Automation and Unemployment

[Guest ezkerraldean]

^^ Why aren't we using this? The answer is simple, it is more profitable to sell a scarce energy resource such as petrol/oil rather than go with something that is in abundance like tapping into the heat under the ground. This is completely backwards, only because we have money in this present system.

lol actually it's cos the vast majority of the earth's surface is totally useless for geothermal energy production, knave

 

you try tapping into geothermal energy in any part of north america east of the rockies and you'll fail spectacularly. or perhaps your suggestion is to power the whole of north america by concreting over the entirity of yellowstone park and building a turbine hall the size of switzerland...

[Dale]

you sound full of sympathy, which is nice, but you also seem ignorant that at the end of the day, it's people that are what's wrong with people. the monetary system fills a void, and something else will fill it when it's gone. any replacement will be flawed and exploited too, because people will be involved. do away with everything you see wrong, hard, stressful, and harmful to human life all the live-long day, but they'll all leave a void that will be filled again. and seeing our track record of short-sightedness and fucking things up very consistently, it's probably not a good idea to fill these voids with sentient robots.

 

i think wanting to fix a system is a good thing, but don't forget that strife is a part of life, it can't be cured. taking a broom out of someone's hand and handing him a paint brush isn't going to end in a rainbow. it's him getting fucked or it'll be someone else.

I agree that people's current values would not suit a different system such as what I propose. This is why there is a movement which promotes social change, called the zeitgeist movement - www.thezeitgeistmovement.com. It currently has around 350,000 members (no one is certain on how many are actually active though) and the movement has only been ongoing for the past 9 months.

It's getting bigger by the days, and soon it will become recognized worldwide. The next step is political pressure, to try and inform politicians and the media of where we are going wrong in this system, and what we can be heading towards for a better future.

 

Firstly, people's current value systems have been learned and picked up in a monetary system. I understand what you mean, that it seems that almost everyone in positions of power like to abuse their use of power in the name of corruption. I would say that it is the environment which creates abhorrent behavior, it is not inherent.

 

The monetary system rewards corruption, I'm sure you can think of many examples where the money system rewards corrupt behavior. It's all about controlling an environment so that we are on the right tracks. Now, if you can have a system in place whereby corrupt behavior is no longer rewarded, where is the incentive to do "wrong" to another human. If a resource based economy ensures an abundant supply of food for a society, why would anyone want to steal? They can't, because when you make things free and available via the use of optimized technology with easy access for all, then the basis of stealing is immediately eliminated. You can steal 50 washing machines and laugh away but who are you really harming? Yourself of course because you now have to look after 50 washing machines, store them and power them.. You can't sell them because there is no money in a resource based economy. There are countless examples of how small, petty crimes like robbery and fraud can be eliminated in a system without money. It is fair to say that wars occur due to resources.. For example some argue that the Iraq War occurred due to resources and also with a profit motive in mind. War is a big, fundamental problem in a money system because the incentive to go to war is based on the huge profits which governments and private contractors make for themselves. How about bridging the difference between nations rather than going to war? Well, it's a nice idea but it will never happen in a monetary system as there is no incentive or "gain" to intellectually bridge the differences between countries and nations.. Where there is money, there is no democracy. We ought to take every soldier in the military and train him/her to become a problem solver.. imagine what we could achieve with an army of scientists and problem solvers working on making the world a better place for everyone. Again, in a money system, there is NO incentive to do this, so we must outgrow a system which rewards corrupt behavior.

 

By the way, if people want to criticize my posts that's fine, I invite you to do so, but whilst typing your replies, think of solutions to problems you think up before making a post. I'd like to hear what people's views are on solutions to problems in a monetary system. I can't see the relevance in trying to maintain this system. Too many people die from poverty, war and exploitation all in the name of profit. Profit before human concern.

I am not a communist, and in no way is a resource based economy linked with communism or socialism. The reason being is because communism and socialism all use money or a credits system.. they have prisons, they have politicians etc.. an RBE does not have any of these characteristics.

[Guest ezkerraldean]

Now, if you can have a system in place whereby corrupt behavior is no longer rewarded, where is the incentive to do "wrong" to another human.

good old xenophobia?

