Dale Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 so hari seldon exists... nice, ty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fiznuthian Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 strange, from what i've read in the zeitgeist and venus project threads a lot of watmm considers this guy and his ideas pure crackpot. seems to all make sense to me, in a simple and logical way. i do think his venus project is something our world isn't ready for yet, but fuck if it isn't a sound goal for us as human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementia Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 so hari seldon exists... nice, ty. Haven't watched the videos but I'm anxious to hear how you've come to this conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 so hari seldon exists... nice, ty. Haven't watched the videos but I'm anxious to hear how you've come to this conclusion. dunno just been reading the foundation series and i seem to be relating everything to it. that guy is kinda how imagine hari seldon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 strange, from what i've read in the zeitgeist and venus project threads a lot of watmm considers this guy and his ideas pure crackpot. seems to all make sense to me, in a simple and logical way. i do think his venus project is something our world isn't ready for yet, but fuck if it isn't a sound goal for us as human beings. what he says in those videos is ok, nothing really new, but he expresses those views in a very lucid way, and that's nice. however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fiznuthian Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 strange, from what i've read in the zeitgeist and venus project threads a lot of watmm considers this guy and his ideas pure crackpot. seems to all make sense to me, in a simple and logical way. i do think his venus project is something our world isn't ready for yet, but fuck if it isn't a sound goal for us as human beings. what he says in those videos is ok, nothing really new, but he expresses those views in a very lucid way, and that's nice. however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. yeah, that's pretty much how i feel about the venus project and it's display in the zeitgeist stuff. the word that comes to mind most is "feasible", in that none of it seems all that feasible at all, but as a theoretical model for human beings on earth the idea really is decent. i.e. give up nationalistic ideas, borders, colours, religion, or anything else that divides our species and fucking have at it. the way a human being develops from birth is an extremely dynamic process, and if surrounded by and taught nothing but outward compassion early on, perhaps we wouldn't have the nightmare scenarios we're dealing with now. in some countries children are taught to kill for their own kind, for no other reason beyond divine right or the hatred for a culture different than their own. so we've proven that in the right environment, humans are capable of extreme behavior, are we not capable of the opposite? i dont know really and i could ramble on with questions all day, but fresco really does give something to think about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I can agree with their model, but they way they are approaching the realization of the project is what i don't understand. if you look at their plan, and its phases you'll get what i mean, for instance, one of the phases is to build a theme park, and another is to make a full length movie, both phases are just about showing people their model. why isn't phase 1, to immediately put these ideas in action? maybe they could try building a small, completely off the grid, self sufficient community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 what he says in those videos is ok, nothing really new, but he expresses those views in a very lucid way, and that's nice. however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. The project itself supports tackling the root causes of abhorrent behaviour - this seems to be something our current society does not do. A lot of corrupt behaviours, you could say, have derived from a money system, for example, business men establishing products via planned obsolescence, people trying to gain advantage over one another in the system when really there's no need if there's no money > you would have access to all the basic necessities of life and more in abundance through technological means. So no, I don't believe Fresco has been studying this direction all his life just to say hey here's a cool city. The project is more of a grass roots movement for social change, I think people emphasise too much on the cities Fresco has modelled and do not pay full attention to the fact that we have a money system that paralyses these creative modes from going any further until you have the necessary funds. People are coming together under the same train of thought and realisation. In fact, Ecuador have asked for Fresco to design a Museum of the future, Turkey would like Fresco to establish the first resource based economy in their country. There are many people, thousands across the world who support these ideas and it's ever growing, I'd even go as far as predicting 1 million supporting the venus project by the end of 2010. 