When you're doing a key change like that do you have a look at the circle of fifths or whatever to decide where to go, or just bash on till it sounds right? I usually do the latter but it would probably would make sense to do the former
dont usually do the whole circle of fifths thing..just play around with chords until it feels "right" i guess...circle of fifths stuff is good tho.
3 minutes ago, picklish said:
The track sounds like someone, can't quite think who........
The transition to the keychange toward the end of this. (At roughly 4 mins)
I had been sitting there trying so many weird solutions to transitioning into that keychange and then that one happened..just felt..right and smooth i guess. In my mind its an elegant solution to a stupid, self inflicted problem.
I tend to get kinda annoyed with a lot of my own music so its kinda refreshing to have a moment like that one.
It seems to me that the current state of things is that people whose main output is hot air (middlemen, managers, marketers, speculators, frauds, politicians) tend to get paid well and people who actually produce anything don't usually get paid as much
in big bucks music world, words speak volumes louder than actions..fake it till ya make it and all that...
im quite hungover and so bloody ready to unload my thoughts on this topic. Strap onIN..in..strap in..christ, my head hurts...
fuck spotify, spotify is shit. its shit for musicians and its shit to use because it lulls you into a sense of security thinking all the music you want will magically be there which half of it just isnt..they dont tell people that though
as a musician putting music on spotify you're just licensing your stuff to their terms..its a loosing deal, the house always wins. that being said, its a bit churlish to treat spotify like the be all and end all of a music career, its a supplement..a coverage vehicle AND NOTHING ELSE..its basically a big advert rather than an alternative to selling music BUT it isnt sold that way to its customers. it should be treated like the trial version of music consumption, leading people to go on to support artists directly. or like a convenient way to consume music in times when you arent able to access your paid music.
also, fuck spotify, that "3-4 years" or whateverquote is one of the most abusive things he could've said. speaks waves about how detached the CEO's are to their actual business. the 20 US cents i get every month from them really bring a warm fuzzy feeling to the table, at least a dollar or two was made off my music and im only seeing peanuts of it..mm yeah thats just encouraging. ALSO, i thought spotify wouldve jumped on the bandwagon with some perks due to the ol 'rona sitchiation, like bandcamp, mixcloud and even soundcloud made some semblance of effort (even if it is just a paypal link..) but spotify couldve got some outstanding PR material for waiving some of their extortionate cut..but i guess they just didnt realise what was going on in the outside world past everyone suddenly using their services all day every day because theres fuckin nothin else to do.
"Mr Ek! Our company is reaching an all time high of $50Bn value!"
"Those customers sure are generous this quarter, Jenkins, if theres one thing me and my company need its simply just more money! Our 100 million dollar a month real estate locations across the globe are in need of real attention..the European HQ's Gilded Bidets arent shiny enough.."
Remember, Mr Ek, without musicians you're nothing. So just do everything in your power to make us all feel cheated and insignificant..pah, as if we have any power..its fun to pretend
Ek wants to make people believe that music isnt a craft..what he's setting out to do with spotify is to plant this idea in consumers heads that music is just a thoughtless service, carried out for the benefit of no one...changing the perception of music to that of a factory line where products seemingly just appear and can be sold for a quick buck but the workers on the line see a few dollars a day, totally disproportionate to the amount that the item they just built are consumed by the customer for.
im not going to stop using spotify as an artist. in my eyes, its just another advert for my music. im never gonna see anything past peanuts from it but if it means 1 more person can love or hate what im dumping out then im happy. It's an awful, manipulative and criminal business..leeching off the backs of hard working craftspeople like a fucking money parasite but sadly theres no alternative to just playing along with their abusive games.
I hate the current climate of music consumption, i hate the people involved with manipulating consumers into abusing the people that make the music that makes their lives brighter and more fulfilling and most of all, i hate the fucking guy who's running the whole operation..changing the landscape of wider music consumption for the absolute worst, providing a twisted idea of how to fairly enjoy on of the greatest things we humans have to celebrate. Music is more than just a fucking cattle auction, its one of the most deeply ingrained human experiences, and its being slaughtered for a quick buck.
leaflet = one sheet of paper, might be folded in a way you have more pages, but is basically one "leaf", basic information, like a flyer, promotional or propaganda
pamphlet = more than a leaflet, also information is expanded, like an article...
