Uploading consciousness into a computer

[Guest Rambo]

Okay this is the hypothetical situation:

 

Uploading has been proven to be possible and it's free.

 

For the sake of having a fairly straightforward discussion, there are no concerns about the people/company who run the simulation. Let's say the world is a utopia in terms of politics, money and power.

 

The only possibility here is to permanently upload into a virtual world not into a humanoid robot or some kind of immortal avatar that acts in the physical world.

 

The graphics are almost indistinguishable from "reality" and there is almost unlimited potential to create new virtual environments.

 

The main world within the simulation is a shared space for everyone who has uploaded but you also have a personal space where you have complete freedom to create what you like.

 

You could still interact with people who hadn't uploaded.

[joseph]

As soon as it became available.

 

Note: Just because uploading has been proven to be possible in the sense that uploaded people could act exactly as non-uploaded humans would, that still does not prove that from the first-person perspective that consciousness is preserved.

[Cryptowen]

I think the catch here is that you'd have no way of knowing beforehand if it's actually you who ends up in the computer world, or just a replica indistinguishable to everyone else on the planet.

[chaosmachine]

at best, you're only making a copy.

 

these kind of devices are plot points in more than a few of iain m. banks' culture novels (highly recommended, btw). "surface detail" and "look to windward" are some of the better ones I've read, so far.

 

he does a good job of dealing with the various paradoxes/conflicts, although it's one of those things where there really are no truly satisfactory answers...

[joseph]

at best, you're only making a copy.

 

So how do you predict whether you will experience being the copy in the real world or that copy in the computer?

 

The best mind-uploading novel is easily Greg Egan's Permutation City

[chaosmachine]

at best, you're only making a copy.

 

So how do you predict whether you will experience being the copy in the real world or that copy in the computer?

 

the problem is you'll be both, and they'll start diverging instantly. unless you want to kill the organic you...

 

here you go:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc

 

special bonus for boc fans: it's a national film board of canada piece.

[Cryptowen]

The only way I could see a transfer working is if they did a Ship of Theseus type deal, slowly replacing organic parts of the brain with robot parts over several sessions, in the hopes that the original consciousness would reconfigure itself into a digital one instead of being replaced. But that would require a machine that can directly integrate with the human mind.

 

Also I bet there's a whole new-age spaceman angle where if you died & were replaced by an identical consciousness that everyone thought was you, maybe your personal perception would transfer over to it as part of some universal hive-mind type a shit

[joseph]

at best, you're only making a copy.

 

So how do you predict whether you will experience being the copy in the real world or that copy in the computer?

 

the problem is you'll be both, and they'll start diverging instantly. unless you want to kill the organic you...

 

well, yeah, of course they'll both "be" you from an outsider's perspective. I'm saying which one will you experience being? Can that be predicted?

[Cryptowen]

Maybe you'd be both at once.

We don't really have any point of reference to how consciousness is experienced by two separate but identical minds with shared memories

[chaosmachine]

unless you think there's some magical soul or psychic link... it seems pretty clear that you won't be experiencing both conciousnesses any more than twins or mothers and babies or clones do.

[Hugh Mughnus]

I have an entire university course based on this topic right now.

[joseph]

unless you think there's some magical soul or psychic link... it seems pretty clear that you won't be experiencing both conciousnesses any more than twins or mothers and babies or clones do.

 

Experiencing both at once violates relativity and more importantly, it contradicts the idea that the copy was "you" to begin with.

 

The answer seems to be that you cannot predict beforehand which one you will experience.

[Hugh Mughnus]

unless you think there's some magical soul or psychic link... it seems pretty clear that you won't be experiencing both conciousnesses any more than twins or mothers and babies or clones do.

 

Experiencing both at once violates relativity and more importantly, it contradicts the idea that the copy was "you" to begin with.

 

The answer seems to be that you cannot predict beforehand which one you will experience.

 

"The answer seems to be that you cannot predict beforehand which one you will experience."

 

This is the premise for quantum computing isn't it?!?

 

 

They have been quite successful in the last 3 or 4 years making this premise a reality.