250,000 reportedly signed up to the Zeitgeist Movement website, many are active in creating meetings/lectures and generally communicating the ideas. The New York Times wrote about TZM conference in NY on March 15th. You walk into your supermarket, there's food everywhere, from what seems to be an abundant supply when shelves are stocked up on a daily basis, yet the thing about this is that there is a price tag involved for even the basic sources of living like food. Why don't we go and ask how much fun a starving african kid is having with zero theoretical money to his/her name yet we live here near huge shopping malls and supermarkets full of food in abundance? Does that make sense to people, or is it just a little bit backwards? Something isn't right, which leads people like Fresco to think that this current society is not designed for society, it works in a backwards motion and people are left out or behind because of money. I could get rich at the expense of someone else, you could get a job at the expense of another person who is out of work.. the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. In regards to the "Zeitgeist people" giving the VP a bad name.. in what way is this the case? Are you referring to the first Zeitgeist movie, where it delves deep into 9/11 and false flag terrorism? The first film describes the symptoms of a monetary system and the behaviours that go along with it - then Zeitgeist Addendum, the second film looks to a solution to the problems addressed in the first film. I would not have heard about the venus project if I had not watched the first film (I'm sure I speak on behalf of many people when I say that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mrcopyandpaste Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Zeitgeist - Yes Fresco and Venus Project - No. You're right about Addendum suggesting solutions for the problems raised in the first film. But the solutions were more like rebuttal for their own arguments because of how ridiculous all were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Funktion Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 i reckon jacques fresco is a robot bent on world domination and the propogation of the frescocracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 This was part of a lecture Fresco had done on Thursday 16/04 name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. i haven't found that when i've been on there. In fact plenty of them don't even like the first Zeitgeist film. The majority are there because of Zeitgeist addendum, which isn't even really a conspiracy film at all. That's what's made it into a huge movement. To tar everyone with the same brush is a bit unfair i reckon. If you look on the facebook group there's somewhere in the region of 100-150,000 members and the majority are from places other than the U.S and U.K, so to just pigeon hole such a large number of people from all over the world is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 strange, from what i've read in the zeitgeist and venus project threads a lot of watmm considers this guy and his ideas pure crackpot. seems to all make sense to me, in a simple and logical way. that's watmm for you, unfortunately. As much as i love its sweet musk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I can agree with their model, but they way they are approaching the realization of the project is what i don't understand. if you look at their plan, and its phases you'll get what i mean, for instance, one of the phases is to build a theme park, and another is to make a full length movie, both phases are just about showing people their model. why isn't phase 1, to immediately put these ideas in action? maybe they could try building a small, completely off the grid, self sufficient community. from what i've seen, people are making small communities, that's actually happening. I think the idea at the moment though, is just reaching some sort of critical mass, in terms of getting the word out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 what he says in those videos is ok, nothing really new, but he expresses those views in a very lucid way, and that's nice. however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. The project itself supports tackling the root causes of abhorrent behaviour - this seems to be something our current society does not do. A lot of corrupt behaviours, you could say, have derived from a money system, for example, business men establishing products via planned obsolescence, people trying to gain advantage over one another in the system when really there's no need if there's no money > you would have access to all the basic necessities of life and more in abundance through technological means. you are a fine example of what i'm talking about... all that you are here trying to explain to me is easily understood by anyone dipping their toes into the whole thing, however you assume I'm not understanding the concept. So no, I don't believe Fresco has been studying this direction all his life just to say hey here's a cool city. The project is more of a grass roots movement for social change, I think people emphasise too much on the cities Fresco has modelled and do not pay full attention to the fact that we have a money system that paralyses these creative modes from going any further until you have the necessary funds. People are coming together under the same train of thought and realisation. In fact, Ecuador have asked for Fresco to design a Museum of the future, Turkey would like Fresco to establish the first resource based economy in their country. That's because they propose the cities as the solution that will bring change. In their plan, they propose first building an experimental city to see if there from there they can start to work towards the goals of the project. There are many people, thousands across the world who support these ideas and it's ever growing, I'd even go as far as predicting 1 million supporting the venus project by the end of 2010. 