depression and drug treatment

[TwiddleBot]

I have the exact opposite problem. When I get really down I tend to blow my bank account in exercises of pointless retail therapy.

[Guest fiznuthian]

fuck.. the way you guys talk about your experiences with the pills confirms to me that anti-depressants should NOT be handed out nearly as often as they are. thats scary shit Twiddle.

 

i read in this book last night a passage that explained all 160 civil lawsuits that has been brought against the Eli Lilly because of prozac have been resolved through settlement outside of the courts to silent public outrage. they won a case that denied a family's accusations that their son had become violent and stabbed his family and himself after being put on a prozac regimen. Eli Lilly himself testified in court that there were no reason to suspect side-effects of that nature and extremity had anything to do with the prozac.

Odd he would do that though, because it was revealed later that he purchased a patent for an improved version of prozac three months before the trial that was said to reduce the usual adverse side-effects such as "nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, inner restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation, and manic behavior". the family is still waiting for a retrial..

 

seriously, what the fuck?

[Guest EDGEY]

In my travels, when speaking with people form other countries they notice a tendency for Americans to be more outgoing regarding their personal mental problems, and a propensity for mental health professionals to be quick on the trigger to hand out meds…

[marf]

im glad i took meds. They saved me. Just work on getting off them as soon as you start. Use them as a tool to get better and restore balance in your brain

[Guest EDGEY]

Paradoxically, the people who need the help the most are the ones the most short on the 3 things I mentioned and therefore have to engage "boosters" like medication + therapy.

 

strongly disagree with that last statement. intelligence can be a gigantic hindrance to getting out of a depressive period, as it leads to rationalizing thought loops that often just make you more depressed. i would go so far as to say it has absolutely nothing to do with someone's ability to regain control of their life.

You only addressed the "high intelligence" factor as a hindrance but forgot the implications of low or even moderate. A large bulk of talk therapy relies on abstract concepts that aren't as easy to grasp for some. Since memory is a major component of intelligence, people who don't have it goin' on like those in this discussion may have trouble connecting the dots with how maladaptive behavioral patterns have impacted them and may be less likely to retain the lessons learned from therapy to give them lasting effect. How could you say intelligence has nothing to do with a process that uses interpersonal contact and the ability to listen to and use new ideas?

"Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them."

[Guest fiznuthian]

Paradoxically, the people who need the help the most are the ones the most short on the 3 things I mentioned and therefore have to engage "boosters" like medication + therapy.

 

strongly disagree with that last statement. intelligence can be a gigantic hindrance to getting out of a depressive period, as it leads to rationalizing thought loops that often just make you more depressed. i would go so far as to say it has absolutely nothing to do with someone's ability to regain control of their life.

You only addressed the "high intelligence" factor as a hindrance but forgot the implications of low or even moderate. A large bulk of talk therapy relies on abstract concepts that aren't as easy to grasp for some. Since memory is a major component of intelligence, people who don't have it goin' on like those in this discussion may have trouble connecting the dots with how maladaptive behavioral patterns have impacted them and may be less likely to retain the lessons learned from therapy to give them lasting effect. How could you say intelligence has nothing to do with a process that uses interpersonal contact and the ability to listen to and use new ideas?

 

yeah, you know yesterday i really wanted to disagree with you about the intelligence requirement for cognitive behavioral therapy..

but now i see what you're getting at, and i really have no choice but to agree.

i can't even imagine someone raised amongst simple country folk going through a therapy like i'm doing.

my parents are simple like this and idealize the way they see things, and it was hard to explain to them all of the complex, fucked up thought patterns that led to my condition.

the exposure work i do would be simple and effective for someone with anxiety, its really just getting out there and being in places that make me anxious, working up the ladder to build successes.

but the cognitive side of things, i.e. reversing all of the damage that harmful self-talk has done to how i perceive myself (self-concept, and for me, my self-image) is a much harder idea to grasp.. it requires being aware of my mental processes and how they are affecting things as often as i possibly can, and thats not an easy task for a person of more simple ways. i could be wrong though.

depression itself is a whole different beast, and more than likely a lot more difficult to treat with psychotherapy.

