Getting a stable MIDI-config

[Lucas]

Hi,

 

I'd like to try getting a more stable configuration for playing live. MIDI is well known for doing weird stuff when too much information is flowing through the machines and it might be good to exchange about the different issues we've all had and how we solved them (or how we didn't...).

 

MIDI-newbie tip:

 

If you're new to MIDI and want to work with a config like mine (see below), using a MIDI THRU box is the first thing you wanna do because MIDI daisy chains are a nightmare.

 

Right now, my config is MPC500 MIDI out to MIDI in of my MIDI THRU box (Yamaha YME8). The box is redirecting the signal to four machines: Korg Electribe SX1, Novation Bass Station 2, Yamaha TX81Z and CS1X.

 

Now here is a problem I never really solved and I'm afraid it happens during a concert: sometimes when the MPC runs a sequence, a MIDI note of one synths gets randomly stuck. Sometimes I just have to quickly reload the preset on the synth in question and the note will stop playing. But sometimes I have to send a general „MIDI panic“, which you can actually just do by pressing STOP three times quickly on the MPC500. Which really sucks in a live situation. It also already happened that the bugged synth just keeps playing even after I'm doing that, in which case I have to restart the synth completely...

 

I figured out those problems are less recurent since I tried to lighten the MIDI sequences I use. (for example, I removed practically all the channel pressure information being recorded when I record a loop with my MIDI keyboard). Still, this is happening (more or less randomly) every time I use the config so it's still a priority for me to solve it somehow.

 

Any ideas?...

[TubularCorporation]

Filtering out MIDI messages that you don't use could be helpful, it sounds likely that something in your setup is getting data faster than it can handle for one reason or another. I don't know if the YME8 can do any filtering, but if you can get a good price on a MOTU Midi Express XT they work great in standalone mode for routing and filtering and stuff, on top of being a solid 8 in 8 out USB interface (I think there was a non USB version too, so watch out for that if you shop for one). Maybe the YME8 itself has issues. Does it always happen on the same synth? If not then it's most likely either the MPC orthe YME8.

 

It's also possible that it's just a bug in the MPC500, I know the stock OSes from the 1000 onward got progressively worse and buggier (one of the reasons almost everyone installs JJOS on the 1000/2500).

 

I've had that trouble a couple times with my MPC2000 and certain synths, usually newer stuff. I never got around to actually hooking it up to a midi event monitor and checking, but my gut feeling is that it has to do with the MPC either not sending true MIDI note off messages or sending true note off messages to synths that don't handle them properly. Since all the was back in the 80s programmers have been cheating by using a note on with a velocity of 0 instead of a true MIDI note off message, since it a note on message is a byte or two smaller than a note off, and MIDI is so slow to begin with that every bit of data you transmit counts. It's basically a de facto standard now (I actually read a manual just this month for a recent synth that actually specifically said that a note with a velocity of zero WAS a "note off message" which is completely wrong) but completely violates the actual MIDI specification, so I imagine it could cause issues with certain gear.

[sweepstakes]

I think there's usually an "All Notes Off" CC you can fling at most synths to do this. Not sure how the MPC500 works, but if you have enough spare tracks or you can set pads to transmit CCs, you might just fire one of these at the stuck synth at a good moment.

[Lucas]

thanks both for you replies

 

 

Filtering out MIDI messages that you don't use could be helpful, it sounds likely that something in your setup is getting data faster than it can handle for one reason or another. I don't know if the YME8 can do any filtering, but if you can get a good price on a MOTU Midi Express XT they work great in standalone mode for routing and filtering and stuff, on top of being a solid 8 in 8 out USB interface (I think there was a non USB version too, so watch out for that if you shop for one). Maybe the YME8 itself has issues. Does it always happen on the same synth? If not then it's most likely either the MPC orthe YME8.

 

It's also possible that it's just a bug in the MPC500, I know the stock OSes from the 1000 onward got progressively worse and buggier (one of the reasons almost everyone installs JJOS on the 1000/2500).

 

I've had that trouble a couple times with my MPC2000 and certain synths, usually newer stuff. I never got around to actually hooking it up to a midi event monitor and checking, but my gut feeling is that it has to do with the MPC either not sending true MIDI note off messages or sending true note off messages to synths that don't handle them properly. Since all the was back in the 80s programmers have been cheating by using a note on with a velocity of 0 instead of a true MIDI note off message, since it a note on message is a byte or two smaller than a note off, and MIDI is so slow to begin with that every bit of data you transmit counts. It's basically a de facto standard now (I actually read a manual just this month for a recent synth that actually specifically said that a note with a velocity of zero WAS a "note off message" which is completely wrong) but completely violates the actual MIDI specification, so I imagine it could cause issues with certain gear.

 

that sounds like a very well documented opinion. Just before ~one week ago I still didn't have the YME8 and had to go through my PC loading MIDI OX before I redistributed the MIDI signal. Forgot to check what happened in the monitor but I'll do when I have time, this is very interesting to know, I'll keep you updated. But yeah I don't have any experiences with other MPCs but I have the feeling the 500 is very cheap, I quite didn't chose it (borrowed it from my room-mate) but keep being annoyed by it constantly, pretty unpractical and buggy in general.

