writing electronic music with other people

[Lane Visitor]

I tried collaborating with you Matt/kcinsu and your abelton session was so complex and macro-i-fied that I had no fucking idea how to do anything with it! I'd still like to collaborate though, you just somehow have to sink down to my abelton ignorance level. I'm getting way better though, i'm finally comfortable mixing down tracks in it now. Huge step for me. I was idiotically for a while doing the most absurd work around. I would pump 8 stereo tracks from abelton in real time via soundflower into 8 empty stereo tracks in cubase, and mix and finish the song in there.

 

How do you like Cubase, and what version are you on? Been on 4 for a while.. keep getting coerced to do the mac/logic or ableton route, but i always come back home to the good ol cubase lol. im so fast at editing with it, i dont see myself leaving anytime soon.

[awepittance]

well I fucking love Cubase, but i'm beginning to realize just how out of dated it is in many ways compared to Abelton and even Logic, but mostly Abelton.

The things i miss most from Cubase are the scissors tool and the stretch by time/region size tools. In abelton I have to use the keyboard or do a right click menu command to 'split' an audio track into a different region. In cubase I just work super fast switching between the cursor and scissors tool that so far I see no way to have the equivalent speed in Abelton.
Also 'off line' effects in Cubase are still superior to Logic or abelton. To 'print' audio effects on a small region in the arrangement view in Abelton takes twice as long as it does in Cubase, which is annoying.

also still not sure why the routing in Abelton is so child/toy-like. They really want us to resort to return/sends for routing? seriously? It seems very underdeveloped compared to the routing/grouping/bussing in Cubase and Logic. Also is there any fucking way to do post master bus fader processing? In Cubase you can throw an effect in after the fader on the master bus, in abelton it seems impossible.
I still have a lot to learn about abelton but for right now the only thing Cubase really excels at is complicated surgical audio editing. Abelton 9 added enough new midi features to make me not miss Cubase's midi features as much

basically if Cubase implemented all the different time stretching algorithms abelton has and implemented the ease of use of the midi learn from Live, Cubase would be a super beast. Unfortunately it's just fallen way behind. Even all these new effects and instruments they include in the new versions sort of suck. I don't have confidence in Steinberg's limiters or compressors, and i really think the synths they make for Cubase are really shitty and uninspiring.

My perfect program right now would be like Abelton in almost every way with the addition of old school printed non real-time audio effect menu when you right click on a region, more complex routing/bussing, better configuration for mastering (ie: post master bus fader effects). Just in general a greater and more complex focus on audio editing like Protools/Cubase.

I guess in a way I'm very attached to the more old fashioned way of working in a DAW where it's sort of rooted in the destructive editing world. To me Abelton is the antithesis of destructive editing, it's almost a chore to get it to operate in this fashion

edit: sorry didn't answer your question, im on version 7 right now. Basically every upgrade since 4 has been a total waste of time. I can't think of a single new feature they added since then that really has left me impressed or satisfied. In fact the new 7 version has a terrible redesign of the mixing console view, so at the moment i'm mostly still using 5 (the previous version i purchased)

I think Steinberg really went downhill as a company after the release of Cubase SX 3. The sampler they put out made for Cubase, Halion is also pretty excellent. It was pretty much the most fully featured sampler VST around until Kontakt came out, but part of me prefers Halion. It crashes a lot less, seems to take up less CPU and has a smoother and more intuitive interface. After Halion 3 they souped it up gave it a new skin and now its just dumbed down and not as fun to use.
I think the only reason Steinberg is still afloat is they've been bought out I think by Roland(?) and it's one of the only DAW's at the moment besides Protools that has not been cracked on the Mac. Or at least I haven't been able to find a crack for Mac.

[CharlesWatkins]

it isn't the bells and whistles that make cubase good, it's the engine and how the routing is handled that results in a lot more stable of a sound than you would find in ableton which from what i've read is susceptible to all kinds of aliasing and strange behaviors when you start trying to route audio outside of typical usage.

 

there are two things i dont like about cubase and one is that there is no envelope follower, the other being lack of ranges/inverse for generic midi mappings

[Lane Visitor]

John, thanks for the insight.. I've been curious about Cubase-users thoughts on Abelton, and the differences they've experienced. I'll definitely agree, Cubase is excellent for surgical editing and the ability to work on the fly with audio/processing/plug-in management.