[marf]

when i was clincially depressed i didnt get a hard on ever. Even at night sleeping. I took pristiq and after 3 weeks, bam. hard ons. Real nocturnal erections. It gave me the energy to do CBT on myself and work through my problems. Helped me see how the clinical thought patterns were totally ludicrous

[remy marathe]

Paradoxically, the people who need the help the most are the ones the most short on the 3 things I mentioned and therefore have to engage "boosters" like medication + therapy.

 

strongly disagree with that last statement. intelligence can be a gigantic hindrance to getting out of a depressive period, as it leads to rationalizing thought loops that often just make you more depressed. i would go so far as to say it has absolutely nothing to do with someone's ability to regain control of their life.

You only addressed the "high intelligence" factor as a hindrance but forgot the implications of low or even moderate. A large bulk of talk therapy relies on abstract concepts that aren't as easy to grasp for some. Since memory is a major component of intelligence, people who don't have it goin' on like those in this discussion may have trouble connecting the dots with how maladaptive behavioral patterns have impacted them and may be less likely to retain the lessons learned from therapy to give them lasting effect. How could you say intelligence has nothing to do with a process that uses interpersonal contact and the ability to listen to and use new ideas?

 

let me reword that, because you're right, it has a lot to do with it: intelligence has little effect on one's ability to deal with depression. whether or not intelligence had to do with the effectiveness of therapy...it may, it may not. intelligence is a pretty vague concept, but i'm just talking about generally smart people. and i'm speaking from some considerable experience, having been on and off anti depressants for a lot of my formative years, and having watched people much smarter than i am who are totally unable to deal with their illnesses. and these people dumped tons of money into therapy, drugs, etc. i'm not saying there isn't a solution, but there are holes that you dig with the power of your own intellect, and depression seems to feed off of cyclical thought processes and skewed reasoning.

basically i'm saying the smarter you are, the more likely you're going to make fairly simple things into complex problems, rationalizing ad infinitum until someone or something breaks you out of it. but i'm fairly cynical about the effectiveness of talk therapy or any kind of cognitive behavior therapy on its own.

 

rereading your initial post, i think i misunderstood the intent, actually. we probably agree on this, i'm just arguing a point you weren't really making.

[TwiddleBot]

i can't even imagine someone raised amongst simple country folk going through a therapy like i'm doing.

my parents are simple like this and idealize the way they see things, and it was hard to explain to them all of the complex, fucked up thought patterns that led to my condition.

the exposure work i do would be simple and effective for someone with anxiety, its really just getting out there and being in places that make me anxious, working up the ladder to build successes.

but the cognitive side of things, i.e. reversing all of the damage that harmful self-talk has done to how i perceive myself (self-concept, and for me, my self-image) is a much harder idea to grasp.. it requires being aware of my mental processes and how they are affecting things as often as i possibly can, and thats not an easy task for a person of more simple ways. i could be wrong though.

depression itself is a whole different beast, and more than likely a lot more difficult to treat with psychotherapy.

 

I'm pretty much in a similar boat as you (my parents are SuperFundie xtian) and hence there is simply no common frame of reference to discuss pretty much anything that exists in the real world, from having a girlfriend to attending a birthday party.

 

I went through my bout with antidepressants shortly before I began to figure out how to get myself out of that religious craziness. And surprise-surprise--I did not possess the self-awareness to fully understand why I was depressed at the time. So I do agree. You need to figure out what is going on in your own head.

 

This is also why I strongly would urge anyone who is prescribed antidepressants to avoid them unless they have a good psychiatrist who knows what s/he is doing and will check in with you and will determine if you need therapy, drugs, or both. Unlike people I grew up with who never escaped their upbringings or bettered themselves and exhibited manic symptoms after taking the pills being handed out left right and center. Antidepressants much like any drug, are very specific to certain conditions and can affect individuals differently. Drugs are kind of a crap shoot that way...

[Guest disparaissant]

^^ yeah same, i think my mom's literal reaction to me being prescribed antidepressants at 14 was along the lines of "oh, pills! like the ones i take for my thyroid! well that'll fix everything!"

