karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Alright, this feels more like a discussion not a argument based on "feelings" and "thoughts"... Your points are valid that he hasn't gone as far as he could with the memo's etc... however, in my mind if you look at the MSM right now, he certainly went far enough, because as you can see we are discussing it. with tunnel vision looking at torture as a wrong headed policy i still can't get on board that Obama has gone far enough. He has done many things to block organic investigations of the Bush administration in his first 100 days in office. He can and should go a lot farther, by simply standing aside and letting the criminal justice system work naturally. Honestly I just want to move on from the bush years as soon as possible... let washington do the necessary investigation regarding this issue.. but I would rather if Obama focused on more important things facing our nation. this is the very crux of my discontentment right now. I want to move on too but the Bush imprint still remains. The Bush years can't be moved on from if Obama is continuing policies Bush invented. Torture is only one fragment of the illegality that went on under Bush and that probably still continues under Obama (since obama has not made moves in the opposite direction one can only assume these policies stay). NSA warrantless wiretapping still continues under Obama, check out that article i posted. Patriot act still continues under obama. Secret Rendition (torturing people on airplanes or international waters and lawless countries) still continues under obama. All of these are equally troubling to me. Alright now you are assuming he is waterboarding... obviously someone is feeding you bullshit. Give me some links, not just, man the government is bad therefore we can "assume" they will continue to be bad. You are just repeating yourself in new ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Oh wait here is your links... http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/...re-we-will.html In the interview, Obama criticized Vice President Dick Cheney for his public defense of "extraordinary" interrogation methods used against top terrorism suspects, including simulated drowning known as waterboarding. "Vice President Cheney, I think, continues to defend what he calls extraordinary measures or procedures when it comes to interrogations and from my view waterboarding is torture," Obama said. "I have said that under my administration we will not torture." Obama declined to say whether he could appoint a special prosecutor to look into possible charges against Bush and his deputies, saying the issue whould be up to his attorney general. "He is the people's lawyer," he said of the attorney general-designate, Eric Holder. He said this on January 11th 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Alright now you are assuming he is waterboarding... obviously someone is feeding you bullshit. Give me some links, not just, man the government is bad therefore we can "assume" they will continue to be bad. You are just repeating yourself in new ways... i realized after i saw my own post it was a typo, i meant that other bush policies that i disagree with are most likely being continued. in my honest opinion i highly doubt Obama would allow water boarding now if he knew it was going on, i at least give him more credit on that than Bush or cheney. but i'd love for you to address some of my other points and/or the links i posted about Obama upholding Bush state secrets privileges on things including torture and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Alright now you are assuming he is waterboarding... obviously someone is feeding you bullshit. Give me some links, not just, man the government is bad therefore we can "assume" they will continue to be bad. You are just repeating yourself in new ways... i realized after i saw my own post it was a typo, i meant that other bush policies that i disagree with are most likely being continued. in my honest opinion i highly doubt Obama would allow water boarding now if he knew it was going on, i at least give him more credit on that than Bush or cheney. but i'd love for you to address some of my other points and/or the links i posted about Obama upholding Bush state secrets privileges on things including torture and beyond. where are these other points?/links? you got to be more specific so I can actually respond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed The United States Government's position is that, if the redacted paragraphs are made public, then the United States will re-evaluate its intelligence-sharing relationship with the United Kingdom with the real risk that it would reduce the intelligence it provided (para. 62) . . . . [and] there is a real risk, if we restored the redacted paragraphs, the United States Government, by its review of the shared intelligence arrangements, could inflict on the citizens of the United Kingdom a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains (para. 106). the actual above quote is from the Obama administration's Justice department own words to the court, kind of creepy huh? Obama Mimics Bush on 'state secrets' In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's and i have to ask for those who agree with Obama currently about NOT releasing the photos, what were your thoughts last week on his decision to release the photos? were you opposed to it? or for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed The United States Government's position is that, if the redacted paragraphs are made public, then the United States will re-evaluate its intelligence-sharing relationship with the United Kingdom with the real risk that it would reduce the intelligence it provided (para. 62) . . . . [and] there is a real risk, if we restored the redacted paragraphs, the United States Government, by its review of the shared intelligence arrangements, could inflict on the citizens of the United Kingdom a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains (para. 106). the actual above quote is from the Obama administration's Justice department own words to the court, kind of creepy huh? Obama Mimics Bush on 'state secrets' In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's and i have to ask for those who agree with Obama currently about NOT releasing the photos, what were your thoughts last week on his decision to release the photos? were you opposed to it? or for it? Interesting, I disagree with Obama on these two issues then... hopefully democrats will demand them to be overturned and he changes his policies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Secret Rendition (torturing people on airplanes...) big deal, that happens to me every time I fly economy *rimshot* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 well this was fun, going to leave now got shit to do, good discussion Awe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed The United States Government's position is that, if the redacted paragraphs are made public, then the United States will re-evaluate its intelligence-sharing relationship with the United Kingdom with the real risk that it would reduce the intelligence it provided (para. 62) . . . . [and] there is a real risk, if we restored the redacted paragraphs, the United States Government, by its review of the shared intelligence arrangements, could inflict on the citizens of the United Kingdom a very considerable increase in the dangers they face at a time when a serious terrorist threat still pertains (para. 106). the actual above quote is from the Obama administration's Justice department own words to the court, kind of creepy huh? Obama Mimics Bush on 'state secrets' In Warrantless Wiretapping Case, Obama DOJ's New Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's and i have to ask for those who agree with Obama currently about NOT releasing the photos, what were your thoughts last week on his decision to release the photos? were you opposed to it? or for it? Interesting, I disagree with Obama on these two issues then... hopefully democrats will demand them to be overturned and he changes his policies... lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boo Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 america sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3FF3R00 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 obama rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boo Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 crazy women! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr lopez Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 page three is lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Secret Rendition (torturing people on airplanes...) big deal, that happens to me every time I fly economy *rimshot* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3FF3R00 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I live in a windmill and wear wooden shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpenprol Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Man, this is so vile: "And an Army psychiatrist assigned to support questioning of suspected terrorists at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba told the service's inspector-general that interrogators there were trying to connect al Qaeda and Iraq. "This is my opinion," Maj. Paul Burney told the inspector-general's office. "Even though they were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link ... there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results." http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/14...ture/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Man, this is so vile: "And an Army psychiatrist assigned to support questioning of suspected terrorists at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba told the service's inspector-general that interrogators there were trying to connect al Qaeda and Iraq. "This is my opinion," Maj. Paul Burney told the inspector-general's office. "Even though they were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link ... there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results." http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/14...ture/index.html This is pretty insane. I hope the Bush Administration does end up fucked over this... if not just the simple fact of how terrible of a job they did overall in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 wow only 1 day later Obama's on a roll Obama Breaks Major Campaign Promise as Military Commissions Resume, Says Amnesty InternationalHuman Rights Organization Reiterates Call for Detainees to be Tried in US Federal Courts i can't see any other reason for this decision besides knowing that the charges put upon these people would probably not hold up in a normal american federal court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Man, this is so vile: "And an Army psychiatrist assigned to support questioning of suspected terrorists at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba told the service's inspector-general that interrogators there were trying to connect al Qaeda and Iraq. "This is my opinion," Maj. Paul Burney told the inspector-general's office. "Even though they were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between aI Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link ... there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results." http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/14...ture/index.html hah christ, i guess it's good to see that it's mainstream news now that we were literally trying to illicit false confessions through physical and psychological pain. I know i get heat for my opinions on 9/11 but maybe some will change their mind now with the understanding that a lot of the information gathered for the 9/11 commission report was also achieved through torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 wow only 1 day later Obama's on a roll Obama Breaks Major Campaign Promise as Military Commissions Resume, Says Amnesty InternationalHuman Rights Organization Reiterates Call for Detainees to be Tried in US Federal Courts i can't see any other reason for this decision besides knowing that the charges put upon these people would probably not hold up in a normal american federal court you ever going to get to that post on the last page? :p And yeah this is troubling as I said, I still think he is handling the waterboarding/CIA shit correctly though... We'll see if after he gets his second term if he continues down this path... my assumption is that he doesn't want to abolish everything regarding national security yet until the shit in Afghanistan/Pakistan is figured out... Can you imagine if he got rid of wiretapping and other Patriot Act/Bush shit and then we get attacked again... it would almost justify to America that Bush did keep us safe (when this is completely false). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Can you imagine if he got rid of wiretapping and other Patriot Act/Bush shit and then we get attacked again... it would almost justify to America that Bush did keep us safe (when this is completely false). i highly doubt it, the republicans have cried wolf too many times. each time Obama or the democrats do something that is slightly repealing of Bush foriegn policy is called 'siding with al queda' or 'leaving us vulnerable to attack'. i also don't buy into the idea that the Patriot act has ever been used for keeping america safe from 'terrorist' attacks. I'm sure some people still do but those numbers are slim compared to what they used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Can you imagine if he got rid of wiretapping and other Patriot Act/Bush shit and then we get attacked again... it would almost justify to America that Bush did keep us safe (when this is completely false). i highly doubt it, the republicans have cried wolf too many times. each time Obama or the democrats do something that is slightly repealing of Bush foriegn policy is called 'siding with al queda' or 'leaving us vulnerable to attack'. i also don't buy into the idea that the Patriot act has ever been used for keeping america safe from 'terrorist' attacks. I'm sure some people still do but those numbers are slim compared to what they used to be. I think what Obama has done is a good balance... its basically the best they could do. I know we should demand the morally/constitutionally correct route, but these issues are far more complex then we can understand. Whats your theory on 9/11... honestly I am starting to think that Bush/Cheney purposefully did very little to stop any attacks for the sole purpose that they knew the outcome of an attack would be beneficial for them. Isn't it interesting that the first thing the 9/11 commission established was that it would not "blame anyone." WTF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Whats your theory on 9/11... :laughing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakramer Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Whats your theory on 9/11... :laughing: I don't believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by the government... no way could the incompetent George HW Bush orchestrate the biggest cover up in American history... I just think its possible that Bush/Cheney knew Osama/Al Qaeda were a threat (they knew they were taking aviation training)... but did very little, knowing an attack would be beneficial for their efforts to start a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 You obviously don't know awepittance that well :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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