250,000 reportedly signed up to the Zeitgeist Movement website, many are active in creating meetings/lectures and generally communicating the ideas. The New York Times wrote about TZM conference in NY on March 15th. so what? I would join myself if it weren't so inconsistent, and loosely thought out. You walk into your supermarket, there's food everywhere, from what seems to be an abundant supply when shelves are stocked up on a daily basis, yet the thing about this is that there is a price tag involved for even the basic sources of living like food. Why don't we go and ask how much fun a starving african kid is having with zero theoretical money to his/her name yet we live here near huge shopping malls and supermarkets full of food in abundance? Does that make sense to people, or is it just a little bit backwards? Something isn't right, which leads people like Fresco to think that this current society is not designed for society, it works in a backwards motion and people are left out or behind because of money. I could get rich at the expense of someone else, you could get a job at the expense of another person who is out of work.. the list goes on. Again, what makes you think people that don't immediately agree with you don't get this? so what's the solution then? showing a few internet videos? can you actually tell me what's the plan for change or will you just repeat over and over that something is wrong and that a resource based economy is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 however the whole venus project thing doesn't seem as well thought out. you can see their plan in the website, and it all looks good and all but there's a lot of gaps that they do not even begin to address, basically it's "hey! lets build cities that are self sufficient, and eco-friendly, and develop technology and somehow with this we'll get rid of all the vices of a monetary system, because we won't need bus drivers". also the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video that hasn't really put any thought into the matter at all, and thinks anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them is because he hasn't understood. i haven't found that when i've been on there. In fact plenty of them don't even like the first Zeitgeist film. The majority are there because of Zeitgeist addendum, which isn't even really a conspiracy film at all. That's what's made it into a huge movement. To tar everyone with the same brush is a bit unfair i reckon. If you look on the facebook group there's somewhere in the region of 100-150,000 members and the majority are from places other than the U.S and U.K, so to just pigeon hole such a large number of people from all over the world is pointless. Isn't it kinda clear that Zeitgest fans became Zeitgest addendum fans? anyway I won't get into the discussion i will just refer to that live event there was with venus project people, it was like a live press conference or something, people could go there them questions... from the questions asked you could tell who went there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fiznuthian Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 somehow i don't think our current system was... you know... all that well thought out at all. though you won't find that in a U.S. history book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 because it wasn't designed at all duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Isn't it kinda clear that Zeitgest fans became Zeitgeist addendum fans? anyway I won't get into the discussion i will just refer to that live event there was with venus project people, it was like a live press conference or something, people could go there them questions... from the questions asked you could tell who went there. You're talking about a handful of people in New York. As i said, this is a worldwide movement - people of all ages and backgrounds from what i've seen. The movement as it stands actually has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, it's about social change. It's not a truth movement. No-ones trying to bring any ghostly figures who run the world to justice. It's got nothing to do with it. Personally i only saw Zeitgeist 1 about 2 weeks ago, maybe i'm in the minority, i don't know. Anyway, your missing a larger point. The movement was actually started off the back of addendum. The 1st one didn't even stand for anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Isn't it kinda clear that Zeitgest fans became Zeitgeist addendum fans? anyway I won't get into the discussion i will just refer to that live event there was with venus project people, it was like a live press conference or something, people could go there them questions... from the questions asked you could tell who went there. You're talking about a handful of people in New York. As i said, this is a worldwide movement - people of all ages and backgrounds from what i've seen. The movement as it stands actually has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, it's about social change. It's not a truth movement. No-ones trying to bring any ghostly figures who run the world to justice. It's got nothing to do with it. Personally i only saw Zeitgeist 1 about 2 weeks ago, maybe i'm in the minority, i don't know. Anyway, your missing a larger point. The movement was actually started off the back of addendum. The 1st one didn't even stand for anything.... ... the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video.... I can't help but snicker at the