[marf]

teenagers react differently to ssri's than adults. It's pretty well studied now. So, i have to wonder if adults who are against ssri's just have a chip on their shoulder cause they had a bad experience when they were teens

[TwiddleBot]

^^ yeah same, i think my mom's literal reaction to me being prescribed antidepressants at 14 was along the lines of "oh, pills! like the ones i take for my thyroid! well that'll fix everything!"

 

It was practically a rite of passage where I lived, my parents referred to them as their happy pills.

 

Gee, physically and socially isolated, fucked-up guilt-tripping belief system, I wonder why so many people were depressed!

[Guest fiznuthian]

i can't even imagine someone raised amongst simple country folk going through a therapy like i'm doing.

my parents are simple like this and idealize the way they see things, and it was hard to explain to them all of the complex, fucked up thought patterns that led to my condition.

the exposure work i do would be simple and effective for someone with anxiety, its really just getting out there and being in places that make me anxious, working up the ladder to build successes.

but the cognitive side of things, i.e. reversing all of the damage that harmful self-talk has done to how i perceive myself (self-concept, and for me, my self-image) is a much harder idea to grasp.. it requires being aware of my mental processes and how they are affecting things as often as i possibly can, and thats not an easy task for a person of more simple ways. i could be wrong though.

depression itself is a whole different beast, and more than likely a lot more difficult to treat with psychotherapy.

 

I'm pretty much in a similar boat as you (my parents are SuperFundie xtian) and hence there is simply no common frame of reference to discuss pretty much anything that exists in the real world, from having a girlfriend to attending a birthday party.

 

I went through my bout with antidepressants shortly before I began to figure out how to get myself out of that religious craziness. And surprise-surprise--I did not possess the self-awareness to fully understand why I was depressed at the time. So I do agree. You need to figure out what is going on in your own head.

 

This is also why I strongly would urge anyone who is prescribed antidepressants to avoid them unless they have a good psychiatrist who knows what s/he is doing and will check in with you and will determine if you need therapy, drugs, or both. Unlike people I grew up with who never escaped their upbringings or bettered themselves and exhibited manic symptoms after taking the pills being handed out left right and center. Antidepressants much like any drug, are very specific to certain conditions and can affect individuals differently. Drugs are kind of a crap shoot that way...

 

yeah dude, i know how you feel. i've always been an extremely cerebral individual, even as a youngster i was highly explorative of nature and would contemplate things alot.. but i spent most of my childhood surrounded by simpleton country folk who worked on cars all day rather than spending the money on holes in their roof. they always knew i was different, and i was picked on a lot because of it..

 

i'm very fortunate to live where i do though which is sister-towns. the university in one town is very well known now (mostly because of crazy asian killers) but is extremely liberal whereas my birth town is chock-full of conservative evangelical tightwads.. so my exposure to exotic cultures and pot-growing hippies loosened up some threadwork up in there somewhere. still had no idea why i was struggling to socialize and be happy, almost even worse because a lot of the people here are care-free types who would ask "what's depression feel like?".

 

man i really feel you on the superfundie parents.. mine are open-minded to new things just really simple and traditional.

i can't even imagine being born into some of the aforementioned evangelical families that roll around here still with "MAN AND WOMAN", and "BUSH 2004" bumper stickers. how is your relationship with your parents now?

[Guest hahathhat]

fuck it, i'll put my tits out. i hate those fucking pills. they're a band-aid solution for deep spiritual wounds. only take them if you have to, and then only use them as a leg-up to get yourself straight before ditching them. by "have to" i mean you're fucked-up to the point of being completely unable to function or in danger of hurting yourself.

[marf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6EQA-qgzx0

[lumpenprol]

saw an interesting show on the telly once about a medical procedure for people with supposedly "incurable" depression...in my simple-minded way I was actually quite impressed. They stuck some sort of electrode deep inside the brain into some region-or-other that was supposed to stimulate it. Kind of like a brain pacemaker, I suppose. The interesting part was they could only do the procedure with the patient fully conscious, as that was the only way they could know when they hit the "sweet spot." They filmed the whole thing. Sure enough, when they stuck this wire deep in this lady's head, her gloomy face instantly lit up with an expression of joy, and she started talking about how everything in the room seemed instantly more colorful and alive...it was a trip....despite all our complexity we're really no different than say, frogs...