 

i don't see why zeitgeistland would be peaceful.

[Dale]

lol actually it's cos the vast majority of the earth's surface is totally useless for geothermal energy production, knave

Where did you learn this? If this is true, what is your solution or suggestion to this then.. none?

you try tapping into geothermal energy in any part of north america east of the rockies and you'll fail spectacularly. or perhaps your suggestion is to power the whole of north america by concreting over the entirity of yellowstone park and building a turbine hall the size of switzerland...

Even if every country can not utilize geothermal power, there are many alternatives:

 

- Solar power

- Wind Energy

- Tidal power

- Wave power

 

Anyone heard of hydroponics? They create a higher yield of food and vegetation due to the concentrated use of nutrients + water rather than conventional agriculture which uses top soil which is losing it's nutrients and becoming less practical in certain areas of the world. Imagine housing skyscrapers full of hydroponics to feed cities, maintaining a dynamic equilibrium and creating an abundance of food. Food is not scarce when using this method of farming.

 

 

 

I also realize that wiki is not always up to scratch, but here is some Geothermal power data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power

 

"Geothermal electricity is generated in 24 countries around the world including the United States, Iceland, Italy, Germany, Turkey, France, The Netherlands[citation needed], Lithuania[citation needed], New Zealand, Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Russia, the Philippines, Indonesia, the People's Republic of China, Japan and Saint Kitts and Nevis. During 2005, contracts were placed for an additional 0.5 GW of electrical capacity in the United States, while there were also plants under construction in 11 other countries.[20] A number of potential sites are being developed or evaluated in South Australia that are several kilometres in depth. When direct use is included, geothermal power is used in over 70 countries.

Installed geothermal electric capacity as of 2007[15] Country Capacity (MW)

USA 2687

Philippines 1969.7

Indonesia 992

Mexico 953

Italy 810.5

Japan 535.2

New Zealand 471.6

Iceland 421.2

El Salvador 204.2

Costa Rica 162.5

Kenya 128.8

Nicaragua 87.4

Russia 79

Papua-New Guinea 56

Guatemala 53

Turkey 38

China 27.8

Portugal 23

France 14.7

Germany 8.4

Ethiopia 7.3

Austria 1.1

Thailand 0.3

Australia 0.2

TOTAL 9731.9"

 

Now, if you can have a system in place whereby corrupt behavior is no longer rewarded, where is the incentive to do "wrong" to another human.

good old xenophobia?

 

i don't see why zeitgeistland would be peaceful.

Where's your solution to this problem?

[sneaksta303]

ALL OF YOU:

 

[Guest Adjective]

in regards to having a plan B when in disagreement with you:

i can see how it's frustrating for you to only receive criticism and not alternative solutions to what is wrong with the world. but you are saying that the monetary system needs to be done away with and assuming also that everyone else agrees this needs to change.

 

if you're really curious about people's ideas about alternatives to, or our survival after, the monetary system, then make a thread that focuses on that. instead what you've done is present a very drastic change/solution to what not everyone sees as a problem or one of the same degree that you do. that's at least partly why everyone is tearing your posts to bits

[Dale]

in regards to having a plan B when in disagreement with you:

i can see how it's frustrating for you to only receive criticism and not alternative solutions to what is wrong with the world. but you are saying that the monetary system needs to be done away with and assuming also that everyone else agrees this needs to change.

 

if you're really curious about people's ideas about alternatives to, or our survival after, the monetary system, then make a thread that focuses on that. instead what you've done is present a very drastic change/solution to what not everyone sees as a problem or one of the same degree that you do. that's at least partly why everyone is tearing your posts to bits

I'm not here for an ego, I'm merely making this thread to show and demonstrate to people some information in a sincere way, and that there is a potential solution. I don't mean to come across in anyway as arrogant with my views. If someone has a better solution, then I'm all for it, however I have researched this topic for over a year unlike most members here who may have only been told about a resource based economy the very first time they entered this topic. If someone reads 1 page of a book and has a criticism or opinion of it yet they have never actually looked at the book in a lot of detail, would you value their opinion more than let's say someone who reads the whole book itself? Every question I have been asked in this thread is so common to me now and if there was something I could not answer then I would be honest and proclaim that I don't know. I am conducting a lecture in my local area on the zeitgeist movement and the transition between a monetary system and a resource based economy. When it has been filmed and is up on youtube, I'll share it with people here if they are interested.