 

As far as automation, sampling, midi, yeah, from what I've gathered from friends, Abelton takes the cake. Yeah, it would be really nice if someone would marry the best parts of the two haha.

 

I get pretty jealous/frustrated when I hear producer friends/acquaintances tracks that contain sick loud powerful, but still smooth drum grooves (esp dub-steppy stuff), and the transients are banging and it's as loud as a commercial release, but not abrasive. Then, I ask them wtf did you use for your drums? And they're like "Vengeance Samples" in Abelton. I use Vengeance sometimes but often have trouble getting kicks and snares to sound the way I want them without overcompressing, layering, etc.

 

They also slap shit on the master channel- limiters, etc. Sometimes it sounds really squashed and busy and lifeless, but other times, pretty freakin amazing for a non-professionally mastered track. I don't get it, I guess Abelton is just that good for production. Kinda gets under my skin thinking i may be taking the long route when these kids are coming up on abelton and they make a dubstep track and it almost sounds pro just like that, barely any tweaking lol. Maybe i'll just throw a c3 multiband, and an l2 limiter on all my tracks in cubase, and just limit the fuck out of it haha.

[awepittance]

I still haven't mastered the art of Multiband compression. I feel while I know regular compressors pretty well, more often than not a multiband will sound more lifeless when mastering a track than just a few EQs and compressors doing subtler things all in 1 stack.

Interesting about the Abelton aliasing thing. I still *feel* that cubase has a better summing engine for the actual mixing aspect, but now that I've gotten a better hang of abelton I'm having just as successful results mixing and mastering within it. Its just the routing aspect is still throwing me for a loop since I do a lot of group channel stuff in cubase, like grouping all the drum tracks to limit/compress just those. Also It's pretty essential for me to have 'post'master fader effects, may sound inconsequential to some but once you've gotten used to a mastering routine and workflow its hard to get used to this lack of very important feature.

the nice thing about sharing sessions in Abelton or Logic though is if you stick to just using samples and built in internal instruments, it's extremely easy and effortless to share a set/project back and forth. With Cubase you pretty much have to resort to using mostly VSTs unless you have confidence in the Cubase fx set (which i do not).

that's cool your friends are using sample packs in Abelton, i still find this a huge taboo in my own music making. If i was doing commercial or paid work I'd probably use the shit out of them but I feel pretty dirty when i use samples that i didn't source myself. I'm totally fine stealing one hits from other stuff, but not libraries

[Audioblysk]

I use Live for jamming with my buddy, its a perfect sketch-pad program for working quickly with ideas IMO. I use Reaper and Cubase on occasion because it seems my low quality audio driver doesn't like Live to be recording audio in while looping back things. I always have a lag. Tried adjusting the drivers, went to ASIO4ALL and still have problems with it. Not so much when just recording a single track to a click or something, but when I start building a project and having many things playing, it makes the recordings have an inconsistent drift in and out of time. Does anyone else have this issue with Live?!

 

I recently started using my laptop to sequence loops of beats and live sequenced synths/solo shiz, while jamming with a guitarist and a friend who can rhyme quite well. Its been lovely just being able to have a beat to mess with and synths running while other things go on. its much more easy to just jam simple things than me fucking around with instrumental music and trying to make life out of loops. I love doing them both, but it is cool to interact with humans when making music.... sometimes

[kcinsu]

Dude name the date and I'm there. You're a hard man to get a hold of!

[kcinsu]

That was @john e

[SCONES TO DIE FOR]

I've had good and bad experiences.

 

I jammed a live rig with a friend, syncing our synths and a bunch of gear together and made some Detroit meets early Warp techno jams. Unfortunately he hit money problems and we couldn't get the project rolling.

 

Another guy wanted to collaborate, so I went to his house and he shot down all my ideas. He then recorded me playing some guitar and synths, rolled them up in some generic 2002-style deep house and regretably released it on his janky net label.

 

Unfortunately I live in the middle of nowhere so it's hard finding likeminded people to jam with. I'd still like to though.