I don't know really
the suffix "let" also implies they are both smaller versions of something too..so like..is the hierarchy Leaflet > Leaf > Pamphlet > Pam ??
Have you tried to limit yourself to one instance of each processor ? Often I get much, much, much better results that way.
I've also found that most of the times, compression > EQ works perfectly : the comp to control dynamics, density and movement (as well as some subtle tone shaping if going for a colored), then EQ to rebalance / fix spectrum (also stereo image if working in M/S) and finally limiting / clipping. Saturation, when needed, can go anywhere in the chain, it really depends on what it's supposed to address / enhance : for instance, before a compressor to tame peaks and ease the compressor, or after an EQ so that they complement each other, or to shave peaks before a limiter.
-12LUFS is a healthy loudness target, if only it was standard! I can't wait for Soundcloud to implement loudness normalisation like most streaming services, I've had to push masters into absurd loudness just for SC way too often, to rival all the other squashed to death DIY masters on that platform
yeah i have tried limiting to one process but ive found doing incremental processing works quite well for me personally. I think aswell it depends on what processor your using, ableton's compressors tend to get out of control if you go too heavy on them hence having a couple in the chain to gradually build up with like that but with something like ozone or those real nice waves ones you could defo do it with just one. compression > eq is good sometimes too, ive done it on a couple tracks but as a producer ive got more experience using the eq first so its more comfortable, what is music production without comfort zones
interesting stuff about saturation there, i'll give it a go..i usually just ad tiny amounts of saturation to beef up the sound not usually to affect the compressor in that way..to control peaks ive always just ued the attack on the comp personally, lots of good bits to try in there tho will give em a go!
-12 seems to be a pretty good standard for streaming, i think its close to what sc uses but they change it every now and then i think..im sure theres a detailed specs on sc's algorithm somewhere..never really looked for it just made sure my tracks are somewhat consistently dynamic so they dont go super quiet
Someone's welcome to take a punt at this if they fancy it, I'm happy with the track and the mix but it is what it is, i.e. bedroom/hobbyist level. I've always been shy of compression, just beginning to learn my way around it so my stuff's always on the quiet side.
Also, incredibly basic-arsed question, but when you're sending stuff to a M.E. do you generally send a finished track or do you send them the stems?
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this is the kind of process i'll do to a track before uploading to soundcloud, its not a pro master by any means but gets the whole track sitting around -12dB LUFs. i think i mightve overcooked the eq a bit there too..
usually, you'll just send a single bounce with a bit of headroom..i think some engineers might do it with stems but that would probably cost so much more to get
I'm glad it's all cool then The ambient intro of your tunes is super lush by the way. If going for an old-school esthetic, I think some sorts of buss processing would definitely work : as if all the drums were coming out of the same sampler / compressor. Genuinely curious : how did you saturate those drums ? What keeps on puzzling me is that usually, saturation helps reducing crest factor between peaks and body of the sound while here it sounds like it make the drum buss more dynamic ?!
SSL AWS you say ? Nice !!!
yeah it wouldve been ultra old skool to buss the drums like that, but with the amount of different channels going on it would be an absolute nightmare to keep them all under control
i'll have to have a look at the project again to give a proper answer to the saturation question but i think it was just a lot of units applying very slight software saturation in the chain, maybe on a parallel buss with some gating so the transients weren't totally smushed out
yeah was super lucky to have access to it, did a lot of mixdowns on it fuckin lovely console. only regret is not using the bus comp more, that things a beaut!
Believe it or not, I spent a lot of time trying to write the most constructive post I could, and not to eventually come across as a total asshole. I'd should have phrased it differently now that I've re-read it, mea culpa.
It can also be read as my double failure to achieve something worth sharing.
