certain way... its called culture, society, and upbringing. The only thing I was taking issue with, was how you worded it... "a lie" I just didnt see the point in phrasing it that way... it makes it sound sinister and deceptive, and its not that way... so it just seemed like you were sensationalizing it, cause you like to talk (like you admitted). Im more concerned with expressing fundamental ideas, then to just "talk" and have a stylish/flashy writing style, or whatever you want to call it.

 

If I really thought you were some amateur that won't "get it" I wouldnt even bother trying to explain this stuff... I WAS ignoring that you are 20... not to be condescending... quite the opposite... its because I think you are smart, and can understand what Im saying, if youd just get past the notion you have in your head that Im trying to pwn you and boost my ego by arguing with some of the things you say.

 

I swear to you, Im not trying to pwn you... if you havent noticed, I respond much less to threads lately, as I just dont care enough to get into the topics... but this one topic I care a lot about, and so yes, I am taking the time to respond... not out of arrogance, but a genuine love of music and topics related to it. I think if you'd have met me in real life, youd realize what I say shouldnt be taken so offensively. Yes, I get agitated from time to time, and act rude, but if you have problems with that, leave the internets, as thats how it goes... you do it far more then me... so dont cry when it happens to you. I think all of the watmmers Ive met can vouch for my general passion of music, and the general lack of condescending comments. Ask ten fingers ten toes, A/D, braintree etc.

 

Also, I think people, yourself included, hold a bias against me for having studied music. Imagine you didnt know anything about my personal life... imagine that was my first post.... it would seem much less condescending and academic to you, because you wouldnt have this preconceived idea in your head about me. Again, if you knew me, youd know how unacademic I am. It may come off that way when I talk seriously about stuff... but its not a nose to the sky kind of serious... its a I fucking love talking about this kind of serious.

 

I think a lot of the problem here, is that I think wording is very important when expressing ideas. Like, when you say stuff like "lies" I think it is counter productive to understanding the subject... I prefer the long winded way of doing it, so its clear we are all thinking about it in the same way. See, I read "lies" and it makes me think of bad etc... when you said it, it was for dramatic effect... people associate words differently than others... so thats why I may talk in a way that you think is academic and professor-like... because I am trying to convey my thoughts to people, via text, on a message board populated by people from all over the world.

 

Yes, your sentence was shorter, but no it didn't get the idea across better... it complicated it, and was some what vague and elusive in what it was you meant exactly.

 

so sorry for getting you furious. sarcastically saying it was a 'COOL METAPHOR, YEH?' must offend your superior sensibilities alot. i like how you took my metaphor and expanded though, but addressing it would be flagging a dead horse as was only a throw away thought (hence the 'cool metaphor' bit). i would like to say though - what if i were to replace cubism in that metaphor with contemporary/conceptual art? do you think this is more about how you see 'high art'? would you think conceptual artists are justifying what they lack in technical skills?

 

See? You call it my superior sensibilities... you for some reason get the impression that I think Im superior... like its a battle we are having. But you missed the point of what I said got me furious... the thing that gets me furious, is when people think that the creative is separate from the technical... and that by learning, you taint the creative side. THATS what makes me furious, as I hear it time and time again, and I completely disagree with it.

 

Im not sure what your question is regarding conceptual art. I think a lot of conceptual artists also know about less conceptual art, and they know their history.... sure there are artists that pull shit from out of their ass, but its the ones that actually know what they are doing and have thought about why theey are doing i t, that are the successful ones. But to answer your question, NO I dont think conceptual artists are covering up for lack of technical skill. They have just chosen a form of expression that may not require the same technical skill set. I bet a lot of them are very good artists of "normal" art or whatever you want to call it.

 

 

 

i'm not separating experimenting and learning. i'm saying i perceive experimenting as an ultimately more gratifying and interesting way of learning, thats all.