mention of "the movement". anyway all i said, as quoted above is that they're giving them bad rep. I never said they are all a bunch of conspiracy types, must i say, yet again, that i'm not in particular against the ideas they are putting forward? even you yourself can't even begin to argue the finer points of the thing but instead repeat over and over again the catchy phrases they say, propaganda one might say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Isn't it kinda clear that Zeitgest fans became Zeitgeist addendum fans? anyway I won't get into the discussion i will just refer to that live event there was with venus project people, it was like a live press conference or something, people could go there them questions... from the questions asked you could tell who went there. You're talking about a handful of people in New York. As i said, this is a worldwide movement - people of all ages and backgrounds from what i've seen. The movement as it stands actually has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, it's about social change. It's not a truth movement. No-ones trying to bring any ghostly figures who run the world to justice. It's got nothing to do with it. Personally i only saw Zeitgeist 1 about 2 weeks ago, maybe i'm in the minority, i don't know. Anyway, your missing a larger point. The movement was actually started off the back of addendum. The 1st one didn't even stand for anything.... ... the fact that they teamed with zeitgeist's people is giving them a bad rep because of the tin foil types are the ones supporting them. and when you argue with a supporter it's just basically some guy repeating phrases from a website or an internet video.... I can't help but snicker at the mention of "the movement". anyway all i said, as quoted above is that they're giving them bad rep. I never said they are all a bunch of conspiracy types, must i say, yet again, that i'm not in particular against the ideas they are putting forward? even you yourself can't even begin to argue the finer points of the thing but instead repeat over and over again the catchy phrases they say, propaganda one might say. What you don't seem to be doing is explaining yourself any further when it comes to you stating that the "Zeitgeist people" give the VP a bad reputation.. in what way do you mean exactly? It also seems that you can relate to a lot about what Fresco has said in the videos I posted.. as if it's all very much "stating the obvious". If you feel that VP is not doing things in the right manner in creating social change > what would be your solution or suggestion(s) to a lot of the abhorrent behaviours in society/war and poverty/technological unemployment.. the list really does go on. I hear many criticisms but absolutely no solutions from yourself > it's like I'm watching a really bad Alex Jones film when I read your posts GORDO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 bad rep keeps serious intelligent people out of it. and the fanatic types keep serious intelligent discussion out of it. well, I can agree with all he says about the current vices of current society, i can agree to an extend in the view that it is the current model of organization that creates many of them. I agree it's all fucked up, i agree that their idea of a possible future is nice and hell, i just don't see them making any plan for transition other than "lets tell people about it". I think many of the abhorrent behavior is part of human nature, even if concepts like property seem to be a human fabrication one could see how it is only natural. so then trade is natural and currency becomes a need. I just don't see how a "resource based economy" would eliminate this. There would still be need for labor no matter how advanced the technology, will the labor be remunerated? how? forced? by who? chosen at random? I also don't have a large scale solution, I don't think it is possible to implement one without the intervention of governments. I think maybe it will take a huge crisis to teach humanity the lesson. What i can say and propose is that everyone on the individual level who is aware of the issues, that cares, and has the resources to do it could and should act on the individual level should act accordingly, and prepare for the future. for instance if i had the money I would try to be as selfsuficient as possible. Maybe even conditions on the planet will FORCE people to do it. this last is most likely. basically the solution would be to get everyone in the same state of mind, and I don't see that happening, ever. But I would like for the world to turn to renewable energy, to be organized on smaller scales instead of on being centralized on big overpopulated cities. That way getting a job would be less of a necessity, because on smaller scales it's easier, I think, that the people around you would be willing to help you get by. But basically all you can do is set an example of how it can be done without depending on the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I can't help but snicker at the mention of "the movement". anyway all i said, as quoted above is that they're giving them bad rep. I never said they are all a bunch of conspiracy types, must i say, yet again, that i'm not in particular against the ideas they are putting forward? even you yourself can't even begin to argue the finer points of the thing but instead repeat over and over again the catchy phrases they say, propaganda one might say. wait a minute, what are you actually going on about? You've lost me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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