 

I don't like patchwork methods in this current system. Things like raising money for poor children in Africa and growing your own food to remain sustainable are all great ideas, however you're not actually getting to the root cause of the problems at hand. I see no other alternative way myself, I think maintaining this system is a poor choice and although these ideas I convey sound drastic and extreme to some, there has to be a transitional phase first (which I am not ignorant of). Let's call it Social Therapy -- we need a movement which promotes social change, which is what I am part of.. Adjective, you've stated that it's people that are the problem so let's advocate a system which enhances human values. What did you think of what I posted earlier, when stating that money rewards corrupt behavior and controlling an environment which has no incentive for corruption?

[Guest taxman]

i'm all for doing away with the economy as we know it. the idea that robots are the key to perfecting society by replacing the working class is what i have a problem with.

Remember that perfection or utopia can never be attained. Technology is always becoming emergent and advanced. Things become smaller, faster and more efficient day by day, there's really no final frontiers in a resource based economy. To say there is an end goal is dangerous -- we should always be working on the next best thing.

i would have to argue that the next best thing is a step in the opposite direction. we should be working on making people more self sufficient and secure by their own virtues rather than making them rely entirely on machines set up to do the same things we do today. allowing people to be even more worthless than they already are in terms of being able to survive on their own is what is dangerous. it's the insecurity about being able to support one's self/family that is the start of our problems (crime, greed, corruption, etc).

[Guest James Cagney]

robots are pretty fucking sweet

[Dale]

i would have to argue that the next best thing is a step in the opposite direction. we should be working on making people more self sufficient and secure by their own virtues rather than making them rely entirely on machines set up to do the same things we do today. allowing people to be even more worthless than they already are in terms of being able to survive on their own is what is dangerous. it's the insecurity about being able to support one's self/family that is the start of our problems (crime, greed, corruption, etc).

 

We already rely on machines today, try and look at machines as an extension to human attributes, not an enemy or foe. Machines and technology are extensional, for example, glasses are extensional to allow someone to see clearly, calculators are extensional to humans for they can quickly and efficiently calculate a math sum. Technology is a natural extension to humans beings and if you can not see this then I can't really go any further with this paragraph..

 

People will have more time to think about more important things in their lives if machinery and automation can help with the boring, mundane jobs which can easily be automated. There is no reason for a cashier to be present in a shop, it is totally irrelevant and a waste of life. If the machine takes over the cashier's job, obviously he/she will be left jobless, so this is a reason why we can no longer live within a monetary system. It stifles human and technological progression. Money can not keep up with the advancements of technology. I personally think this is so obvious to society yet people haven't been educated about the capabilities of technology very well by the media. Freeing someone from a boring job does not render them irrelevant at all in a resource based economy. In fact that individual's life becomes enriched with free time to pursue hobbies/working on furthering the advancements in technology and science to help benefit the society etc.. People work all day in this system and wonder what they would do if they had everything they require in the form of necessities but no longer worked in a job, their frame of reference and understanding has been limited by money because it is all they know and understand. A societies incentive is to improve everything on a scientific level in an RBE. It would be seen as an honor for someone to invent a machine which helps society, the reward is seeing people's lives improve, not a Nobel Prize or a cash reward. Can you see the change in human values with this scenario?

[Dale]

robots are pretty fucking sweet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KxjVlaLBmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sVOSlUn7e0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b79pwb6Wlsc

[Guest taxman]

There is no reason for a cashier to be present in a shop

there might not even be any reason for a shop in the first place if people could get the things they really need for themselves.

 

i see what you are saying, but a rbe also leaves the door open for people to sit at home doing nothing of real value every day and still be able to survive. if that's a possibility then it will happen. look at people on welfare today. sure, some of them work hard to better their situation, but some of them sit at home all day watching tv, drinking, and neglecting their children.

