Dale Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Z8TR4ToNs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezkerraldean Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 zeitgeist [/thread] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 zeitgeist [/thread] did you watch the video though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezkerraldean Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 no lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 no lol ok, well thanks for bumping the thread with your post anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adjective Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 hey i saw this thread got bumped, what's going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plstik Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 couldnt stand that guy for more than 50s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest abusivegeorge Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 We are the only creative intelligence in the universe? Jesus christ we have fucking aliens on watmm and he says this. What a cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaosmachine Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 This guy takes a lot as given. People have been predicting a robotic workforce for decades. So far, the only big successes have been in factories, where things run on a production line. Getting reliable robotics out into the real world is a much harder problem. Dealing with the unpredictable chaos of uncontrolled environments requires real AI, and we've consistently underestimated just how difficult that problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaksta303 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dealing with the unpredictable chaos of uncontrolled environments requires real AI, and we've consistently underestimated just how difficult that problem is. I'm not a "Mr. Doomsday" kind of guy but I think POSSIBLY, once we have wrapped our heads around AI, we're fucked (so eloquent, i know) as a society. Done. One way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blir Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dealing with the unpredictable chaos of uncontrolled environments requires real AI, and we've consistently underestimated just how difficult that problem is. I'm not a "Mr. Doomsday" kind of guy but I think POSSIBLY, once we have wrapped our heads around AI, we're fucked (so eloquent, i know) as a society. Done. One way or another. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coalbucket PI Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 dont count 10 minutes as short as I am on my lunch hour, feel mislead and distrustful but may return to watch later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dealing with the unpredictable chaos of uncontrolled environments requires real AI, and we've consistently underestimated just how difficult that problem is. I'm not a "Mr. Doomsday" kind of guy but I think POSSIBLY, once we have wrapped our heads around AI, we're fucked (so eloquent, i know) as a society. Done. One way or another. Technology is ALWAYS moving forwards. I can safely say that technological unemployment is an inevitability -- the system would collapse or suffer as a result. Companies who take on automation over a human workforce have so many benefits: - They are ahead of competition in the market - Increase in the output of products via reliable and skilled robotics -- computers can handle trillions of bits of information unlike a human - No Health Insurance/Wages/Holiday pay needed (unlike a human workforce) -- needless to say that routine repairs would need to be carried out And once you have displaced workers in the Service sector (which is predominantly where employment is at it's highest in the West), what new field of work or industry is opened up for them? Nothing.. I like the guys idea in the video where worker would still get paid a set amount of money but that can't go on forever, we have to change the monetary system altogether into a resource based economy where technology can intelligently manage the Earth's resources and create an abundance for society. This should all be embraced, but it can't be a in a money system because it will cause suffering and unemployment on a mass scale. The thought that technology can free people from mundane, repetitive and irrelevant jobs is a step in the right direction but we need to adopt a system which allows technological growth without people being affected in a negative way. So can't people see the shortcomings of the monetary system? The current economic system stifles technological growth, and is quite frankly an insult to a human who has to work at your local supermarket sweeping up the spillage on aisle 35 down in the milk section. That worker is capable of much more than cleaning up milk from the floor isn't he!? Get a machine to do that and allow the employee to pursue a career in IT/Science/Geography or just travel the world and educate his/herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ezkerraldean Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 what if there's a powercut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaksta303 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 we must blacken the skies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 what if there's a powercut Do you know what they have in hospitals? An emergency power system. When the routinely used power system fails in some way, it automatically triggers the emergency reserve power set up, so that when you are being operated on, you don't die basically.. Same would apply to everything in society. Everything would become optimized because there is no repair industries needed - if there is no money, there is no profit in making repairs, so literally everything can become optimized using the best materials and resources available at present day knowledge, everything becomes emergent, not established so things would always undergo change for the betterment of all devices used in society. Energy would be clean, renewable and in abundance. If we know how to harness wind, tidal and most of all Geothermal power (which Iceland uses to power many things): "In Iceland, there are five major geothermal power plants which produce about 26% (2006) of the country's electricity. In addition, geothermal heating meets the heating and hot water requirements for around 87% of the nation's buildings." