Having massive problem

[Guest Salient]

How do all these drum n bass producers get their breaks sounding so nice and massive, covering the the entire freq range so nicely? Is it all just EQ, compression and overlaying other samples? There must be some trade secrets in this dept.

 

A lot of the samples I have sound very tinny, so I usually get a 909/808 BD and stick them under the original breaks BDs, that adds kick, but the rest of the break still sounds poo. I think I might be going along the right lines, maybe I just need practice? For instance i know that the for best type of drums for d'n'b, the BD sould have a little high end, and the snare a little mid range etc...

 

Any guidance would be gosh darn appreciated

 

[Guest ezeh]

maybe if you put some samples of your "weak" drums we can help more :)

[Guest carp dreamer]

i currently have the same problem.

[foresense]

somethings I've been toying with lately are multiband distortions and compressor/expanders.

 

mda has a nice multiband distortion vst plugin that could be really nice for what you're trying to get.

[Guest ezeh]

i generally put all the drums thru a compressor (ultrafunk or psp vintage warmer), then eq, then a bit of reverb, that usually works. i´m not into making some very drum-heavy music like dnb but it does the trick.

sometimes i use antares tube for more harshness.

[Guest noradrenalin]

when i got better speakers it seemed to help

 

compression is a bunch of baloney. in my experiance it's not as important as everyone seems to think. just practice using layers and get some better drum samples to begin with. i recommend the drum cd from sample arena.

[Paulie Walnuts]

If you're going for that really modern sound, like Future Engineers, Drum Origins, ASC, etc.. then multiband compression can help a lot...

 

It's not about the compression so much as the dynamic spectral balancing... You compress at a low ratio, like 1.6:1 - threshold right down low - brings all the frequencies more into line with each other... Longish attacks help define transients - More drum machiney sound.

 

There's also a few breaks you need to know inside out...

 

Don't know what sound you're going for, but the Orange break is layered under almost everything these days...

[Fred McGriff]

be sure to vary the volumes on your hits

[Guest Salient]

cheers for the advice, and to answer your question i'm going for the more tech-step ed rush & optical/Bad company type thingimy

[Paulie Walnuts]

get on down to The Grid! (dogsonacid)

 

lots of breakbeat experts... Matt Optical's down there (of ed rush & optical)

[Guest sinkfield]

monitoring is a huuuge part of making stuff sound niice, headphones work for some stuff like panning and stereo imagebut you really need nice speakers also, levels are extremely important, pick a level that isnt too loud or too low and do most of your mixdown at that level ( also listening to your mix reallly low helps to pinpoint what elements are louder in the mix )

and get to know your speakers, a lot of producers carry theyre own speakers cuz they know em good

[Guest Cyanescens]

your drums sound pretty good salient.

[Guest jbible]

Salient...are you using ghost hits?

 

 

From http://www.loopers-delight.com/tips/DnBprogramming.pdf < old but really good drum and bass programming guide

The key (besides the crazy kick/snare rthythms) is the 'ghost' notes. These are quieter notes that

fall on the second half of the 8th-note 'loop bits' discussed earlier. If you want to hear them, try slowing

down any decent breakbeat. It's not obvious, in fact sometimes it's impossible to figure out exactly what

drum instrument it is! It's a quiet snare, often preceeded by a louder, harsher hi-hat, and sometimes a kick.

Anyway, the best way to see this for yourself is to first do the 're-programming 8th-notes' loop trick, and

then try it with a kit you've made yourself.

To make a ghost note, you can use a snare sample from your loop. Make it quiet, and make a few

changes to it, such as a small pitch difference (only a few cents) and maybe turn the lowpass filter on it

down a bit (not much, though). How good this will sound depends on a lot of things. If you have 'made'

a snare by combining two or more different snares, try using the original snare, the one that came with the

loop. It will be less distinctive, and blend in better. It will also help you show off your new snare by

making it stand out a bit more. Also, making two or more different ghost notes for your kit is really a

good idea. You may not use them both, but usually you end up using the one you thought you wouldn't!

And, of course, vary the volume/velocity appropriately when sequencing.

The 'ghost' snare should be tighter than the regular snare. Tighten up the amplitude envelope so

that it has less decay. Sometimes cutting off part of the attack works. Use zero-crossings for that,

though. If there isn't a good enough zero then just do a really quick fade-out in Sound Forge to make one.

Finally, if you have several snares from the same loop, one is bound to sound tighter than the others. Use

it.

Once you've gotten the hang of ghost notes, you will probably put too many in just because you

can. And they will probably be louder than they need to be, too. Go back and fix this while you're still

programming the loop. Sometimes they will need to be louder, other times setting the velocity to '1' in

your sequencer will not be quiet enough, and you'll need to turn them down even more at your sampler.

Experiment to get what you need.

You should also make some variance in your snare sound. The best way to do this is to really

sample some drums that are played live; they will inherently have just-slightly-different sounds. If not,

fine-tune pitch changes are OK. But remember they're never as good as actually having a few different

snares. If you think your snares sound too different, layering the same snare 'tail' onto both the different

attacks should do the trick.

Don't forget about the hi-hat on the beat before the 'ghost', either- it's usually vital to the feel of

your loop. Work with it to make it louder but not obvious. This can be tricky- filters, EQ, effects,

whatever it needs. Remember also that it isn't always needed. But if it is, keep playing with it until it

sounds good. You really won't know until you've added all your other drum and percussion parts, so be

patient. Using a different (but similar) hi hat helps a lot.

