Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Hey, so I've been asked to master a tv commercial and the tech info I've been given is the following: R68 -9db and I have no idea what rules apply to that? Usually I would just master it following the EBU R128 or ITU-R BS.1770-3 rules/law and be done with it. Has anyone ever stumbled upon this before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Hey, so I've been asked to master a tv commercial and the tech info I've been given is the following: R68 -9db and I have no idea what rules apply to that? Usually I would just master it following the EBU R128 or ITU-R BS.1770-3 rules/law and be done with it. Has anyone ever stumbled upon this before? For what broadcaster? You could call or email them for their tech spec sheet. -9dBFS would probably just mean max peak. Usually tv adverts don't follow LKFS standards, but each broadcaster is different in that regard. This might help? https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_297-spikofski_klar.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Hey, so I've been asked to master a tv commercial and the tech info I've been given is the following: R68 -9db and I have no idea what rules apply to that? Usually I would just master it following the EBU R128 or ITU-R BS.1770-3 rules/law and be done with it. Has anyone ever stumbled upon this before? For what broadcaster? You could call or email them for their tech spec sheet. -9dBFS would probably just mean max peak. Usually tv adverts don't follow LKFS standards, but each broadcaster is different in that regard. This might help? https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_297-spikofski_klar.pdf I don't know unfortunately, but I've asked for a tech sheet. It's the whole R68 that confuses me... but if it's simply -9dBFS then... well... pretty easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 From what I read, R68 is based on the old PPM peak metering which really shouldn't be used much anymore. I would bet a mix at -9dBFS max truepeak with a -18dBFS alignment 1k tone at the beginning of the mix (the tech specs should say where to place the 1k tone) would be suffice. I really doubt broadcasters have a monkey watching a PPM meter for QC anymore, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 From what I read, R68 is based on the old PPM peak metering which really shouldn't be used much anymore. I would bet a mix at -9dBFS max truepeak with a -18dBFS alignment 1k tone at the beginning of the mix (the tech specs should say where to place the 1k tone) would be suffice. I really doubt broadcasters have a monkey watching a PPM meter for QC anymore, but I could be wrong. Yeah, that seems REALLY old school. I'm gonna ask my client exactly what the tv station wants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Yes. Radio-Canada (French CBC) used the VU spec until 4 or 5 years ago. Watching VU meters for both the left channel and the right channel in real-time was the most hellish archaic BS ever. And you had to buy the same VU rack meters they used since digital VUs aren't always accurate and those VUs are like $3000. Such ridiculousness.Good luck with your search for an answer. Most likely, EBU R128 standards would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Haha, thanks! I'll let you know how everything goes ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 is this standard why TV sounds like ass (or does TV sound ass in /spite/ of it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 is this standard why TV sounds like ass (or does TV sound ass in /spite/ of it) TV sounds like ass because there are broadcast loudness standards that sound engineers push to their limits. I'm guilty of this as well, because everyone does this so if I don't my mix will sound weird compared to everyone else's and my client wouldn't like that. The broadcast loudness standards are pretty cool though, because they prevent programs, commercials, movies etc. from being ridiculously loud compared to everything else. Remember back in the day, when you had been watching the news and the commercials came on and everyone grabbed their remote controls to turn down the volume? Well, this is one of the things the broadcast loudness standards prevents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Loudness standards work really well for the most part. Most broadcasters, in North America anyway, follow -24 +1/-1 LKFS which usually brings all television shows around the same loudness. The only downside is that most shows will sound relatively the same - very little in dynamics and the dialogue is always around the same volume whether it's whispered or yelled. I've tried to sneak some louder passaged in some mixes only to be rejected and having to remix those bits.Whether it sounds like ass on some channels depends on what they are doing on their end. Sometimes they have their limiters out of whack which brings a bunch of noise in mixes to the forefront or you hear pumping. Digital cable boxes sometimes have a compressor on which can also screw with the mix. I generally don't listen to my mixes on TV since it can be so depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Whether it sounds like ass on some channels depends on what they are doing on their end. Sometimes they have their limiters out of whack which brings a bunch of noise in mixes to the forefront or you hear pumping. Digital cable boxes sometimes have a compressor on which can also screw with the mix. I generally don't listen to my mixes on TV since it can be so depressing. THIS! I don't think I've ever mixed anything for broadcast that sounded the way I had produced it once it was shown on tv. Also, I was watching The Walking Dead one day for some reason and when no one was talking the crickets were just as loud as the dialogue. I'm pretty sure the sound engineer meant for it to sound like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Whether it sounds like ass on some channels depends on what they are doing on their end. Sometimes they have their limiters out of whack which brings a bunch of noise in mixes to the forefront or you hear pumping. Digital cable boxes sometimes have a compressor on which can also screw with the mix. I generally don't listen to my mixes on TV since it can be so depressing. THIS! I don't think I've ever mixed anything for broadcast that sounded the way I had produced it once it was shown on tv. Also, I was watching The Walking Dead one day for some reason and when no one was talking the crickets were just as loud as the dialogue. I'm pretty sure the sound engineer meant for it to sound like that. The crickets could be intentional for something like Walking Dead. You can get away with creative mixing on a show like that which is fun. I mostly work on TV doc series and it gets formulaic. Talking heads, ride the music up and down with a bit of birds/wind/residential amb for the b-roll shots. Throw in a few footsteps here, a door opening there, car passing by, etc etc etc. Fiction is where it's at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Do