 

A societies incentive is to improve everything on a scientific level in an RBE

if you had everything you need in the first place, then why would you? they say necessity is the mother of invention.

 

Can you see the change in human values with this scenario?

not really. i guess that's my problem.

[Guest Adjective]

in regards to having a plan B when in disagreement with you:

i can see how it's frustrating for you to only receive criticism and not alternative solutions to what is wrong with the world. but you are saying that the monetary system needs to be done away with and assuming also that everyone else agrees this needs to change.

 

if you're really curious about people's ideas about alternatives to, or our survival after, the monetary system, then make a thread that focuses on that. instead what you've done is present a very drastic change/solution to what not everyone sees as a problem or one of the same degree that you do. that's at least partly why everyone is tearing your posts to bits

I'm not here for an ego, I'm merely making this thread to show and demonstrate to people some information in a sincere way, and that there is a potential solution. I don't mean to come across in anyway as arrogant with my views. If someone has a better solution, then I'm all for it, however I have researched this topic for over a year unlike most members here who may have only been told about a resource based economy the very first time they entered this topic. If someone reads 1 page of a book and has a criticism or opinion of it yet they have never actually looked at the book in a lot of detail, would you value their opinion more than let's say someone who reads the whole book itself? Every question I have been asked in this thread is so common to me now and if there was something I could not answer then I would be honest and proclaim that I don't know. I am conducting a lecture in my local area on the zeitgeist movement and the transition between a monetary system and a resource based economy. When it has been filmed and is up on youtube, I'll share it with people here if they are interested.

 

I don't like patchwork methods in this current system. Things like raising money for poor children in Africa and growing your own food to remain sustainable are all great ideas, however you're not actually getting to the root cause of the problems at hand. I see no other alternative way myself, I think maintaining this system is a poor choice and although these ideas I convey sound drastic and extreme to some, there has to be a transitional phase first (which I am not ignorant of). Let's call it Social Therapy -- we need a movement which promotes social change, which is what I am part of.. Adjective, you've stated that it's people that are the problem so let's advocate a system which enhances human values. What did you think of what I posted earlier, when stating that money rewards corrupt behavior and controlling an environment which has no incentive for corruption?

i don't know if you agree with this but i think most people have a need to feel empowered. that is the real incentive, not money. to feel safe, to feel that they have something special going on about them, to feel they have some advantage, to feel that they stand out; they have some urge to separate themselves from everyone else. money is just one of the means to those things.

 

so if you take money away, those needs are still there. the crimes you mention, wouldn't exist in the way that they do today, but people will still cheat and harm their way into empowerment. your goal, i think, seems to be to ultimately promote harmony among people, i think? but you're approaching this from the outside in. i think the answer would more likely come from the inside -> outward. change how people think about themselves and others and the rest will fall into place. some well-constructed, contagious, peaceful philosophy seems the most sensible route, rather than a massive technological reaction to a flawed monetary system.

 

you are addressing tons of different things in your posts, or at least it sends my mind in too many different directions when trying to respond, so i tried to simplify things to prevent my brain from overheating.

[Guest ezkerraldean]

Where did you learn this?

lol i'm a geologist old boy

If this is true, what is your solution or suggestion to this then.. none?

NUCLEAR

Anyone heard of hydroponics? They create a higher yield of food and vegetation due to the concentrated use of nutrients + water rather than conventional agriculture which uses top soil which is losing it's nutrients and becoming less practical in certain areas of the world. Imagine housing skyscrapers full of hydroponics to feed cities, maintaining a dynamic equilibrium and creating an abundance of food. Food is not scarce when using this method of farming.

deffo. we should be doing this anyway, zeitgeist or not.

 

i don't see why zeitgeistland would be peaceful.

Where's your solution to this problem?

there isn't one. humans are inherently twats and that won't change.

[sneaksta303]

fuck me why do i keep opening this monstrosity of hypothetical crap?