I'm by no mean criticizing the tune itself (it's pretty cool actually), but if I were asked to master that tune I'd suggest the artist to improve the drum mix so that in the end the track sounds as good as it can. It'll always sound so much better when fixed in the mix, no matter who masters it, and in my opinion here it's an easy, identifiable and quick fix.
It was easy for me to identify issues as I haven't spend the (emotional) effort, nor the time / energy / involvement writing and producing the tune. And because I know how reliable are my monitors. Not because I'm on par with Beau Thomas and Mandy Parnell (guess what, I'm definitely not :D)
The total lack of context / reference confused me too. From my experience, and from what I've witnessed / been told / read etc... it's much more effective to pick a 15/30 seconds long part of the track that sums what the tune is about (sonically and musically), and to spend most time working on that part. Here I have no clue what the entire track can be like
I'd rather be suggested modifications that could improve my track (and learn something / improve my skills in the process) rather than have my work mastered no matter what, for a sub-par result (or, if you prefer, a result that wouldn't meet my expectations). Actually it happened to one my tracks : the whole mini-LP mastering sessions went super smooth, then for the final track I honestly did a terrible, terrible, terrible job when mixing it. The mastering engineer did it best, but in the end suggested a few alterations. I came back at my place, reworked the tune, came back the next day, let the ME validate the revision (or not). He did, and he did a great job mastering it.
Whenever possible, I'll now book a listening session with my mastering engineer a week or two before the mastering session, so that I have time to fix whatever issues (s)he hears, and to do so directly in the mix. It'll always sound so much better.
it all checked out mate, its very interesting to hear what a different engineer would do on the track. I think also having that feedback from the engineer is really constructive too, music's a learning game and it fuckin rewarding to learn another perspective on something you just spent so long exclusively hearing and deafening yourself to. Fresh ears and all that!
god i suck at watmm formatting posts, didnt mean to double post there
Sorry but I struggle to hear a finished mix here, nor something reliably representative of the full tune : it's impossible to tell if the track will remain beat-driven or if melodies will be added later ? In both cases, the tune will require different treatment.
The main issue here are the drums IMO : they are quite saturated, yet too spiky / too dynamic, which prevents transparent and / or musical additional, competitive loudness. There's not much hierarchy in the drum kit, so everything stands in the foreground, upfront, and consequently EQing that mix is super challenging. I bet fixing that kick drum would already makes things a lot better though.
The raw esthetic isn't the issue here though, if the drums were more erm contained (still talking about the mix, not the drum programming) it would be a whole different story.
I gave it an honest try, twice... and trashed the 2 attempts. The masters were better than the mix, but I wasn't satisfied. I'm not sure the artist would have been either TBH.
What worked :
- low-ratio compression gave it some much needed density (but didn't address peaks fully, wasn't the point here anyway) and overall movement
- along some low-end remodeling, a relatively narrowish dB boost at ~ 160 Hz (in the mids, as in M/S) made the bassline fuller and more pleasant (it's not solid enough in the mix (to my ears), especially for such a drill n bass, post-jungle track), but also brought up some nastiness in the kick / drums.
- a super gentle / broad, stereo, 1dB cut ~ 900 Hz pocketed the snares and opened up the mix nicely
- it was relatively easy to make the tune wider without losing its focus / center solidity (and without compromising mono-compatibility either).
What didn't work :
- various degrees / sorts of saturations to tame peaks. It raised the RMS, but wasn't convincing enough.
- I gave both clipping and limiting a try, and nothing sounded good enough either. I prefer to limit/clip last, once I've got nice balance / density with EQ/comp, it's always worked better for me that.
Maybe I should have tried to raise the level first, and then to EQ etc... into the limiter / clipper.
I hope that post comes out in a positive, constructive way.