you mostly do advertisements, Squee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Whether it sounds like ass on some channels depends on what they are doing on their end. Sometimes they have their limiters out of whack which brings a bunch of noise in mixes to the forefront or you hear pumping. Digital cable boxes sometimes have a compressor on which can also screw with the mix. I generally don't listen to my mixes on TV since it can be so depressing. THIS! I don't think I've ever mixed anything for broadcast that sounded the way I had produced it once it was shown on tv. Also, I was watching The Walking Dead one day for some reason and when no one was talking the crickets were just as loud as the dialogue. I'm pretty sure the sound engineer meant for it to sound like that. The crickets could be intentional for something like Walking Dead. You can get away with creative mixing on a show like that which is fun. I mostly work on TV doc series and it gets formulaic. Talking heads, ride the music up and down with a bit of birds/wind/residential amb for the b-roll shots. Throw in a few footsteps here, a door opening there, car passing by, etc etc etc. Fiction is where it's at. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound intentional. I think it's a limiter that's at play because it almost sounds like the dialogue is side chained to the ambience with a very slow release, so once they stop talking the crickets slooooowly fade back in. I actually really want to work on a documentary at one point. Mostly because of how documentaries have changed over the last couple of years and I imagine it can be a lot of fun - but I get what you're saying about it being a tiny bit tedious. Do you mostly do advertisements, Squee? I work at a voice over company where I master shit all day long. But I also have my own one-man company where I do sound design and music for movies, commercials, brand films, video games etc. So once I get home from work I head straight to my other studio and work on all the fun stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Ah, yes, the slow release is a give away to a limiter being set totally wrong. Blech.Documentaries can be fun, but TV doc leaves little room for creativity. It's mostly just filling holes, denoising interviews and balancing.Sound design is fun. I haven't got any video game gigs yet, but I'd like to. I'd love to do more comedy and sci-fi stuff. I'm working (procrastinating) on a 30min doc right now on a small African island's struggle with climate change which is OK. I at least get to break out some ambiences I don't usually get to use which is a plus. ;)Back to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbpete Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Woah R68 is kinda archaic, thought R128 had been the standard for ages (maybe just here in Europe) R68 is -9db peak, so as long as you've got a limiter set to that (maybe -9.5 or -10 for safety) you'll be fine. Have to deal with that shite every day, only have a dbfs monitor but all the QC people that check my stuff seem to do checks in LUFS, EBUs, PPMs .... basically nothing I actually am able to monitor so I normally just fire and hope ! But yeah set the limiter to not peak above that and you should be OK.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Woah R68 is kinda archaic, thought R128 had been the standard for ages (maybe just here in Europe) R68 is -9db peak, so as long as you've got a limiter set to that (maybe -9.5 or -10 for safety) you'll be fine. Have to deal with that shite every day, only have a dbfs monitor but all the QC people that check my stuff seem to do checks in LUFS, EBUs, PPMs .... basically nothing I actually am able to monitor so I normally just fire and hope ! But yeah set the limiter to not peak above that and you should be OK.... What meter are you using? The Waves Dorrough meter has been a blessing since it came out. It helped me immensely to getting mixes into spec. I also use the Dolby Media Meter for true LKFS assurance, but it's so expensive. And it was so hard to buy for some reason; it's like you have to be accepted by the Freemasons to be able to buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbpete Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 At work the monitors have metering on them, but at home Toneboosters/TB Barricade as a limiter and TB EBULoudness just to check levels. All yours for a combined price of just under €40 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 At work the monitors have metering on them, but at home Toneboosters/TB Barricade as a limiter and TB EBULoudness just to check levels. All yours for a combined price of just under €40 ! omg, Dolby are such shysters. TB EBULoudness seems do most of what the DMM does for less than a tenth of the price. No AAX versions though, Pro Tools being the other shyster company... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Ok, so my client's client is confusing the hell out of me at the moment... They keep on talking about R68 but sent me a tech sheet where EBU R128 -23LUFS is mentioned. I hate it when people make me doubt myself. But just so I'm sure... they simply want me to master it with EBU R128 -23LUFS in mind, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbpete Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Looks like R128 for those three mentioned territories and R68 for others. To be honest maybe just do it for whatever standard you're most comfortable with and they can always ask you to resend it if too loud or quiet (or you could send two versions, each limited to whichever standard peak level) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Looks like R128 for those three mentioned territories and R68 for others. To be honest maybe just do it for whatever standard you're most comfortable with and they can always ask you to resend it if too loud or quiet (or you could send two versions, each limited to whichever standard peak level) Ah, you're righ... man, I should really learn to read things more carefully. But yeah, I think I'm gonna do a -9dBFS version and one that matches R128. I found this in the R68-2000 document that floating around online... EBU Technical Recommendation R68 - 2000 Alignment level in digital audio production equipment and in digital audio recorders The EBU has considered various ways of specifying an audio level in digital form and has taken into account: - that the only reliable method to specify a level in a digital signal is by reference to the maximum digital codes allowed by the number of bits in use; - that an audio signal level can be defined in terms of an alignment signal that is a sine wave signal which has a level (the alignment level) which is 9 dB (or 8 dB in some organizations) below the permitted maximum level of the audio programme (the terms “alignment level” and “permitted maximum level” are defined in ITU - R Recommendation BS.645 [2] So I guess -9dBFS would be suitable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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