awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians. In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again. there isn't any doubt that they will create more anti american sentiment but i don't think thats a good reason at all for not releasing them. give me a better reason for showing them then. there is still a good chunk of people in this country who simply do not believe the abuse took place, photographic evidence is hard to outright deny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians. In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again. there isn't any doubt that they will create more anti american sentiment but i don't think thats a good reason at all for not releasing them. give me a better reason for showing them then. there is still a good chunk of people in this country who simply do not believe the abuse took place, photographic evidence is hard to outright deny And a court ruling won't prove they are wrong? Plus who gives a shit about people who don't look at the facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 obama caved to petraeus and pressure from military leaders. anyway, i agree with the sentiment of the op, but i don't think the argument is very strong. if we could get some kind of apology and reconciliation from bush, that might actually soften the blow of not having these photos in the public sphere. but as it is, i'm not going to say give obama a break, but just try to be a bit more realistic about what you're asking. he's sitting on the remains of a political and cultural clusterfuck that is the last thirty years of us policy, it isn't going to get fixed overnight and there is going to be some heartbreak involved in the decision making process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Salads Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians. In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again. there isn't any doubt that they will create more anti american sentiment but i don't think thats a good reason at all for not releasing them. give me a better reason for showing them then. there is still a good chunk of people in this country who simply do not believe the abuse took place, photographic evidence is hard to outright deny And a court ruling won't prove they are wrong? Plus who gives a shit about people who don't look at the facts... exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 obama caved to petraeus and pressure from military leaders. but i don't think the argument is very strong. if we could get some kind of apology and reconciliation from bush, that might actually soften the blow of not having these photos in the public sphere. but as it is, i'm not going to say give obama a break, but just try to be a bit more realistic about what you're asking. he's sitting on the remains of a political and cultural clusterfuck that is the last thirty years of us policy, it isn't going to get fixed overnight and there is going to be some heartbreak involved in the decision making process. well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 obama caved to petraeus and pressure from military leaders. anyway, i agree with the sentiment of the op, but i don't think the argument is very strong. if we could get some kind of apology and reconciliation from bush, that might actually soften the blow of not having these photos in the public sphere. but as it is, i'm not going to say give obama a break, but just try to be a bit more realistic about what you're asking. he's sitting on the remains of a political and cultural clusterfuck that is the last thirty years of us policy, it isn't going to get fixed overnight and there is going to be some heartbreak involved in the decision making process. how so? he campaigned on the concept that he would listen to our military leaders... unlike Bush and Cheney who ignored the early reports given by the Military that the Iraq situation would not be an easy war... I am for politicians who listen to our military leaders on military policies... why else would we have them... You guys seem to have already resented Obama from the start... he has to get Bush to apologize to the American people... even Nixon didn't do that until years after Watergate... I know its lame to say "give him a break" but ... what you guys expect... I'd think we were living in some dream government. obama caved to petraeus and pressure from military leaders. but i don't think the argument is very strong. if we could get some kind of apology and reconciliation from bush, that might actually soften the blow of not having these photos in the public sphere. but as it is, i'm not going to say give obama a break, but just try to be a bit more realistic about what you're asking. he's sitting on the remains of a political and cultural clusterfuck that is the last thirty years of us policy, it isn't going to get fixed overnight and there is going to be some heartbreak involved in the decision making process. well said you going to respond to my points?... or is this a complete waste of my time arguing with people who like to "stay the course" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 uys seem to have already resented Obama from the start... he has to get Bush to apologize to the American people... even Nixon didn't do that until years after Watergate... there is no resentment here it's just me disagreeing with what i consider to be serious policy shifts from the direction i assumed things were going. Nixon was officially pardoned for criminal wrong doing by Ford. Bush isn't even being considered officially for any kind of investigations, Nixon was on the other hand being investigated by various entities. This is going to sound weird coming from me but i think Obama should pardon Bush's entire administration if he never intends to actually invesitgate them, this way at least he'd be acknowledging the obvious law breaking that took place rather than looking the other way, ignoring law breaking and 'moving forward' you going to respond to my points?... or is this a complete waste of my time arguing with people who like to "stay the course" sorry just catching up with the thread, i just responded to your later