Rand Paul (son of Ron Paul)

[Guest chunky]

legalise weed and two blokes married in a church aint paleocon. whats his position on civil liberties?

[Guest blicero]

I have a theory that most libertarians are actually republicans but are ashamed to admit it so they call themselves "libertarians" because it makes them sound smarter and cooler.

 

I wouldn't say most, but certainly many.

[Guest EDGEY]

just watched an entire episode of bill maher whilst cringing, basically it seems like now it's a talking point to say that libertarianism = racism

fucking hell

I saw it too - almost seemed like "libertarian" is a bad word...

[goDel]

ayaan defended it good though.

[Boxing Day]

Here is what i think of Rand Paul : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Iz7-8W9Ro

[Guest disparaissant]

^ we need more people like him in politics, for real. though from what i've heard rahm emmanuel is pretty close. too bad he's a corporate cocksucker.

[awepittance]

I have a theory that most libertarians are actually republicans but are ashamed to admit it so they call themselves "libertarians" because it makes them sound smarter and cooler.

 

I wouldn't say most, but certainly many.

 

I'm sure they are out there but i haven't encountered a single one in my actual life. Most of the people i know who subscribe to(not self identified 'i am staunchly libertarian') libertarianism are mostly very liberal and left-leaning. Not saying they ARENT out there i'm just trying to put a stop to the over generalization of something that a large majority of this forum has no understanding of. It's too easy to paint something in a certain way if you have little knowledge of it. Look at what happened with islam, now about 50% of this fucking ignorant country thinks that islam = terrorism. If we were better educated about the muslim religion as a nation maybe we wouldn't be so stupid. I'd be willing to make a bet that if 8/10 people on this forum read the writings of Harry Browne they would find themselves agreeing with almost everything he has to say on foreign policy, civil liberties, gay rights and the like.

 

watching the Bill Maher show last night was literally like watching a festival of ignorance, stereotypes piled on top of blanket statements into one giant ball of misdirection.

[Guest disparaissant]

you havent met any? literally all but two of the self-described libertarians i know are just republicans incognito. then again, they're mostly my idiotic mormon relatives...

[awepittance]

you havent met any? literally all but two of the self-described libertarians i know are just republicans incognito. then again, they're mostly my idiotic mormon relatives...

 

where do you live? i am in oakland, ca right next to berkeley so obviously my point of view is locally based. like i said i'm sure they are out there but they definitely do not represent the mainstream libertarian values, i guarantee you your mormon relatives believe in things that are much more republican and conservative when it comes to our foreign policy, gays and how we treat 'terrorists' than the average libertarian

[Guest disparaissant]

you havent met any? literally all but two of the self-described libertarians i know are just republicans incognito. then again, they're mostly my idiotic mormon relatives...

 

where do you live? i am in oakland, ca right next to berkeley so obviously my point of view is locally based. like i said i'm sure they are out there but they definitely do not represent the mainstream libertarian values, i guarantee you your mormon relatives believe in things that are much more republican and conservative when it comes to our foreign policy, gays and how we treat 'terrorists' than the average libertarian

 

i live north of chicago, but my relatives in question are from allll over. and yes, they don't like teh gays, and are pro-life, and all sorts of very unlibertarian things. that doesn't stop them from claiming to be libertarian, though. it's very annoying.

[J3FF3R00]

"Republican" became a bit of a dirty word with G.W. Bush.

A spade is a spade.

[Boxing Day]

The AMERICAN right-wing uprising has changed the meaning Libertarianism , if you deny that fact, then you are a delusional person that wants to live in a world where birds shit chocolate milk and Pigs fly first class American Airlines.

[Guest EDGEY]

The AMERICAN right-wing uprising has changed the meaning Libertarianism , if you deny that fact, then you are a delusional person that wants to live in a world where birds shit chocolate milk and Pigs fly first class American Airlines.

You don't walk away from your political ideals because someone has co-opted and distorted your message. Simply state as often as possible - that these idiots are not libertarians. They're afraid to say they're republicans, so they've latched on to what they consider to be the closest thing, and while some of the more global watered-down news-bite style talking points may be the same (lower taxes, more freedoms, less government), the goals, intents and means are quite different.

 

Also, pigs do fly first class american airlines... please see this thread:

http://forum.watmm.com/topic/56489-why-is-the-united-states-so-fucking-fat/

[awepittance]

The AMERICAN right-wing uprising has changed the meaning Libertarianism , if you deny that fact, then you are a delusional person that wants to live in a world where birds shit chocolate milk and Pigs fly first class American Airlines.

You don't walk away from your political ideals because someone has co-opted and distorted your message. Simply state as often as possible - that these idiots are not libertarians. They're afraid to say they're republicans, so they've latched on to what they consider to be the closest thing, and while some of the more global watered-down news-bite style talking points may be the same (lower taxes, more freedoms, less government), the goals, intents and means are quite different.

 

 

 

 

perfect response, i equate this to the same thing as making people who are muslim apologize or 'condemn' other muslims for being radically violent. If there is a minority fringe trying to co-opt your religion, message or values the only thing you can do is distance yourself from them but it's not your responsibility to teach the ignorant masses not to believe in blanket associations.

