From the West Bank: When Brutality Enters the Mainstream

[eugene]

the original non edited version of the poll that makes more sense:

 

69% of Israelis think Israel should accept the decision if indeed the UN recognizes a Palestinian state, and either start negotiations with the Palestinians about its implementation (34%) or not allow any change on the ground by the Palestinians (35%); 16% believe Israel should oppose the decision and intensify the construction in the settlements; 7% think that Israel should annex to Israel the PA territory; and 4% think Israel should invade the PA and use force in order to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

 

http://truman.huji.a...view.asp?id=408

[eugene]

regarding this incident ill take it back what i said about yasin wounds, after checking some activists' blogs i saw a video where he sits on a rock with a blood on his hand, but then he isn't getting treated by the activists either so i assume his wound wasn't serious.

post the video please.

 

a blog post from another activists says yasin was pushed and fell on a rock. but it's still not "First they cracked open Yasin’s head", in another video you can see other settlers trying to hold back the more violent thug who grabs a rock.

 

post the blog and video link please.

 

my sources are in hebrew, but if you feel like google translating:

http://2nd-ops.com/esty/?p=74248

http://www.justjlm.org/1583

http://www.mysay.co....rticlePI=aaauak

 

Next time I will back everything I say with texts written in Sumerian and kindly ask you to do 'google translating'.

 

[murve33]

the original non edited version of the poll that makes more sense:

 

69% of Israelis think Israel should accept the decision if indeed the UN recognizes a Palestinian state, and either start negotiations with the Palestinians about its implementation (34%) or not allow any change on the ground by the Palestinians (35%); 16% believe Israel should oppose the decision and intensify the construction in the settlements; 7% think that Israel should annex to Israel the PA territory; and 4% think Israel should invade the PA and use force in order to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

 

http://truman.huji.a...view.asp?id=408

I'm a little confused by the poll. What exactly do the 35% want?

[eugene]

they don't want to appear as going against the will of so many nations but then they also don't agree to the unilateral land grab by the palestinians.

[Cazador Mod Unit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMycC_WlLxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKzNrNhTu5w

 

Thanks. There is one video missing though, is this the reason why the settlers punch in the face, throw rocks at and try to stab the Israeli activists?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auJypcymawY&feature=related

[eugene]

there are too many reasons, but mostly they just hate their guts.

[Cazador Mod Unit]

there are too many reasons, but mostly they just hate their guts.

 

No comments.

 

the way flotilla incident was covered by mainstream is exactly how it should have been covered, a footage of soldiers getting beat up and thrown head down to lower deck was all the explanation you needed for the cause of 9 deaths, soldiers are allowed to open live fire if their lives are endangered, a later un report found no evidence that live shots were fired before the soldiers landed.

 

Not so easy.

 

An account of the incident by the United Nations Human Rights Council, rejected by Israel, who accused them of having a history of Anti-Israel bias.

 

 

 

In its first report, submitted in September 2010, the UN fact-finding mission found that the IDF broke international law, and that there was evidence sufficient to initiate prosecutions for breaches of the Geneva Convention. The report stated that: "The conduct of the Israeli military and other personnel towards the flotilla passengers was not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence,"[242] and determined that Israeli commandos summarily executed six passengers aboard the MV Mavi Marmara.[35][117] It cites forensic analysis indicating that Furgan Dogan was shot five times, including once in the face while he was lying on his back. "All of the entry wounds were on the back of his body except for the face wound, which entered the right of his nose", the report concluded. "According to forensic analysis, tattooing around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point-blank range."[35]

The report stated: "There is clear evidence to support prosecutions of the following crimes within the terms of article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: wilful killing; torture or inhuman treatment; wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health".[242][243] The report also stated that it found no medical evidence of IDF commandos being shot.[35] It recommended that Israel pay reparations, and also described Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip as "totally intolerable and unacceptable in the 21st century".