 

 

I think there's usually an "All Notes Off" CC you can fling at most synths to do this. Not sure how the MPC500 works, but if you have enough spare tracks or you can set pads to transmit CCs, you might just fire one of these at the stuck synth at a good moment.

 

i actually tried doing that in a "buggy" sequence about two weeks ago, but unfortunately the stuck note happening there go into the category "stuck note that I can't unstuck with a MPC MIDI 'panic' ", and it didn't work with that special CC neither (CC121 if I remember well? or 123 don't remember).

 

As I'm writing I just thought about one thing: I have to check but it might be that the fault comes from the keyboard controller. I suddenly have a gut feeling that this might be only happening on the synths which MPC's track is selected (config is: MPC receives MIDI from my Novation BS2 which has local mode deactivated ; the MIDI output of the BS2 is redirected to the different synth depending on the track currently being selected on the MPC).

 

During the live set though, I don't need to use the BS2 as an external controller and could re-configure and BS2 in local mode and make the MPC not redirecting the MIDI signal. Excited about that, I'll write some updates.

[sweepstakes]

Too bad the 500 is so buggy, I hate not being able to trust tools. The 1000 with JJOS has been rock solid for me.

[Lucas]

Yeah, I actually want to buy one since about a year but never really found the money for it (priorities, etc...). Still on the top of the list though. Beginning of next year hopefully?...

[Ingwe]

if you're planning on upgrading from the mpc500, consider upgrading to something that has multiple independent midi outs. (like an older mpc or possibly one of the newer hardware sequencers on the market)

[TubularCorporation]

Bugginess can be really weird on some of this stuff. My main sequencer for the last 7 or 8 years has been the MPC2kxl with a card reader, and when I first got it I had all sorts of issues, mostly related to CF file storage but also lockups when I witched screens too fast, things like that. I never made the connection before just now, but tthey all went away after I added the 8 output card and since then I haven't had a single software problem with it.

 

/tangent

[Lucas]

I just checked what the MPC actually transmits when pressing the STOP button three times, and it does actually sends a CC123 "All Notes Off" to all channels. I'm just gonna try rehearse my live set now, do the thing with the MPC stopping transmit MIDI output from the BS2 and see what happens.

 

if you're planning on upgrading from the mpc500, consider upgrading to something that has multiple independent midi outs. (like an older mpc or possibly one of the newer hardware sequencers on the market)

 

I was quite decided on the MPC1000 but I'll have another look when I'll have the money. Any particular newer sequencer you were thinking about?

[sweepstakes]

MPC1000 has 2 MIDI outs. Was always enough for me but I also have a rackmount MIDI processor and only used it with 1 or 2 synths at a time anyway.

[Ingwe]

I just checked what the MPC actually transmits when pressing the STOP button three times, and it does actually sends a CC123 "All Notes Off" to all channels. I'm just gonna try rehearse my live set now, do the thing with the MPC stopping transmit MIDI output from the BS2 and see what happens.

 

if you're planning on upgrading from the mpc500, consider upgrading to something that has multiple independent midi outs. (like an older mpc or possibly one of the newer hardware sequencers on the market)

 

I was quite decided on the MPC1000 but I'll have another look when I'll have the money. Any particular newer sequencer you were thinking about?

 

there's the social entropy engine and the squarp pyramid, but i think both of those are 2 midi outs each. 2 outs could be all you need though (and mpc1000 would then be fine as well)

[Lucas]

further (late) investigation of those problems: like I already wrote I tried to configure the BS2 and and the MPC back so that the former just works in local mode and the MPC doesn't transmit other MIDI info than the one recorded in its tracks AND... it didn't change anything.

 

Ah yes and I forgot to write about another problem happening from times to times (actually as often as the stuck MIDI note one): sometimes, one of the synths slightly loses the sync and goes a bit out of the beat. I guess it comes from a little delay happening at some point into one track of the MIDI sequence. Afterwards the synth keeps playing at the right BPM but slightly late, which kills the groove of the track. The stop/play solution fixes that.

 

I'm kind of worried about all those little dysfunctions because I really do want to start with this live set and I'm actually already in contact with a couple of people who'll probably let me play soon. I have a first confirmed date on the 27th of November and possibly another one just before and I'm realizing I'll probably simply go there with my buggy MIDI setup and won't be able to avoid a couple of moments in the set where I'll have to break its flow.

 

I was still planning on erasing all the sequences of the MPC which I don't use for the live set but I don't really believe it will change anything. If some of you still have other ideas for me I'd be glad to try them.

[cthulu nation]

I'm new here, but interested in this thread.. ive been trying to put together a live set with this same kind of setup; mpc500 + kenton midi thru + blofeld and some volcas. i haven't come across the stuck notes that you mention; maybe some bad midi cable or the thru? ive had hung notes when using crappy usb midi converters.. is your thru box powered?