PS : the main loop was roughly at -18 LU (peaks at -1,8 dB FS), raised it to a bit more than -10 (peaks at -.5dB FS, true peak), tops. I suppose I could get much cleaner results if ignoring loudness imperatives.
a lot of that made perfect sense, i think its not entirely useful to have such a short clip to reference as that whole track is like..6 mins long with a fair bit of dynamic range between the sections. plus, the rest of the ep was taken into consideration when mastering this no doubt, so all in all it was more for demonstration about dynamic range control between that quieter section and that loud bit which is probably the loudest part of the whole record. (whole track is here). (and it was mastered for vinyl so im sure there were some limitations goin on there too)
also, about the mix, yeah it wasnt great. the way the track was produced was a bit stupid, each drum sample hit had its own channel in ableton and there was a messy web of groups and sends. mixed down on an SSL AWS desk got it much tighter but still, yeah needed a proper sort out and frankly i didnt feel like putting another string of hours into what was a overwhelming project. some would say "it had that old skool charm of rough mixed" ..or something like that
the track has some really quiet moments, as did the EP as a whole, so I do think the engineer did a really good job finding a middleground between making it more punchy and controlled without destroying the quieter, more gentle sections. Would be really interested to hear what a different engineer wouldve done to it. maybe in the future when i got the cash to burn it would be interesting sending one track to a bunch of different engineers and seein what they all do different.
i'd love to hear the before and after mastering of a track from a WATMM-er. does anybody have an example they'd like to share? i'm especially interested in one that the original artist / composer is satisfied with.
heres a snippet from the premaster and the master for the track by koschitsky. might work on a quick and dirty home master version but wont promise anythin..if anyone wants to have a pop at it feel free
does typing in a comedy font make boring shit more interesting? worth a go i guess..
it depends what you want from the master, just uploading to soundcloud or something like that all you really need to do it get a free LUFs meter and get it sitting around -12dB LUFs so it soundcloud doesnt fuck wit the dynamics of the tracks. essentially, when you upload they will analyse the audio file and apply something similar to a normaliser..making sure the traks are around the same dynamic range and average loudness also helps you keep a consistency across your music so one track isnt bastard loud and another teeny and quiet.
its all just very very fine eq-ing and veeery slight compressor work to get the LUFs to a nice, consistent amount, tho of course its very project dependant so..yeah its kind of a part of the production process ideally..maybe idk? if u wanna sell it or get it pressed, best off going to a professional for sure they know wot they doin, it can be pricy depending on where you go but fuck like, the difference it makes is bananas
personally, automatic mastering services like landr and even the auto master in Ozone seem like a bad idea..especially if you want to be giving the people listening the best experience of your music, take control of the sound and learn to master OR get a pro with experience in your respective musical field to have a go at it..landr makes electronic music sound a bit flat imho, doesnt sound as bad on band projects with a good mix, i think its designed more with Rock sorta things in mind so..for us, i dont think its the best move really.
using youtube for music has one major, unmissable downside..the faux visualiser on the tab (in opera anyways) doesnt actually react to the sound. this is, in my opinion, unacceptable and causes me massive levels of distress everytime i see it.
Guys, i think the new countdown is for a new album. If you consider it from Japanese time, it ends at midnight of July 7, which is a Friday... So I'm guessing it's a new release.
VIP presale for 10273 Haunted House starts at midnight tonight. It's got a whoppin' 3241 pieces for 299,- bucks, so price/part ratio is actually pretty decent.
It's the latest addition to the Fairground sets, but at the same time the first one under the new 18+ line aimed at, well, adults. New box design looks really good IMO.
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The ambient intro of your tunes is super lush by the way. If going for an old-school esthetic, I think some sorts of buss processing would definitely work : as if all the drums were coming out of the same sampler / compressor. Genuinely curious : how did you saturate those drums ? What keeps on puzzling me is that usually, saturation helps reducing crest factor between peaks and body of the sound while here it sounds like it make the drum buss more dynamic ?!
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The ambient intro of your tunes is super lush by the way. If going for an old-school esthetic, I think some sorts of buss processing would definitely work : as if all the drums were coming out of the same sampler / compressor. Genuinely curious : how did you saturate those drums ? What keeps on puzzling me is that usually, saturation helps reducing crest factor between peaks and body of the sound while here it sounds like it make the drum buss more dynamic ?!
Your personal favourite of your own tunes
in EKT General Discussion
Posted · Edited by mause
yoo this is wild, nice work!
strong Djrum vibes with the violins and vocals, luv it