The United States expressed concern about the tone, content and conclusions of the report, while the European Union said that it should be transferred to the UN Secretary-General's investigation.[244] On 29 September 2010 the UN Human Rights Council voted to endorse the report, with 30 of the 47 countries voting in favor, the United States voting against, and 15 countries, including EU members, abstaining.[35]

 

 

 

Another account of the incident, this time by a UN based four panel member committee including a former prime minister of New Zealand and the infamous ex-President from Colombia Alvaro Uribe. 'Turkey criticized the report for accepting Israel's blockade as legal, and Turkey's president Abdullah Gul said his country considered the report "null and void". Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmed Davutoglu said the UN hadn't endorsed the Palmer report and that Turkey was going to challenge the legality of the blockade in the International Court of Justice.'

 

 

 

The report was published on 2 September 2011[249][250] after being delayed, reportedly to allow Israel and Turkey to continue reconciliation talks.[251] The commission determined Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip to be legal,[252] but stated that the "decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable." The commission questioned the motivations of the Flotilla stating that "There exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly IHH".[253] The commission recognized that the IDF were met with "organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers" upon boarding the vessel and therefore force was necessary for purposes of self defense,[254] but stated that "the loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable".[4]

Of those killed, the report noted, "no evidence has been provided to establish that any of the deceased were armed with lethal weapons". It further noted that "at least one of those killed, Furkan Dogan, was shot at extremely close range. Mr. Dogan sustained wounds to the face, back of the skull, back and left leg. That suggests he may already have been lying wounded when the fatal shot was delivered, as suggested by witness accounts to that effect." Israel's failure to provide an explanation for or details on this and the other nine deaths was criticized.[255]

In regards to the Gaza blockade, the commission writes:

"Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza...The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law."[254]

The report was also critical of the flotilla, describing it as "reckless". Turkey was reportedly criticized as well for not doing more to persuade flotilla participants to avoid armed conflict with Israeli soldiers.[254] Finally, the report presented the following as rapprochement, i.e., for the re-establishment of cordial relations between Turkey and Israel:

"An appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of the incident in light of its consequences. Israel should offer payment for the benefit of the deceased and injured victims and their families...Turkey and Israel should resume full diplomatic relations..."

Israel's ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, said "We think it was a fair and balanced report", and that Israel would not apologize to Turkey.[256] The Israeli Prime Minister's office stated that Israel has adopted the report, except for its conclusions regarding the use of force in the flotilla raid.

 

 

 

Wikipedia reports

http://en.wikipedia....a_flotilla_raid

Warning: article has more than 15,000 words.

[eugene]

you can't really form a valid investigation without considering the israeli soldiers testimonies on the takeover which were not provided for whatever reasons. therefore all of those reports are extremely biased as all of the testimonies were provided only by those who staged this provocation/lynch. but even without the israeli soldiers' testimonies, it's actually quite surprising that only 9 were killed because as seen on the videos there are many more people participating in the attack on the soldiers.

[awepittance]

the original non edited version of the poll that makes more sense:

 

i was just trying to find polls to point out to watmm that your opinion s about Israeli policies and it's government are not mainstream opinion. There are a lot of Israelis who don't believe in the same things you do. Just like certain Americans tend to give America a bad name, i'm trying to distance the people of Israel from yourself and it's government. It's kind of a shame that Eugene's voice on this forum is the only Israeli voice we have.

[eugene]

well fine, most of us are pretty damn bad though

[Cazador Mod Unit]

you can't really form a valid investigation without considering the israeli soldiers testimonies on the takeover which were not provided for whatever reasons.

 

UNHRC fact-finding mission

On 23 July 2010 the United Nations Human Rights Council launched an independent fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international law that may have occurred during the flotilla raid.[241] Israel refused to allow the panel to interview Israeli witnesses and accused the UNHRC of a history of anti-Israel bias.[35]

 

NC

 

therefore all of those reports are extremely biased as all of the testimonies were provided only by those who staged this provocation/lynch.

.

 

To call this a 'provocation/lynch' is very confusing. Who was 'provoked/lynched'?

 

but even without the israeli soldiers' testimonies, it's actually quite surprising that only 9 were killed because as seen on the videos there are many more people participating in the attack on the soldiers.