 

edit:uninformed idiots will always be uninformed idiots, the best you can try to do is inform them and if they choose not to believe actual facts well you've done your part. Rewriting american history is the best technique the republicans have in their playbook right now (ie: Reagan was our greatest president, Islamic terrorism is a major threat, etc) and as i can see by watching Bill Maher and some of the arguments made in this thread, that the saturation of this rewriting propaganda has been extremely effective. It just makes me sad that people just don't do their own research and actually try a little harder to inform themselves. Don't let republicans frame the debate for you, make up your own fucking mind

 

edit2: "more freedoms, less government" , the funny part is most of the so-called tea party people or 'anti big government' conservatives are total hypocrites. They in principal do not really care about big government, they just care if the big government expansions are being done under a democrat president. They were totally silent for all 8 years of george w bush who gave us the biggest deficit in history as welll as an entirely new secretive federal law enforcement agency, 'homeland security'. In the end i am sick to death of people taking the tea partiers seriously, because they are hypocritical people with no actual principals for one and they are coopting a movement (libertarianism ) that is in completely contradiction with the Bush era and 99.9% of modern conservatisim. Please don't let a bunch of assholes stain something that actually has a lot of good aspects

[awepittance]

this is basically how i got into libertarianism, this guy had the balls to write this a day after 9/11/01 at a time when even so-called liberals were ranting and raving about revenge. he was the libertarian presidential candidate for at least 2 elections, he died about 5 years ago.

 

By Harry Browne

© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com

The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.

 

It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth – that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.

 

Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.

 

When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?

 

President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush, senior, invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.

 

Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?

 

When will we learn that violence always begets violence?

 

Teaching lessons

 

Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Gadhafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.

 

When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment – that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.

 

How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.

 

But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent people – while the presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?

 

When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?

 

Losing our last freedoms

 

And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place.

 

When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?

 

What to do?

 

What should be done?

 

First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.

 

Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.

 

Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.

 

Patriotism?

 

There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and un-American – that this is not a time to question our country or our leaders.

 

When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?

 

it's not the most eloquent article but it definitely made me rethink a lot of the hysteria i was feeling at the time. he tried to go on TV networks and say pretty much the same message but i watched twice as his feed was cut-off once on CNN and once on foxnews because he was too 'offensive'. See how this doesn't gel at all with the tea party movement?

[Guest EDGEY]

it's not the most eloquent article but it definitely made me rethink a lot of the hysteria i was feeling at the time. he tried to go on TV networks and say pretty much the same message but i watched twice as his feed was cut-off once on CNN and once on foxnews because he was too 'offensive'. See how this doesn't gel at all with the tea party movement?

It really was only a matter of time before someone punched back... And I don't say that with a gloating "I told ya so", but really 9/11 should not have been a suprise. This is one of the MAJOR differences between the republican right-wing tea-bagger movement and libertarianism. Libertarians do not support the vast majority of america's foreign policy. "No U.S. intervention in the affairs of other countries." It's a pretty black and white statement - and completely goes against almost everything the 2 major parties have done in regards to foreign policy.

[awepittance]

yes and in a way libertarians are more strongly against military intervention than most liberals or democrats. Libertarians in principal would be against every military incursion we've made since perhaps WWII. I remember very clearly under the Clinton administration where sending Nato in Bosnia was totally ok as long as the end goal was to oust an evil dictator (sound familiar?) Liberals(fake ones) often take up the 'spreading peace by dropping bombs' excuse when a democratic president wants to go to war, just look at Afghanistan, most people i talk to who are against the Iraq War thing the Afghanistan war is 100% justified. it amazes me, it really does.

 

edit: i live in perhaps the most liberal area of the entire country and there has only been a single anti-war rally that i know in San Francisco since Obama was in office.

[Boxing Day]

Awepittance , you should be careful with putting all "Liberals" in the same bag , make sure to add (Fake ones) every time.

 

(I'm pretty sure you would tell me that if i were you)

[awepittance]

ill try to stop using labels

[J3FF3R00]

The biggest libertarian I know watches tons of fox news.

[Guest disparaissant]

well yeah cuz bill o'reilly is an independent. so is glenn beck. doesn't mean shit man.

[J3FF3R00]

That's funny. Beck and O'Rly sure have a lot more liberal-bashing for being "independents".

[kaini]

now would you kindly vote for rand paul?

[Guest disparaissant]

That's funny. Beck and O'Rly sure have a lot more liberal-bashing for being "independents".

lies! they are FAIR and BALANCED!

[Guest EDGEY]

well yeah cuz bill o'reilly is an independent. so is glenn beck. doesn't mean shit man.

 

Just because libertarians are considered independants, doesn't mean all independants are libertarians.

 

The biggest libertarian I know watches tons of fox news.

 

I watch some fox news. It's comedy gold. Also... It's good to know your enemies argument, it helps you strengthen your own. Watching "news" networks catered to your ideals isn't helping you understand the issues better, it's just reinforcing your own opinion. It's easy to preach to the choir... I'd like to see them run their bullshit on the opposition.