 

but I'm also interested in how you set this up in the MPC500 - I'm about to give up on this mpc track/sequence system.. can't seem to get different clips (midi sequences) playing on different channels.. and to be able to change different clips on different channels separately? are you doing this with track mutes?

 

if you have a minute to break it down Id appreciate it!

[Lucas]

I'm new here, but interested in this thread.. ive been trying to put together a live set with this same kind of setup; mpc500 + kenton midi thru + blofeld and some volcas. i haven't come across the stuck notes that you mention; maybe some bad midi cable or the thru? ive had hung notes when using crappy usb midi converters.. is your thru box powered?

 

but I'm also interested in how you set this up in the MPC500 - I'm about to give up on this mpc track/sequence system.. can't seem to get different clips (midi sequences) playing on different channels.. and to be able to change different clips on different channels separately? are you doing this with track mutes?

 

if you have a minute to break it down Id appreciate it!

 

hey, very nice to read I'm not alone on this one. please don't give up lol. I'll come back later today and answer your questions!

[Lucas]

so... regarding my config:

 

I had a Miditech MIDI Thru 4 / Filter, which is supposed to be powered by its MIDI input but that didn't work with the MPC500 (:/) so I opted for the momentary solution of running the MPC MIDI output through my PC and using the MIDI out of my FIrebox interface to feed the MIDI input of the Thru Box (worked that way).

 

Anyways, I recently replaced the Miditech by a Yamaha YME8 which has its own power supply and I didn't notice any change in the stability of the config.

 

Could anyone please confirm that such MIDI stability problems might come from a deficient cable? I'd be surprised about that but if it can indeed be the case I'd be glad to fix the bugs that way.

 

Regarding how I use the MPC500 for that live set:

 

MPC500 is set as MIDI Thru « Per Track » (MODE>MIDI/SYNC), which lets each track outputing its MIDI information on the MIDI channel it's been set to (in Track params).

 

That's just the way I think it's handy but I saved a preset sequence which I use all the time as a base for my tracks: it has track 1-3 outputing on the channel of my Novation BS2, tracks 4-6 → TX81Z, tracks 7-9 → CS1X and tracks 10-12 for various things depending on the track.

 

I do use track mutes for making the track structure evolve (I never used the Song feature so far). Example: track (I mean song ;-) starts with all tracks muted except say the first bass melody which is track 1. Then I'll un-mute a track every time I want something new to play. When I want to switch the loop for just one instrument, I press two pads simultaneously in order to mute the loop playing until now and to un-mute the one I want to start playing now.

 

When a more drastic change has to happen in the track (I mean song!!), I usually use a new sequence where I pre-programmed which track will be playing. With the above method it's indeed hard to switch too much tracks at the same time.

 

Regarding rhythm pattern changes (Electribe SX does the beat), I switch them manually on the ESX, except when I have to do too much stuff when that shoud happen: so far I just used a program change programmed in one track of the MPC at one place in the live set.

 

Regarding program changes: I use the second (B) pad layer to send the hardware all the information it needs before a new song starts. Wanted to explain that more in detail but it's pretty tricky so you can PM me if you want info on that precise thing. I also started using CC7 (volume) to adapt the volume of each instrument, which helps a great deal: it was kind of a hell when I tried to use my mixer in real time for mixing live ; now I almost just use it for fade in / outs and for spontaneously muting/unmutting some stuff. When all my faders are set to unity gain (0dB), everything should play at the right volume.

 

The learning curve with that config was pretty constant so far. Apart from what I just described, the majority of the live action goes to know twiddling on the actual synths + rhythm manipulation on the ESX. It might sound a lot to do like that but it's really something which can be learned. I know I'm still not done with that and I'm excited about how my performance will improve in the future. I'll really go for a MPC1000 as soon as I can though......

 

Hope this helps, looking forward to your feedback!

[cthulu nation]

thanks for the explanation - this is exactly what i wanted to do but couldn't get it working.. will have to get at it again. its a good tip to have a sequence template .. ill try that out.

 

sorry i can't be more help with stuck notes.. i just noticed this problem here when i was using a cheapo usb interface and it went away when i upgraded.

[Lucas]

but didn't you ever come across any of the problems I experienced with the MPC500? What about the one of one track getting slightly out of sync? I sometimes wonder if the unit I have is somewhat defective. Don't hesitate to give some feedback here when you've done more with that config!

[cthulu nation]

hey - no, i never had that problem. and since i was usually getting the sample midi file playing on both synths i probably would have noticed.. but then again i didn't spend too much time playing through tracks, mostly just trying to get it to work.

 

i will give it another try though, using some of your tips..

 

i see you're in Leipzig, if you need to try your set out on a different 500 and you find yourself in berlin you could swing by the studio to try it out on mine.

[Lucas]

hey, sorry I didn't find the time to answer your post. That's nice from you to propose that. I guess I'll be further advanced with my problem by the next time I'll happen to be in Berlin, but your proposition made me think I also could find how to borrow and test another MPC500 with my setup at home. after further searches it might be indeed that the MPC I have has some deficiency. I'll post news when I'll have some.