 

The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (?HH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli-Egyptian blockade of the Gaza Strip.[39][40][41] Israel questioned the humanitarian motives of flotilla organizers, saying it had invited the organizers to use the land crossings but they had refused.[42]

 

Three of the flotilla ships carried only passengers and their personal belongings.[43] Whereas in previous voyages, Free Gaza vessels carried 140 passengers in total, in this flotilla, over 600 activists were on board the Mavi Marmara alone.[14]

 

Three other ships carried cargo: 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid, with an estimated value of $20 million. Reports disagree about the presence and quantity of paramilitary equipment.[44]

 

For the initial leg of the voyage, six of the eight ships set out on 30 May 2010 from international waters off the coast of Cyprus;[45] the remaining two were delayed by mechanical problems.[46] There are suggestions that the IDF or Mossad may have sabotaged three of the ships before the raid.[47]

Ships

 

The ships of the Gaza flotilla raid comprised three passenger ships[43] and three cargo ships:

• Challenger 1 (small yacht),[43] United States, Free Gaza Movement
  
• MS Eleftheri Mesogios (Free Mediterranean) or Sofia (cargo boat), Greece[48] Greek Ship to Gaza
  
• Sfendoni (small passenger boat), Greece[43] Greek Ship to Gaza and European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza
  
• MV Mavi Marmara (passenger ship),[43] Comoros, ?HH
  
• Gazze, Turkey, ?HH
  
• Defne Y, Kiribati, ?HH
  

Two other Free Gaza Movement ships had mechanical problems:[46] Challenger 2 (USA flagged) had to turn back half way through the voyage and MV Rachel Corrie (Cambodia flagged) docked in Malta for repairs and continued separately.

 

Only MV Mavi Marmara resisted the attack.

 

Do you want me to quote what happened on the other five ships?

[eugene]

does the fact that israel refused to provide witnesses make the UNHRC and palmer report, which only interviewed marmara activists, more valid ? the question why israel refused is a different story.

 

israel was provoked because the aid is delivered through the land crossings where the contains can be checked, the blockade is considered legal even by un now. the lynch attempt was on the soldiers, there are very vivid videos on youtube.

 

israel hasn't denied the fact that there were no weapons on the ships, it's the fact that such flotillas might become a dangerous precedent that was problematic.

i don't quite understand what are you trying to prove with the number of passangers ? the only really violent ones were the IHH members on marmara.

i can tell you what happened on other ships myself from memory, as the were no violent elements like IHH on other ships, the takeover ended with only a couple of lightly wounded from crowd control weapons if im not mistaken.

[Cazador Mod Unit]

you Eugene, are a horrible human being and I'm done with all the cooking / house chores so I thank the heavens that I don't live anywhere near your unfortunate country and it's oppressed people ergo, I don't need to deal with this shit IRL until I'm bored again and feel the urge to save the world one thread at a time i.e. Monday at work.

 

See you there.

[SR4]

cmon lets play nice

[Cazador Mod Unit]

hahah OK. It's just that the kind of unchill doublespeak that this troll uses is the polar opposite of cool.

 

It's obvious I can't do this thread anymore so whatever, he wins.

[SR4]

i have never known an argument involving Israel that ever ended amicably.

[Cazador Mod Unit]

It's the ultimate political taboo, isn't it?

 

I try my best not to read news on Palestine because they break my heart but recently with the Flotilla, the bid for statehood in the UN and now this (both nyrb articles on the peace activists), as much as I'm horrified there appears to be some sort of hope for these people. It's just too bad we don't live in 1930's and Israel is not the Spanish Civil War because I would probably be on my way over there. They are giving the future * world a master class in courage and humility in the face of state-media terrorism.

 

* not the one we are living in, which is deaf, old and decrepit.

[eugene]

you could terrorize me verbally on watmm as part of your solidarity with the palestinian resistance to zionism, how do you like that idea ?

[Cazador Mod Unit]

Totally forgot to say that in the case of a highly hypothetical case for an impossibly dangerous trip to the modern Capital of Injustice and Suffering on Planet Earth, I would offer my humble services and limited knowledge of civil disobedience, internet stuff, PR. I'm not into violence.

 

kthxbye.

[SR4]

there is some hope for both parties if not for the uberpowerful lobbyists.

 

i remember reading an article about the increase in a radical movement within zionism itself that opposes most of the current israeli foreign policy, as it endangers the security of a Jewish state more than it helps defend it. ill see if i can dig it up...very interesting stuff though.