You should also have a few different kick drums. They are important, because you can use ghost

kicks as well! The trick is to make them sound similar enough so that they don't stand out too much.

Filter and EQ settings are crucial. But don't over-EQ your beats, and especially not your kicks, as this can

cause all kinds of the headaches later on: mastering bass is difficult and frustrating. Use caution with the

low end. Also, ghost kicks can be moved a bit before the beat to add some feel. Don't be afraid to do this;

just don't overdo it.

[pylonbitch]

always give your drums an 'environment'... a little careful reverb can help with this. don't go nuts... it's always better (imo) if it sounds like the drums are playing in a space, rather than just plugged directly from a drum machine into your brain.

 

 

be careful with attack times of compression and frequencies of kicks being compressed... if your attack time is as near as damnit to the main frequency of the kick, you can get a slight 'shifting' effect, where despite any amount of quantization, the kick sounds slightly late.

 

take low frequencies out of your hihat channels... sometimes up to about 400 hz... this reduces unnecessary energy from the overall sound, and makes any compression easier... it will also clarify your cymbals/ hats.

 

8-10 kHz boost will bring out the ring of a snare... it will also add a lot of definition to your percussion sounds at the high end.. actually, right up to 16 you can do this for similar effects, but try to keep your Q quite narrow... do a frequency sweep on the eq knob to see where this works best for your particular needs.... if a 10-16kHz boost doesn't seem to be affecting the sound of the percussion at all, cut here, as ytou will only be adding unnecessary noise energy again. and hiss if you've recorded any samples from tape.

 

hope that's of some help.

[Guest we_kill_soapscum]

yea for your cubase users out there, remember

 

for drums its often better to filter with Q than to EQ with the track EQ

[eugene]

always give your drums an 'environment'... a little careful reverb can help with this. don't go nuts... it's always better (imo) if it sounds like the drums are playing in a space, rather than just plugged directly from a drum machine into your brain.

 

 

be careful with attack times of compression and frequencies of kicks being compressed... if your attack time is as near as damnit to the main frequency of the kick, you can get a slight 'shifting' effect, where despite any amount of quantization, the kick sounds slightly late.

 

take low frequencies out of your hihat channels... sometimes up to about 400 hz... this reduces unnecessary energy from the overall sound, and makes any compression easier... it will also clarify your cymbals/ hats.

 

8-10 kHz boost will bring out the ring of a snare... it will also add a lot of definition to your percussion sounds at the high end.. actually, right up to 16 you can do this for similar effects, but try to keep your Q quite narrow... do a frequency sweep on the eq knob to see where this works best for your particular needs.... if a 10-16kHz boost doesn't seem to be affecting the sound of the percussion at all, cut here, as ytou will only be adding unnecessary noise energy again. and hiss if you've recorded any samples from tape.

 

hope that's of some help.

 

thats very interesting, ill try some of this

[Guest Salient]

yeah cheers!

[Guest Analogue Wings]

Compressing a sampled acoustic drum has a similar effect to adding reverb, as you are bringing up the tails of the sounds relative to the attacks - i.e. "turning up" the natural reverb that's already present in the sample. That's always going to sound better than adding reverb to the reverb. I like to use my JoeMeek photo-optical compressor for larging up drums in this manner.

[Guest boo]

"show off your new snare" - lol

[Guest welcome to the machine]

^^ second the dogsonacid.com advice, one of the very best forums on the net for production advice.

 

making drums like some of the best releasing artists is a very long process, but it becomes shorter with time. to get a full all-encompassing-of-the-frequency-spectrum sound like you say you need to KNOW you're frequency spectrum. its a long thing to learn but heres some pointers...

 

1 - layer drums, get a kick with a very low sub-thump, eq out all of this kick but the thump you want. (around 50-60 hz is roughly what you're looking for)

 

2- do the same for a kick with a good body, and the same for a kick with good attack (ie the higher sounds). you may need 2 or more kicks to get all of this, and the eq you need will depend on the sample.

 

3 - do the same for snares. a basic guide is that you want a snare with a good thump (around 200hz) and a good tone

(could be anywhere, depending on the snare you choose, but often around 2000hz and above)

 

4 - eq EVERYTHIGH so that it fits into its own frequency spectrum. be aware of what EVERY elemnt in you're break is doing and whether its getting in the way of other parts/hits.

 

5 - bearing this in mind add live drum loops, or more of you're own loops, underneath this 'framework' eqing them carefully to fill the space desired.

 

6 - compression IS important, it can add thump to you're sound, but be carefull of over use.

 

7 - consider the NY compression technique. use compression as a send effect, set it to a ridiculously high setting (so its pumping etc.) and mix a little of this track with you're overall drum mix, this can add allot of punch but be very careful.

 

8 - when you've made you're break using the above you may be happy. enjoy this.

 

9 - then use the above again

 

for dnb style drums layering is paramount. often I have made three or four breaks in this way and been happy with them, then i have added them together and eq'd carefully and been blown away,

 

good drums dont come easily!

 

o

[Guest Analogue Wings]

7 - consider the NY compression technique. use compression as a send effect, set it to a ridiculously high setting (so its pumping etc.) and mix a little of this track with you're overall drum mix, this can add allot of punch but be very careful.

 

You also EQ the compressed track with the frequency you want to emphasise.

 

The Motown engineers who invented this technique called it the "exciting compressor". They boosted tops on the compressed track and used it to add presence to lead vocals without losing the overall performance dynamic.