north korea is (probably) conducting nuclear tests

[chenGOD]

I want to know who your professor is cause I actually do study North Korea, and so kind of know who's who in the academic world when it comes to it, and what their positions tend to be.

 

The US did not offer to build nuclear reactors, the 1994 Agreed Framework deal specified that South Korea would be the primary providers of the technology and construction material for the Light Water Reactors. The US then failed to live up to their end of the deal, delaying funding. The US then accused the North of having secret facilities for uranium enrichment research, although later inspection of those facilities by IAEA inspectors confirmed that North Korea had in fact suspended all nuclear development from 1994-2002. In 2003 NK withdrew from the NNPT, and announced it had developed weaponized nuclear material.

Why does it surprise you that North Korea would want to have means to defend itself? Having witnessed the US' invasion of Iraq, following the events of September 11, 2001 and being lumped in the "axis of evil" (apparently they were thrown in so that the axis of evil wouldn't only consist of Islamic states), it is hardly surprising that another nation state would take steps to defend its sovereignty.

 

It is true that access to certain areas of the country are off-limits to tourists. However, my colleagues who are over there preparing North Korean university students for international study have said they are free to travel without minders, can take pictures of mostly anything, and get along pretty well with North Koreans for the most part. Of course just like in America, some areas, such as prisons/military bases are off-limits. And yes, they try to appeal to tour groups by taking them to the best places, just like American tour groups don't take you to the ghettos of urban America.

Here's a book that might interest you, written by the former British Ambassador to North Korea:

http://www.amazon.com/Only-Beautiful-Please-British-Diplomat/dp/1931368252

 

 

To set the record straight - I do believe that the government of North Korea serves its own interests ahead of those of the people. I also believe that opening up the country through force would be a total disaster, and the best way to go about the process will be to increase the economic prosperity of the average person, much like what occurred in the South. Once the middle class develops, calls for brutal dictatorship style governance to end will begin in earnest.

 

Oh and re: the crazy part - Dubya claimed to be able to talk with an invisible spirit man who created the world in 7 days, and people believed him...

[chenGOD]

lol see edit.

[Guest Frankie5fingers]

you bring up a good point Chen. and his name is Michael Dunbar

 

i just get a little worked up when it comes to Nuclear weapons and i hate that there are countries that still think that its equals more power. if they simply want to be independent and not have people hate on them then they are doing a horrible job at it. but i still have never heard anything that would convince met that they arent planning something.

 

and dont think im one of those "America is the best and if you say otherwise youre evil" kinda people. in fact i feel that our government is slowly and subtly becoming one of the most evil things on the planet. but thats a discussion for a different time.

[MisterE]

To set the record straight - I do believe that the government of North Korea serves its own interests ahead of those of the people.

ya think? that describes probably every government on the planet, to various degrees. your entire post was devised to downplay just how fucked up NK actually is. what do you think about Stalin's Russia? not so bad either?

[syd syside]

North Korea is hell on earth. Probably the worst place on the planet to live. I'm not sure what military solution can be successful, if any, but its clear something should be done to help the people who are living under the most totalitarian fascist/religious government on the face of the planet.

[Guest zaphod]

someone in north korea is probably playing pilotwings 64 right now, trying to get the gyrocopter to fly to the edge of the map past the ocean and away from that island, crashing every time

[syd syside]

someone in north korea is probably playing pilotwings 64 right now, trying to get the gyrocopter to fly to the edge of the map past the ocean and away from that island, crashing every time

maybe one of the kim jong tossers but no, as far as I know, average person in korea has zero entertainment aside from the once a year field trip to propaganda museums.

[chenGOD]

you bring up a good point Chen. and his name is Michael Dunbar

 

i just get a little worked up when it comes to Nuclear weapons and i hate that there are countries that still think that its equals more power. if they simply want to be independent and not have people hate on them then they are doing a horrible job at it. but i still have never heard anything that would convince met that they arent planning something.

 

and dont think im one of those "America is the best and if you say otherwise youre evil" kinda people. in fact i feel that our government is slowly and subtly becoming one of the most evil things on the planet. but thats a discussion for a different time.

Ok, I don't know him, nor have I read anything by him on North Korea, so I can't begin to guess what his research on North Korea is about.

I want you to think very carefully about what I highlighted, and imagine that you are a North Korean. They would say the exact same thing about America.

I never said anything about your beliefs re: the American government, I merely pointed out that there are similarities in how some aspects of life work, regardless of government or prosperity of the nation.

 

 

To set the record straight - I do believe that the government of North Korea serves its own interests ahead of those of the people.

ya think? that describes probably every government on the planet, to various degrees. your entire post was devised to downplay just how fucked up NK actually is. what do you think about Stalin's Russia? not so bad either?

 

That's a fantastic strawman you have there. Care to add something substantive to the discussion? Anything that shows you might know more about North Korea than what the media tells you? And when a paper as "reputable" as the New York Times gets it this badly wrong...well.

[SR4]

you guys are arguing the shit i basically laid out in the first page. (or maybe the beginning of the 2nd?)

 

 

fucking relax about the moral/ethical escapade. N. Korea is a paper tiger.....they launch anything and they are done....not exactly a smart move for the Kim dynasty OR the military that props them up as figureheads.

[ambermonk]

someone in north korea is probably playing pilotwings 64 right now, trying to get the gyrocopter to fly to the edge of the map past the ocean and away from that island, crashing every time

 

There ought to be a Jetpack mission set in Pyongyang, where the goal is to land atop the apex of the Ryugyong Hotel. And if you fall, you're fucked.