 

This can be quite a complex topic.... Although it defies the laws of relativity keep in mind relativity is only applicable at certain scales, IE the macro scales. Once you hit micro and sub-micro (quantum) scales relativity doesn't seem to apply at all.

 

Physics jibber jabber but still applicable when it comes to consciousness because everything is composed of the most basic building blocks, right?

 

From what I understand your consciousness exists in many forms and in fact your own self exists in almost infinite re-iterations based on a light cone/swath of light and how this collapses reality into a singularity. Light exists as both a wave and beam simultaneously, etc etc. This reminds me of schroedingers "cat in a box" experiment.

 

Of course the light cone imposes some limitations on the reality and consciousness based on it's swath =/

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Light_cone

[lumpenprol]

surprising that most would do it immediately. Why not continue to live in our world, and play time sucking virtual worlds like WoW or Minecraft? Best of both worlds. Also I would feel like a phony getting utopia handed to me on a plate.

 

But if I was about to die? Absolutely. Nothing to lose.

[Guest Rambo]

Neither are "you" in the sense that most people currently perceive to be themselves. That's why people struggle with these debates. You aren't here. There never was any permanent entity there.

 

All that is fundamentally required here is that the illusion of continued self is maintained after the uploading. That's all you have right now, a sense of continuity that keeps the game going.

[joseph]

"The answer seems to be that you cannot predict beforehand which one you will experience."

 

This is the premise for quantum computing isn't it?!?

not really, quantum computers harness qubits (instead of classical bits), which can be in a superposition of states (which potentially could lead to large leaps in efficiency; however a quantum computer can't do anything a classical one can't do).

 

This can be quite a complex topic.... Although it defies the laws of relativity keep in mind relativity is only applicable at certain scales, IE the macro scales. Once you hit micro and sub-micro (quantum) scales relativity doesn't seem to apply at all.

 

relativity still applies, as far as is known, it's just that there hasn't been a successful unification of relativity with quantum theory.

[Redruth]

i don't much trust technology to mundane daily tasks, let alone my consciousness

[Hugh Mughnus]

"The answer seems to be that you cannot predict beforehand which one you will experience."

 

This is the premise for quantum computing isn't it?!?

not really, quantum computers harness qubits (instead of classical bits), which can be in a superposition of states (which potentially could lead to large leaps in efficiency; however a quantum computer can't do anything a classical one can't do).

 

This can be quite a complex topic.... Although it defies the laws of relativity keep in mind relativity is only applicable at certain scales, IE the macro scales. Once you hit micro and sub-micro (quantum) scales relativity doesn't seem to apply at all.

 

relativity still applies, as far as is known, it's just that there hasn't been a successful unification of relativity with quantum theory.

 

Right, superposition refers to particles in whatever form existing simultaneously in every place within a 3 dimensional range. Therefore it is everywhere and collapses into a singularity when accessed at a certain point, thereby making it instantaneous. IE, quantum computing. The idea behind quantum computing is that the result is available to you before you seek the result.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....m_superposition

 

RE the second comment, relativity does not apply when you get into quarks, etc. Gravity has absolutely no bearing on the behaviour of these particles. Also, this is the aim of a "grand unified theory of physics". String theory is quite relevant here.

 

These concepts have a LOT to do with consciousness though many will not make the connections, no geeky physics pun intended.

[lumpenprol]

Neither are "you" in the sense that most people currently perceive to be themselves. That's why people struggle with these debates. You aren't here. There never was any permanent entity there.

 

All that is fundamentally required here is that the illusion of continued self is maintained after the uploading. That's all you have right now, a sense of continuity that keeps the game going.

 

speak for yourself, I'm as rock solid as your abs, or my erection

[Hugh Mughnus]

Neither are "you" in the sense that most people currently perceive to be themselves. That's why people struggle with these debates. You aren't here. There never was any permanent entity there.

 

All that is fundamentally required here is that the illusion of continued self is maintained after the uploading. That's all you have right now, a sense of continuity that keeps the game going.

 

speak for yourself, I'm as rock solid as your abs, or my erection

 

or as my erection

[chaosmachine]

i don't much trust technology to mundane daily tasks, let alone my consciousness

 

 

the blue screen of death...