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Iceland ^^ Why aren't we using this? The answer is simple, it is more profitable to sell a scarce energy resource such as petrol/oil rather than go with something that is in abundance like tapping into the heat under the ground. This is completely backwards, only because we have money in this present system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaksta303 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Dealing with the unpredictable chaos of uncontrolled environments requires real AI, and we've consistently underestimated just how difficult that problem is. I'm not a "Mr. Doomsday" kind of guy but I think POSSIBLY, once we have wrapped our heads around AI, we're fucked (so eloquent, i know) as a society. Done. One way or another. Technology is ALWAYS moving forwards. I can safely say that technological unemployment is an inevitability -- the system would collapse or suffer as a result. Companies who take on automation over a human workforce have so many benefits: - They are ahead of competition in the market - Increase in the output of products via reliable and skilled robotics -- computers can handle trillions of bits of information unlike a human - No Health Insurance/Wages/Holiday pay needed (unlike a human workforce) -- needless to say that routine repairs would need to be carried out And once you have displaced workers in the Service sector (which is predominantly where employment is at it's highest in the West), what new field of work or industry is opened up for them? Nothing.. I like the guys idea in the video where worker would still get paid a set amount of money but that can't go on forever, we have to change the monetary system altogether into a resource based economy where technology can intelligently manage the Earth's resources and create an abundance for society. This should all be embraced, but it can't be a in a money system because it will cause suffering and unemployment on a mass scale. The thought that technology can free people from mundane, repetitive and irrelevant jobs is a step in the right direction but we need to adopt a system which allows technological growth without people being affected in a negative way. So can't people see the shortcomings of the monetary system? The current economic system stifles technological growth, and is quite frankly an insult to a human who has to work at your local supermarket sweeping up the spillage on aisle 35 down in the milk section. That worker is capable of much more than cleaning up milk from the floor isn't he!? Get a machine to do that and allow the employee to pursue a career in IT/Science/Geography or just travel the world and educate his/herself. All I was getting at is that if AI really gets to near human quality, the human will be rendered useless. WE NEED humans to clean up spilled milk. We need to make $. We as a planet are WAY to overpopulated to give ALL menial jobs to AI, as there aren't NEARLY enough good jobs to go around. Come on son, there isn't enough good jobs NOW! Also, and this is movie bullshit, but if AI is really AI, who's to say they wouldn't get sick of their subservience and revolt, leading to some Matrix scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 All I was getting at is that if AI really gets to near human quality, the human will be rendered useless. WE NEED humans to clean up spilled milk. We need to make $. Humans in a money system would be rendered useless to a certain extent if AI can take over job positions, however, in a totally new system called a resource based economy, where new technologies are embraced to free humans from monotonous, boring labor jobs then this would not be the case. You'd be free to pursue inventions, science, traveling the world, making music with the best synthesizers available etc.. This is why a whole new system is needed. We must outgrow the monetary system in order for humans to work on more advanced research and findings. It will be humans who will be the most useful intelligence alive for we are the ones who program the machines to help and assist in our everyday lives. You need to work to "earn" money at the moment, but if our current occupations can be automated and we move to a system without money, necessities will be provided by machinery. We as a planet are WAY to overpopulated to give ALL menial jobs to AI, as there aren't NEARLY enough good jobs to go around. I disagree that overpopulation is a problem. Look up cities in the sea, we have technology to live in the oceans: http://www.thevenusproject.com/technology/cities-in-the-sea People should receive a relevant education, to learn about the consequences of overpopulating the planet. There has never been a huge research project conducted to find out how many resources are available on the planet in every country possible. This must be done first so that the current world population is in balance with how many resources we hold. Problems in the world are technical NOT political.. politicians are useless, they are only here to maintain this current system, not to change anything for the betterment of people. They are not specialists in technology or science. Also, and this is movie bullshit, but if AI is really AI, who's to say they wouldn't get sick of their subservience and revolt, leading to some Matrix scenario? You have been watching too many Hollywood films. Everyone has seen the likes of Terminator and I-Robot.. and what we need to take into consideration is that robots do not have emotion. If I took a laptop and smashed it to pieces whilst being in the same room with over 100 other laptops, are the laptops going to come and kill me? No, because they are just inanimate objects that don't have feelings. What matters though, is how a computer programmer engineers the AI that goes into a robot or machine. They should ONLY be programmed to carry out a specific role or task, that is all. In a resource based economy without money where corruption can not be rewarded (unlike a monetary system, where corruption is rewarded), why would a computer programmer want to engineer AI to kill humans and ruin everything? There is no incentive to do that. If there is, please explain why there would be an incentive. If your answer is that the computer programmer is just a crazy person, then that person will be helped through psychologists and doctors, not thrown into prison. Try not to limit your frame of reference and refer everything to what happens in a money system (I realise this is all people know, because everyone has grown up with money) - don't let that limit your thought processes. The whole point of a resource based economy is so that computers can make decisions based on what is best for humanity. If this concept is new to you, here is a video clip as an introduction to what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuFrtbgQoTQ It's such a complex subject matter, I unfortunately don't have all the time to write up about it all here, I wish I could though. Please let me know if I haven't made anything clear in my answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taxman Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 ah man i thought this was going to be a serious video about automation. now he's talking about beautiful woman robots working at mcdonalds and gaining intelligence. he needs to go to a car plant and meet one of the robots that