point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yegg Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 lol, KK is being a little bitch. *gets arrested* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 uys seem to have already resented Obama from the start... he has to get Bush to apologize to the American people... even Nixon didn't do that until years after Watergate... there is no resentment here it's just me disagreeing with what i consider to be serious policy shifts from the direction i assumed things were going. Nixon was officially pardoned for criminal wrong doing by Ford. Bush isn't even being considered officially for any kind of investigations, Nixon was on the other hand being investigated by various entities. This is going to sound weird coming from me but i think Obama should pardon Bush's entire administration if he never intends to actually invesitgate them, this way at least he'd be acknowledging the obvious law breaking that took place rather than looking the other way, ignoring law breaking and 'moving forward' you going to respond to my points?... or is this a complete waste of my time arguing with people who like to "stay the course" sorry just catching up with the thread, i just responded to your later point first) there was quite a long post I made on the previous page... second) he released the memo's that claimed waterboarding... how is that ignoring the issue? this forum seems completely anti-obama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 i have absolutely no resentment toward obama and i didn't feel that way prior to his being elected either (i voted for him). i was just trying to clarify my opinion with awepittance because i generally agree with him, i just don't think we should be calling obama out, personally, for policy decisions that aren't completely up to him due to larger pressures and factors left over from previous administrations. so i'm in the middle on this. sort of like obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 i have absolutely no resentment toward obama and i didn't feel that way prior to his being elected either (i voted for him). i was just trying to clarify my opinion with awepittance because i generally agree with him, i just don't think we should be calling obama out, personally, for policy decisions that aren't completely up to him due to larger pressures and factors left over from previous administrations. so i'm in the middle on this. sort of like obama. hmmm so you call Awe naive, yet you voted for Obama and now "sort of" only like him cause he backpedalled on a few issues... kind of hypocritical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest analogue wings Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 pedalled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zaphod Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 what? i didn't call awepittance naive, i said he would be naive to think that, which he then clarified for me. i can change my opinion of a president, and i voted for obama knowing full well what his policies were and what i disliked about him. also you can't read, or i can't write, apparently, because the sentence fragment "sort of like obama" is meant to be a continuation of the thought that i'm "in the middle on this", which is kind of a joke since obama seems relatively noncommittal to most issues and uses rhetoric to push ideas forward without putting them into action. but then that's how politics works and that's the reality of being president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 pedalled could you guys do this for all my posts? it would help greatly... it's like my own personal spell check! thanks! saves me time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest analogue wings Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 it's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 what? i didn't call awepittance naive, i said he would be naive to think that, which he then clarified for me. i can change my opinion of a president, and i voted for obama knowing full well what his policies were and what i disliked about him. also you can't read, or i can't write, apparently, because the sentence fragment "sort of like obama" is meant to be a continuation of the thought that i'm "in the middle on this", which is kind of a joke since obama seems relatively noncommittal to most issues and uses rhetoric to push ideas forward without putting them into action. but then that's how politics works and that's the reality of being president. oh awesome grammatical tools are also included on watmm! when were these features installed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 It a decision by a statesman, the release of the photographs would only polarize american society. there's no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 first) there was quite a long post I made on the previous page... i'll try to respond to it tonight second) he released the memo's that claimed waterboarding... how is that ignoring the issue? to say that the OLC memos he chose to release is the opposte of ignoring the issue would be a selective argument. he released certain memos heavily redacted only after a series of lawsuits by the ACLU and other civil liberties groups put pressure on his administration. And keep in mind that the memos he decided to release didn't include any new information that wasn't already in the public record before. All it did from my perspective is bring the issue back into popular discussion. There are quite a few other memos that the Obama administration has continually tried to keep secret in regards to Bush war crimes below are some other examples of how he has used Bush's creation of the 'state secrets privilege' to block many other torture memos or internal documents requested by Guantanamo detainees or ACLU lawyers Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed The United States Government's position is that, if the redacted paragraphs are made public, then the United States will re-evaluate its intelligence-sharing relationship with the United Kingdom with the real risk that it would reduce the intelligence it provided (para. 62) . . . . [and] there is a real risk, if we restored the redacted paragraphs, the United States Government, by its review of the shared intelligence arrangements, could inflict on the citizens of the United Kingdom a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains (para. 106). Obama Mimics Bush on 'state secrets' In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's this forum seems completely anti-obama again there is no need to sink to Bush loyalist republicans, this is something they would say for merely having a strong disagreement with the president Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Stay the course kramer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 It a decision by a statesman, the release of the photographs would only polarize american society. there's no point. exactly... as president he is suppose to unite the people not make our already divided fucked nation more divided... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 first) there was quite a long post I made on the previous page... i'll try to respond to it tonight second) he released the memo's that claimed waterboarding... how is that ignoring the issue? to say that the OLC memos he chose to release is the opposte of ignoring the issue would be a selective argument. he released certain memos heavily redacted only after a series of lawsuits by the ACLU and other civil liberties groups put pressure on his administration. And keep in mind that the memos he decided to release didn't include any new information that wasn't already in the public record before. All it did from my perspective is bring the issue back into popular discussion. There are quite a few other memos that the Obama administration has continually tried to keep secret in regards to Bush war crimes below are some other examples of how he has used Bush's creation of the 'state secrets privilege' to block many other torture memos or internal documents requested by Guantanamo detainees or ACLU lawyers Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed The United States Government's position is that, if the redacted paragraphs are made public, then the United States will re-evaluate its intelligence-sharing relationship with the United Kingdom with the real risk that it would reduce the intelligence it provided (para. 62) . . . . [and] there is a real risk, if we restored the redacted paragraphs, the United States Government, by its review of the shared intelligence arrangements, could inflict on the citizens of the United Kingdom a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains (para. 106). Obama Mimics Bush on 'state secrets' In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's this forum seems completely anti-obama again there is no need to sink to Bush loyalist republicans, this is something they would say for merely having a strong disagreement with the president Alright, this feels more like a discussion not a argument based on "feelings" and "thoughts"... Your points are valid that he hasn't gone as far as he could with the memo's etc... however, in my mind if you look at the MSM right now, he certainly went far enough, because as you can see we are discussing it. So yeah more photos and memo's released would make Bush look even worse... but in the overall picture it would just polarize this country even more, so its not worth it. Everyone knows Cheney is pretty fucked up... all we need to do is focus on the evidence that can prosecute him and others... adding photos and memo's isn't going to make the charges greater it will just make Bush and Cheney look even more fucked up... Honestly I just want to move on from the bush years as soon as possible... let washington do the necessary investigation regarding this issue.. but I would rather if Obama focused on more important things facing our nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest analogue wings Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 It a decision by a statesman, the release of the photographs would only polarize american society. there's no point. exactly... as president he is suppose to unite the people not make our already divided fucked nation more divided... supposed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 It a decision by a statesman, the release of the photographs would only polarize american society. there's no point. exactly... as president he is suppose to unite the people not make our already divided fucked nation more divided... supposed too slow... I can no longer edit :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Alright, this feels more like a discussion not a argument based on "feelings" and "thoughts"... Your points are valid that he hasn't gone as far as he could with the memo's etc... however, in my mind if you look at the MSM right now, he certainly went far enough, because as you can see we are discussing it. with tunnel vision looking at torture as a wrong headed policy i still can't get on board that Obama has gone far enough. He has done many things to block organic investigations of the Bush administration in his first 100 days in office. He can and should go a lot farther, by simply standing aside and letting the criminal justice system work naturally. Honestly I just want to move on from the bush years as soon as possible... let washington do the necessary investigation regarding this issue.. but I would rather if Obama focused on more important things facing our nation. this is the very crux of my discontentment right now. I want to move on too but the Bush imprint still remains. The Bush years can't be moved on from if Obama is continuing policies Bush invented. Torture is only one fragment of the illegality that went on under Bush and many other Bush policies probably still continue under Obama (since obama has not made moves in the opposite direction one can only assume these policies stay). NSA warrantless wiretapping still continues under Obama, check out that article i posted. Patriot act still continues under obama. Secret Rendition (torturing people on airplanes or international waters and lawless countries) still continues under obama. All of these are equally troubling to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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