[Guest Adjective]

fuck me why do i keep opening this monstrosity of hypothetical crap?

because the KY thread hasn't paid off yet

[Guest ezkerraldean]

People will have more time to think about more important things in their lives if machinery and automation can help with the boring, mundane jobs which can easily be automated. There is no reason for a cashier to be present in a shop, it is totally irrelevant and a waste of life.

but people want to be served by a human. when you ring up the bank, you hope to god there's a real person on the other end and not some retarded machine that never seems to offer the option you require and can't understand your accent when you try and tell it your card number, right? i know i do. unless those machines are vastly improved, anyway.

[sneaksta303]

fuck me why do i keep opening this monstrosity of hypothetical crap?

because the KY thread hasn't paid off yet

 

ugh christ i hope it does soon... you have skills brother, FAKE IT!

[Dale]

there might not even be any reason for a shop in the first place if people could get the things they really need for themselves.

I advocate a global system, for everyone. I don't think it is a good idea to leave people on their own pretenses on going about finding their own food. However, if an RBE were to come about, there would not be any forceful action, if someone doesn't want to live in a cybernated city for instance, then that is entirely up to them but the RBE will always remain there for medical help, energy supply, food and water etc.. Although I am in full support of sustainability, getting off the energy grid and growing your own food in this present system, in an RBE, it's different because the food is provided for you and also you don't need to go about maintaining your crops and making sure your energy generator doesn't breakdown.

 

i see what you are saying, but a rbe also leaves the door open for people to sit at home doing nothing of real value every day and still be able to survive. if that's a possibility then it will happen. look at people on welfare today. sure, some of them work hard to better their situation, but some of them sit at home all day watching tv, drinking, and neglecting their children.

I would say that most people who go out drinking on a Friday night do it because of many contributing factors. One of them could be that their life is not that interesting, to an extent where they have been working all week, slaving away in their boring job position and never having any other entertainment opportunities that come their way other than getting drunk to let out their frustration toward the system (in a subconscious way). Obviously, you have to look at people on an individual basis, however I would also state that people living on welfare only just about get by on what they are receiving from the Government and so their lives still remain uninteresting so they resort to drinking, taking drugs and watching the TV. If you open up new avenues and opportunities to people to learn and progress further in life WITHOUT a price tag, then you will see people grow psychologically. The education system in the US and UK stifles learning as money is a direct barrier in order for you to enroll on a course. This is such a huge deterrent to many people who just want to learn, however they can't due to money. So, back to my point - If people in an RBE have their necessities provided for them, and avenues are open up to them without subservience or a price tag, you will see progression occur. I can't imagine why someone would want to slob out watching TV all day in an RBE society if they can travel on a magnetically levitated train system which goes thousands of miles per hour and it routes to anywhere in the world. I can't understand why people would want to get drunk and take drugs if all the necessary equipment relating to music, science, writing books and other hobbies and recreational activities are open up to them with access and availability.

 

A simpler way of imagining this is to picture just about everything as a library. There's no price tag on taking out a book and learning so people feel further empowered to register with their local library. I hope I have answered this in a clearer way than before, let me know if I haven't.

 

if you had everything you need in the first place, then why would you? they say necessity is the mother of invention.

Psychologists and sociologists who proclaim this have only ever lived in a monetary system. Their outlook is immediately blocked by their knowledge of money and not any other alternative system such as a resource based economy. If basic necessities are met, then people would have an urge to look into things they care about because they have the time to do it -- not only this but there is no subservience or price tag involved in conducting an activity or carrying out a science experiment or inventing a machine to improve lives. Human values can change if you control the environment to benefit everyone. People would be taught in schools to value one another as well as the planet - the goal is to witness positive change and improvements in everyone's lives. Again, please let me know if I haven't answered your question as I often go off on tangents and lose my train of thought!

[Guest ezkerraldean]

my god, just read the wiki about Zeitgeist the Movie. what an epic crock of conspiracy-junkie horsecrap.

[Guest ezkerraldean]

I can't understand why people would want to get drunk and take drugs if all the necessary equipment relating to music, science, writing books and other hobbies and recreational activities are open up to them with access and availability.

but being pissed / high is a pleasurable experience. i drink because i enjoy it, not because i'm bored or have nothing else to do.