 

Fair enough. For me personally, I find many ways of learning equally gratifying. If anything, it's my personal opinion that experimenting, while very useful, can be counterproductive, esp in areas that have already been covered by others... when you experiment, it takes longer, and sometimes you come to wrong conclusions. My teacher had a saying, to make this point... "a guy pulls off a ticks leg, and tells it to jump, and it does. he pulls off all the legs on one side, and tells it to jump... it does, although poorly... finally, he pulls off all the legs, and tells it to jump, and the tick doesnt move. the man concludes that if you pull off a ticks legs, it goes deaf." the point is, when you experiment, you may come to downright wrong conclusions, based on your observations. THATS why I think its important to learn from others, AND experiment on your own. Im really not knocking experimentation... I just think that there will most often be people who have experimented with things long before you, and have figured out their nature in a way much deeper then you (and you is a general term here... not YOU specifically). It just seems like in this day and age, people celebrate doing it on your own, and learning by yourself... and while there is a beauty in that, it is ultimately limiting, and I dont like to see people limit themselves.

 

erm, the 12 notes scale is the basis of everything. basically all music is produced in it. its what we hear all the time. i think you miss the point of what i wrote, its my thoughts in response to a thread. its something to be discussed, i want to be told im wrong or made to think, not shot down by a smarmy git.

 

maybe I did miss your point. If so, Im sorry... but like I said before, Im not trying to just shoot you down, Im trying to explain and discuss... and isnt being shot down, being told youre wrong? I feel like if anyone disagrees with you, you take it as a personal act of aggressiveness, and not dialogue, which you say you want.

 

But no, the 12 note scale isnt the basis of everything... its the basis of alot, and most of western things. its what we, as westerners hear all the time. Im not sure we are even disagreeing on this pointt... so I dont know what else to say. Sorry if I took your meaning wrong, but again, this reinforces my point about clarity in discussing abstract concepts... some times it NEEDS to be kind of academically stated, so that everyone gets the essence of what is being said.

 

 

perhaps its too naive to think that you can project what would be an interesting conversation in real life on the internet but i guess this is the place where people to attempt to score brownie points through fickle argument.

 

not at all... again, I dont see why you are set on believing Im doing this as act of "scoring brownie points". And why do you keep saying fickle? Im not going back and forth on things...

 

So, here is your chance to attempt serious interesting conversation... I responded to all of your points, and tried doing it in a calmer manner. I think I have a lot of points here that you could address further... and Id like you to, because again, I like discussing this stuff. So, you can continue calling me a smarmy git, or you can just address my points.

 

i also believe that if i had written what i wrote with more ... and 'like's and just generally less competently then you wouldnt have acted like this. it wouldnt have triggered your 'i know more' complex so badly and perhaps you wouldve been less... rude.

 

I really just think you think of me this way, so thats how it comes off to you. It didnt trigger an i know more complex... it triggered my desire to discuss this topic and add my views, that at times go against yours. Can you handle that?

 

k, gonna start reading this now. ill PM a response if i have one.

[kcinsu]

yeah, I think we just approached this differently, and our tones clashed.

 

I do stand by my criticisms and niceties though, even if it is "classic"... as I think its important to remind each other sometimes, we dont hate each other, weve just gotten worked up over stuff.

 

I actually think if we sat down at the pub, we'd have a grand conversation, which would be very pleasant... and not in a fake way.

 

So let me say I am sincerely sorry for this little exchange. I mean it. If you dont want to believe it, thats fine... but there isnt more I can do than to say it.

[Guest Idiron]

cant really be bothered to spend any more time on this but of course i extend a sincere apology to you too. its the nature of the internet, without the human aspect things get out of hand, and just like with anything irrelevancy comes in and then theres the risk of snowballing into the most retarded pastime known to man, arguing on the internet! now i see orbasurauscrotrot writing something... cripes.

[Guest Mental Eclipse]

I love playing the Piano. I think its helped bring me a better understanding of melodic structure. I tried writing melodies with MIDI piano-rolls in Ableton: Live, but I always go back to the real thing. Playing any instrument provokes inspiration with composition.

[kcinsu]

agreed, a good ending point idi.

 

I have lots more in general to say on this topic, but not for tonight. I've over typed my brains out.