[MisterE]

That's a fantastic strawman you have there. Care to add something substantive to the discussion? Anything that shows you might know more about North Korea than what the media tells you? And when a paper as "reputable" as the New York Times gets it this badly wrong...well.

a strawman is a misrepresentation of another person's position. i said that your comment was downplaying how bad NK is, so i was saying that you don't think they are so bad. now you are basically reasserting that no, they are not so shitty, and media is just trying to make them look shitty. maybe you're right that some media is, for some reason, making them look worse than they are. but i don't see where i deployed any strawman argument, i think i characterized your stance pretty well. you did make some points that yes, a tour in the US would'nt take people through ghettos etc. but from what i've seen it's a *little* more extreme in NK. and by seen i mean i've actually seen people posting pictures from their visit and talking about what it was like. and it didn't really sound so much like a guided tour, as it did an assigned escort.

[chenGOD]

My position is not to downplay the North Korean situation, the comment was made to bring some semblance of rationality to the conversation. Reading posts like compson's or Frankie's which regurgitate some of the worst reporting done on the country really irks me.

 

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but since I know people who work in the country, and have gone in and out numerous times, and they all report that after a few visits, they are able to move pretty freely. The former British Ambassador, whose book I linked in an earlier post, basically said the same thing.

 

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

[MisterE]

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

perfectly legally?

[ambermonk]

My position is not to downplay the North Korean situation, the comment was made to bring some semblance of rationality to the conversation. Reading posts like compson's or Frankie's which regurgitate some of the worst reporting done on the country really irks me.

 

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but since I know people who work in the country, and have gone in and out numerous times, and they all report that after a few visits, they are able to move pretty freely. The former British Ambassador, whose book I linked in an earlier post, basically said the same thing.

 

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

 

Any commentary from people who've actually been there is much more valuable than that from corporate news pundits who are trying to perpetuate panic every time the Kim regime conducts a rocket test.

 

And if what you claim is true about weed, then maybe "totalitarian" isn't an entirely accurate term. When it comes to marijuana liberties, it puts the US to shame for sure, with the recent exception of two states.

[MisterE]

Any commentary from people who've actually been there is much more valuable than that from corporate news pundits who are trying to perpetuate panic every time the Kim regime conducts a rocket test.

 

And if what you claim is true about weed, then maybe "totalitarian" isn't an entirely accurate term. When it comes to marijuana liberties, it puts the US to shame for sure, with the recent exception of two states.

i'm always willing to accept than any of my assumptions may be wrong or based on exaggerated info. but i will disagree with the statement that commentary from a person with direct experience is always more valuable than that of anyone else. it's not always the case 100% of the time. some people lie. yes news/media pundits are constantly hyping stuff up, sensationalizing stories (see the recent US drone 'target' incident), but that doesn't mean i will automatically believe a guy who was 'actually in korea' over anyone else in particular. i'm going to think about anything anyone says to me before i decide on what i think on it. for example, i'm sure there were plenty of people directly under Stalin, in Russia, who would tell you that Stalin Russia was just super.

 

also, the idea of extrapolating the legality of marijuana as an issue to measure which country is more totalitarian is kind of absurd. it might be an interesting fact if they are allowed to toke over there, but on the other hand we have allegations that people are being tortured and killed en masse. maybe those are BS accusations. if they WERE true, i doubt chengods friends were allowed in those areas. and i would much rather not be legally allowed to smoke weed, but just as able to get it as everyone is, than i would be subject to possible torturing and killing for not worshipping Kim. call me batshit insane, but that's just how i feel.

[chenGOD]

 

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

perfectly legally?

 

http://www.nknews.org/2013/01/struggle-is-the-enemy-weed-is-the-remedy-the-truth-about-marijuana-in-north-korea/

[SR4]

My position is not to downplay the North Korean situation, the comment was made to bring some semblance of rationality to the conversation. Reading posts like compson's or Frankie's which regurgitate some of the worst reporting done on the country really irks me.

 

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but since I know people who work in the country, and have gone in and out numerous times, and they all report that after a few visits, they are able to move pretty freely. The former British Ambassador, whose book I linked in an earlier post, basically said the same thing.

 

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

 

im not referring to you

[chenGOD]

i know lol

[Dale]

My position is not to downplay the North Korean situation, the comment was made to bring some semblance of rationality to the conversation. Reading posts like compson's or Frankie's which regurgitate some of the worst reporting done on the country really irks me.

 

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but since I know people who work in the country, and have gone in and out numerous times, and they all report that after a few visits, they are able to move pretty freely. The former British Ambassador, whose book I linked in an earlier post, basically said the same thing.

 

And hey, guess what - in the totalitarian state, you can at least smoke weed.

chen - What are your thoughts on the sketches illustrated by prison camp escapees? Do you think what they illustrated really goes on behind the scenes on a systematic basis? Since you mention you have studied NK, I'm interested to know your take on the anecdotal info supplied by these escapees. What do you think is the best solution to negotiating with NK in order to curb/decrease the alleged torture/unnecessary suffering?

[Guest]

like illustrated in this book:

 

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11797365-escape-from-camp-14

[chenGOD]

the human rights abuses that are depicted are terrible and obviously need to stop. the cold hard truth is that making human rights an issue when negotiating with the north is a non-starter.

my opinion is it is best to continue negotiations on multiple levels (tracks 1,2, and 2a) and deal with human rights issues at the official level after more substantial opening of the country and growth of its economy.

as i said earlier, once the middle class develops then calls for a less brutal governance will gain more widespread support.

[Guest yikes]

this is a prospective war game with NK done in 05.

 

stakes are higher now in some ways and their nuclear tech must have improved since then.

 

it's a gnarly situation from any angle,with 100000 causalities projected in Souel in the first 24 hours.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/07/north-korea-the-war-game/304029/1/

[SR4]

very interesting article, thanks for posting!