 

omg i better be able to drink in zeitgeistland

[Dale]

lol i'm a geologist old boy

What are your thoughts on the geothermal energy stats I posted?

 

NUCLEAR

I'll be honest; I haven't actually done too much research into nuclear energy, but I will find some time to look into it over the weekend!

 

Anyone heard of hydroponics? They create a higher yield of food and vegetation due to the concentrated use of nutrients + water rather than conventional agriculture which uses top soil which is losing it's nutrients and becoming less practical in certain areas of the world. Imagine housing skyscrapers full of hydroponics to feed cities, maintaining a dynamic equilibrium and creating an abundance of food. Food is not scarce when using this method of farming.

deffo. we should be doing this anyway, zeitgeist or not.

But can you see that we can't afford to do hydroponic farming on a mass scale in a monetary system? This is the flaw I am trying to address.. It would show to people that there is an abundance of food produced through very little means of labor and use of employees (if machines can nurture the plant life and vegetation) so the cost of hydroponic food would be sold at a much lower price compared to current food prices. It is much better for companies to profit on something which is seen as more scarce and that more work goes into farming the crop being sold so they can drive the prices up. This is completely backwards. Same example applies to oil/petroleum -- we should no longer be using oil due to discoveries in alternative energies to power vehicles however companies prefer profiting on a scarce resource. Again, it all comes down to money which does not promote abundance. I'd like to point out that the enemies of Money are:

 

- Sustainability

- Abundance

- Efficiency

 

humans are inherently twats and that won't change

I would strongly disagree. It's the environment which someone grows up in that contributes to the behaviors of that human being. What do you base this on, unless you're joking around? A baby is not born corrupt. There is more to it than this -- I do not believe however, that we are born as blank slates. That is the most naive statement someone could ever make.

[Dale]

People will have more time to think about more important things in their lives if machinery and automation can help with the boring, mundane jobs which can easily be automated. There is no reason for a cashier to be present in a shop, it is totally irrelevant and a waste of life.

but people want to be served by a human. when you ring up the bank, you hope to god there's a real person on the other end and not some retarded machine that never seems to offer the option you require and can't understand your accent when you try and tell it your card number, right? i know i do. unless those machines are vastly improved, anyway.

People are conditioned to think that it is best to deal with a human being in a customer transaction -- this is all we KNOW in this current system. Being served by machines is still relatively new to us and many people prefer going back to the familiar rather than taking the logical route of understanding. Don't you think is such a selfish outlook on the part of the customer? The customer does not give a crap about the well being of the person working in the call centre, all they want to do is speak to them about their insurance claim or their bank overdraft.. there is no consideration for the employee which I think is a shame. the best way to approach the problem you outlined is to ensure we have the best, most optimized speech recognition technology available which has installed every known accent there is in the world. This might sound drastic, however computers can quite literally handle trillions of bits of information and I don't see this as an impossible task -- however the company who takes on this speech recognition system has to pay money for improvements required so again; money is the barrier when attempting to work towards progressive means. Is this not easy to see?

[Dale]

my god, just read the wiki about Zeitgeist the Movie. what an epic crock of conspiracy-junkie horsecrap.

How are you getting on erecting another "straw man" remark? Do you want any help?

[Guest ezkerraldean]

lol i'm a geologist old boy

What are your thoughts on the geothermal energy stats I posted?

not sure what you want me to say. the amount of energy being produced worldwide currently by that means is pathetically low. i suppose you could do loads of ultra-deep geothermal exploitation, which would be workable across most of the earth's surface but would be prohibitively difficult to implement technologically. nuclear / other renewables would be much more preferable. stick to geothermal energy only in regions where it's appropriate.

 

 

humans are inherently twats and that won't change

I would strongly disagree. It's the environment which someone grows up in that contributes to the behaviors of that human being. What do you base this on, unless you're joking around? A baby is not born corrupt. There is more to it than this -- I do not believe however, that we are born as blank slates. That is the most naive statement someone could ever make.

but as long as there's factors that divide us - be it religion, ethnicity, language etc. then there will always be poisonous "us" and "them" mentalities.