[Redruth]

heh

[TechDiff]

not immediately no, but eventually I would, no doubt.

 

Without wishing to sound somewhat cliched, the physical aspect of a person is just meat. I have no particular fondness for my body, take no particular pride in it. I appreciate that it functions (to a limited degree) as a way for me to interact with the world around me, but also believe that it is incredibly limiting and that, if free from a physical constraint, a human consciousness could be far more incredible, and capable of so much more.

 

My reservations are that any sort of environment in which such a consciousness would exist, would attempt to be no more than a reproduction of the world we already enjoy. Effectivly stifling the whole idea. It reminds me a little of a line in GITS, the major asks something along the lines of "Will I still be the same?" and the puppet master replies "No, why would you want to be?"

 

I can appreciate it wouldn't be for everyone, but I think, if such a thing was possible, the benefits for some would be incredible. An imagination, no longer constrained by a physical form, no longer subject to illness of debilitating diseases, and no longer subject to oppression based on physical appearance etc.. wouldn't work for everyone no doubt, but for some it'd be amazing.

 

interesting point raised about duplicate consciousnesses, if one person would experience both Simultaniously or if they would both be completely inepdependant. I guess the same question would be applied to clones as well? I've always thought that an important part of defining a consciousness is its responses to the immediate surroundings, not just it's history and so on. In such a case, from the moment a consciousness was duplicated, it would be immediately independent since it would be experiencing its existence from a unique perspective. I guess somewhat similar to the idea of an alternate reality for each possible outcome to a scenario.

[joseph]

Right, superposition refers to particles in whatever form existing simultaneously in every place within a 3 dimensional range. Therefore it is everywhere and collapses into a singularity when accessed at a certain point, thereby making it instantaneous.

 

If it collapsed into a singularity, we'd all be dead. It just assumes a definite state when measured. In any event I don't see the pertinence to mind-uploading, at least at this stage. (It is conceivable that quantum indeterminism arises from the indeterminism of conscious continuations, but that's another matter).

 

RE the second comment, relativity does not apply when you get into quarks, etc. Gravity has absolutely no bearing on the behaviour of these particles. Also, this is the aim of a "grand unified theory of physics". String theory is quite relevant here.

 

Just because modern physics has not worked out how it works, does not mean gravity is not relevant. It demonstrably is. Indeed many cutting-edge efforts try to show how gravity arises from the interaction of (fundamental?) particles.

 

Certainly general relativity will have to be replaced by a theory of quantum gravity. Note that gravity continues to operate regardless.

[Hugh Mughnus]

not immediately no, but eventually I would, no doubt.

 

Without wishing to sound somewhat cliched, the physical aspect of a person is just meat. I have no particular fondness for my body, take no particular pride in it. I appreciate that it functions (to a limited degree) as a way for me to interact with the world around me, but also believe that it is incredibly limiting and that, if free from a physical constraint, a human consciousness could be far more incredible, and capable of so much more.

 

My reservations are that any sort of environment in which such a consciousness would exist, would attempt to be no more than a reproduction of the world we already enjoy. Effectivly stifling the whole idea. It reminds me a little of a line in GITS, the major asks something along the lines of "Will I still be the same?" and the puppet master replies "No, why would you want to be?"

 

I can appreciate it wouldn't be for everyone, but I think, if such a thing was possible, the benefits for some would be incredible. An imagination, no longer constrained by a physical form, no longer subject to illness of debilitating diseases, and no longer subject to oppression based on physical appearance etc.. wouldn't work for everyone no doubt, but for some it'd be amazing.

 

interesting point raised about duplicate consciousnesses, if one person would experience both Simultaniously or if they would both be completely inepdependant. I guess the same question would be applied to clones as well? I've always thought that an important part of defining a consciousness is its responses to the immediate surroundings, not just it's history and so on. In such a case, from the moment a consciousness was duplicated, it would be immediately independent since it would be experiencing its existence from a unique perspective. I guess somewhat similar to the idea of an alternate reality for each possible outcome to a scenario.

 

from my understanding of physics the two consciousness'es would be experienced simultaneously but separately, like you have said.

 

However I only have an intermediate understanding of physics.