welds car frames all day long. that robot is keeping it real. this guy doesn't know shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blicero Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 this guy assumes that during all this time when we are creating advanced AI that will replace all of our current jobs that nothing else in the world will change or adapt to match these advances? FAIL you could just as easily make the case that when AI takes all of our jobs we will be able to sit back and collect the profits of robot labor while attending sex orgies and gorging ourselves on piles of GM food and booze... just as the Romans did w/ slaves. you only need a job because you need money to buy food, things, etc... when food and things are so abundant and cheap that we no longer need jobs, we can all focus on creative and intellectual pursuits. imagine if you could spend all of the time you now spend at work, making music, painting, reading, writing, learning, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 ah man i thought this was going to be a serious video about automation. now he's talking about beautiful woman robots working at mcdonalds and gaining intelligence. he needs to go to a car plant and meet one of the robots that welds car frames all day long. that robot is keeping it real. this guy doesn't know shit. I particularly liked the use of statistics in the video to outline some useful data on the subject. I admit that the problem with the video I posted originally does not seem to offer any real solution. This is why I have expanded upon it in my last post above. I get tired of hearing people raise problems but never offering a solution.. before stating a problem, why not think up an idea to solve something otherwise an argument someone makes about raising a problem in society is rendered useless in a conversation It's like with speeding limits, you see a sign saying "Don't speed" -- these are just words though. How is this helpful? You still get people speeding. To solve the problem of speeding, why not have vehicles reacting electronically with the road through magnetism perhaps? If the road is intelligent, it can automatically restrict your speed if there is a vehicle near by. Laws are made because there is no solution to the problem at hand. As I said before, problems are technical, not political. Politicians do not have the necessary scientific training to really make the advancements that are necessary in everyday life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taxman Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 i'm all for doing away with the economy as we know it. the idea that robots are the key to perfecting society by replacing the working class is what i have a problem with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adjective Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Technology is ALWAYS moving forwards. I can safely say that technological unemployment is an inevitability -- the system would collapse or suffer as a result. Companies who take on automation over a human workforce have so many benefits: - They are ahead of competition in the market - Increase in the output of products via reliable and skilled robotics -- computers can handle trillions of bits of information unlike a human - No Health Insurance/Wages/Holiday pay needed (unlike a human workforce) -- needless to say that routine repairs would need to be carried out And once you have displaced workers in the Service sector (which is predominantly where employment is at it's highest in the West), what new field of work or industry is opened up for them? Nothing.. I like the guys idea in the video where worker would still get paid a set amount of money but that can't go on forever, we have to change the monetary system altogether into a resource based economy where technology can intelligently manage the Earth's resources and create an abundance for society. This should all be embraced, but it can't be a in a money system because it will cause suffering and unemployment on a mass scale. The thought that technology can free people from mundane, repetitive and irrelevant jobs is a step in the right direction but we need to adopt a system which allows technological growth without people being affected in a negative way. So can't people see the shortcomings of the monetary system? The current economic system stifles technological growth, and is quite frankly an insult to a human who has to work at your local supermarket sweeping up the spillage on aisle 35 down in the milk section. That worker is capable of much more than cleaning up milk from the floor isn't he!? Get a machine to do that and allow the employee to pursue a career in IT/Science/Geography or just travel the world and educate his/herself. you sound full of sympathy, which is nice, but you also seem ignorant that at the end of the day, it's people that are what's wrong with people. the monetary system fills a void, and something else will fill it when it's gone. any replacement will be flawed and exploited too, because people will be involved. do away with everything you see wrong, hard, stressful, and harmful to human life all the live-long day, but they'll all leave a void that will be filled again. and seeing our track record of short-sightedness and fucking things up very consistently, it's probably not a good idea to fill these voids with sentient robots. i think wanting to fix a system is a good thing, but don't forget that strife is a part of life, it can't be cured. taking a broom out of someone's hand and handing him a paint brush isn't going to end in a rainbow. it's him getting fucked or it'll be someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaksta303 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Bread, ur right. i saw too many movies. maybe robots WONT have emotion. The thing is, scientists do things everyday because they can, not taking into consideration if they SHOULD. That's my MAIN worry. Just forget all my $ & overpop talk. I don't want to fight here, I just like hearing intelligent people express themselves for a change as I do not get that enough in my IRL life. seeing our track record of short-sightedness and fucking things up very consistently, it's probably not a good idea to fill these voids with sentient robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 i'm all for doing away with the economy as we know it. the idea that robots are the key to perfecting society by replacing the working class is what i have a problem with. Remember that perfection or utopia can never be attained. Technology is always becoming emergent and advanced. Things become smaller, faster and more efficient day by day, there's really no final frontiers in a resource based economy. To say there is an end goal is dangerous -- we should always be working on the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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