[Guest hahathhat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6EQA-qgzx0

 

hhaha, god, this guy is great. clearly dipping into his own doctor bag...

 

saw an interesting show on the telly once about a medical procedure for people with supposedly "incurable" depression...in my simple-minded way I was actually quite impressed. They stuck some sort of electrode deep inside the brain into some region-or-other that was supposed to stimulate it. Kind of like a brain pacemaker, I suppose. The interesting part was they could only do the procedure with the patient fully conscious, as that was the only way they could know when they hit the "sweet spot." They filmed the whole thing. Sure enough, when they stuck this wire deep in this lady's head, her gloomy face instantly lit up with an expression of joy, and she started talking about how everything in the room seemed instantly more colorful and alive...it was a trip....despite all our complexity we're really no different than say, frogs...

 

you wouldn't believe the wacky shit you can do with a carefully targeted electrical field. out of body experiences, joy, decimating the sense of where your limbs are, etc.

[Guest Babar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6EQA-qgzx0

 

hhaha, god, this guy is great. clearly dipping into his own doctor bag...

 

saw an interesting show on the telly once about a medical procedure for people with supposedly "incurable" depression...in my simple-minded way I was actually quite impressed. They stuck some sort of electrode deep inside the brain into some region-or-other that was supposed to stimulate it. Kind of like a brain pacemaker, I suppose. The interesting part was they could only do the procedure with the patient fully conscious, as that was the only way they could know when they hit the "sweet spot." They filmed the whole thing. Sure enough, when they stuck this wire deep in this lady's head, her gloomy face instantly lit up with an expression of joy, and she started talking about how everything in the room seemed instantly more colorful and alive...it was a trip....despite all our complexity we're really no different than say, frogs...

 

you wouldn't believe the wacky shit you can do with a carefully targeted electrical field. out of body experiences, joy, decimating the sense of where your limbs are, etc.

 

that explains the hats then

[Guest mafted]

i saw a vid of this in a psych class.. microelectric shock therapy. it's the only treatment for depression that seems to fully work, except you might lose a bit of memory. better than a lobotomy

 

but really, the main ingredient in marijuana has shown in labs to regulate the serotonergic system at low doses. it's basically the same as an antidepressant. i'd suggest dropping the corporate remedies.

[TwiddleBot]

how is your relationship with your parents now?

 

For a few years when I was living with my last partner, my parents refused to come visit because I was living in sin or something, and our contact dried up a lot. It's certainly not for lack of love or anything, just as it turns out, love can be horribly misguided. Things are improving slowly but I avoid talking about my personal life. :P

[Guest A/D]

i don't know if my story will be of any use to you, but there have been some great ones already in this thread, so i wanted to pitch in.

 

i had to figure it out for myself. i'm a consistent self-medicator. i resisted the idea that chemicals could help me for the longest time, but it turned out that self-medicating was part of my way forward. i hit a point where i couldn't get out of bed anymore and needed to get out of my head. i made a lot of changes in my life then.

 

what i really needed is to know that i'm willing to do anything to feel okay with myself and my life in general. i'm terrified of that, still - i like feeling in control, and i hate the idea of being "controlled" by my unpredictable desires. however, it turns out that what i REALLY want are things i agree with, in the core of myself.

 

in order to feel okay with that, i had to let go and completely do whatever comes to my heart to do. rather than backing down from what i wanted, i had to act it out completely. i did some things that hurt the people around me. i do my best to make it right. but it turned out that i'm mostly okay with what i want. there's a lot i still struggle with, but i accept that struggle as my own, and now i know there's too much love in me to back down.

 

i can't say i could have gotten where i am today without some kind of medication, because it happened that way. your path might be different - i don't know. you may never know what's right for you at any given moment - just be a scientist, take the best judgment you can, and do your best with the consequences. life is a confusing mess. but if you're still alive, know that some part of you has found a reason to live, and you gotta run with it.

[Guest mafted]

thank you

[J3FF3R00]

I'm rather well adjusted and therefore have nothing to add. Sorry :(