α-juno, BCR2000, and ableton

[luke viia]

I've got a simple problem, but I feel like I'm thinking about it wrong.

 

What I'm trying to do:

 

Control the alpha juno parameters with the BCR2000. Sequence the juno in ableton. Change parameters via BCR live while I loop back a sequenced part.

 

Here's what I can get to happen:

 

Sequence the juno in ableton, so long as it's just a direct midi in --> midi out / midi out --> midi in connection with my audio interface (a tascam us-122l, cheap unit). I also have no problem getting the juno and BCR to communicate, so long as it's just those two with the direct midi connection between them. This is where the noob part comes in. I can't figure out how to chain all three of these devices together to get what I want, and it's driving me bananas. I don't mind programming the juno with the alpha dial, but when it comes to jamming live, I want access to more than one parameter at a time for god's sake, and I want this thing sequenced while I do it!

 

 

If this is as simple as I hope it is, could any of you shed some light on it? I've been trying different setups for a few days now and i'm ready to bite the bullet and show how inept I am at this, lol.

 

[BCM]

try:

 

BCR2000 MIDI OUT > ABLETON MIDI IN (VIA USB INTERFACE) > ABLETON MIDI OUT (VIA USB INTRFACE) > ALPHA JUNO MIDI IN

 

as far as i can see it, the way above will allow you to control both the juno and ableton using the BCR2000, so long as you set ableton to receive and send MIDI control info to the MIDI OUT channel. you can still have ableton as the master and use it to sequence etc, but this should allow for the BCR2000 control info to be sent down the chain, through ableton and out to your Juno.

 

i think.

[luke viia]

wow, pretty close, thanks BCM!

 

what i've got now is a juno that can be sequenced, and is sending midi notes through the BCR (i can tell, because there's a light on ). the BCR can successfully learn midi parameters from the juno, but now the only remaining problem is that the juno doesn't respond when I change things on the BCR (after the BCR has learned a parameter). (so it's just not getting the message?)

 

sorry for the noob walkthrough request. this'll be my only one for the year, i swear.

[luke viia]

so my setup is like this:

 

juno midi out --> BCR midi in --> BCR midi out --> usb interface in --> usb interface out --> juno midi in --> juno midi out...

 

 

 

usb interface midi out is the spot that holds the key to my problem as far as i can tell. if it's set to thru, the juno responds to the BCR's learned parameter changes but no midi is recorded when playing the juno (just audio from a 1/4" connection to my audio interface) and recorded midi loops don't play back. if the midi out on the usb interface is not set to thru, the juno sequences and plays back just fine, but changes made on the BCR don't affect the sound.

 

 

so close

[Guest volg4]

i would use BCR>>PC>>juno

 

2 outs... (unless you want to use the juno keyboard for midi input?)

 

then, in ableton, new blank song

make 2 midi tracks

 

midi1 = input from BCR, output to juno - this track set to record monitor - sends BCR data to the juno

 

midi2 = no input, output to juno - this is where you program your loops

 

its been a while since i've used ableton

not sure if it works with midi system exclusive and NRPN stuff (is that how the juno communicates?) and i've only used notes and midi cc's thru this method... and mostly in cubase

 

also, if you wanted to use the juno keyboard as a controller, you'd setup a 3rd midi channel with input from juno and output to anywhere else you have connected... (;

[luke viia]

thanks volg -- I'm attempting your strategy here and unfortunately the best luck I'm getting is what I described above... that the thru switch decides between BCR-Juno communication and Juno-PC communication. It almost seems like the Juno just needs another input.

 

I'm using a midisport 2x2 box for my usb/PC interface, for what it's worth:

 

 

 

 

This ^ is as opposed to using my tascam us-122l midi/audio interface, which only has one midi in, and one midi out. Either one works identically as a signal source in ableton (i'm pretty sure).

 

The setup I have isn't terrible, but I'd really like to be able to fully command the parameters when the midi sequence is playing back to me from Ableton... but still no success. Since the Juno only has one input, when it gets messages from the Midisport, it isn't getting messages from the BCR... since the BCR's midi input is connected to the Juno's out, which allows the BCR to listen to/learn parameter changes on the Juno) and the BCR's thru output is going to the Midisport...the BCR's regular output can't get to the Juno at the same time as the Midisport output, yeah? That's the thought I kept coming back to yesterday anyway. I could be totally wrong, that would be nice. That single Juno input is messing with my mind... there must be a simple way out of this.

 

At any rate, I have been able to sequence the Juno and do some minimal on-the-fly automation, since changing parameters directly from the Juno still works when the midi is being sequenced back to me. Yesterday's cheesy test songs below:

 

http://www.sharptoothrex.com/vgjunotest.mp3

 

http://www.sharptoothrex.com/funky_juno_jam_take_2.mp3

 

 

[luke viia]

oops, forgot: yeah I think the Juno sends out SysEx messages. Maybe for the next attempt I should follow this guide I just found ( http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/sysex.php). Oh, SysEx. "Simply create a Controller that will send MIDI System Exclusive Messages to your Juno and use the following codes to create controllers for the parameters you want to control." New noob question - can anybody shed some light on how to 'simply create a controller' in ableton?

 

I should probably buy a pizza for whoever solves this problem, lol. Thanks for your help so far dudes, it really is much appreciated.

[SCONES TO DIE FOR]

This thread is kind of confusing to me, but have you thought of using a midi merger box?

 

 

This is what I use with my Alpha Juno and BCR-2000 to combine midi signals.

 

I tweak away on whatever parameters I want while the sequence is running.

[luke viia]

This thread is confusing to me too. And thanks - a midi merger does seem like a good option (hadn't really thought of that, no, was maybe too stuck on the idea of using what I've already got). You run both the BCR and Juno outs into separate midi ins on the box, then out into the PC?

 

From what I understand, Reaper accepts SysEx messages so I could just run the Juno right into it and go from there, with a little bit of programming), and I've been wanting to check that program out for some time anyway -- will probably give it a go in the next few days and see if I can get any closer to my goals that way. I wouldn't have the BCR chained to the juno in that setup, but that's OK, I like using it as a VST controller just as well

[SCONES TO DIE FOR]

You can use the midi merger to get the synth to receive midi from your computer and the BCR2000. That's what I do.

 

You might need a midi router to send the synths midi data to the BCR2000 and duplicate data to your PC. I don't do this since I don't really want/need to record the sysex data - I just record audio while I'm tweaking the parameters.

[luke viia]

Ah, that makes sense. I might end up picking one of those up if my other attempts totally fail. Thanks for the tip.

 

I'd like the SysEx data (micro-tweaking is a lot of fun...) but I'm not really bent on it. At the moment I do things close to the way you do, recording a part to audio and tweaking parameters as it goes... but right now my only weapon for sequenced playback tweaking is the alpha dial.

[BCM]

I use a MIDI splitter box for my set up - Kenton MIDI Thru-5... Very useful, takes the MIDI output from my DAW and replicates it out to 5 separate outputs. Think it was about £45.

[Guest volg4]

hey, don't think ableton works with sysex...

could you try recording some sysex into it from the juno and see if it plays back to the juno?

or try another sequencer? could be your problem

 

bcr midi out > usb midi in 1

bcr midi in < usb midi out1

 

juno midi out > usb midi in2

juno midi in < usb midi out 2

 

then use ableton as your midi thru box

 

make 3 midi tracks, setup as follows

 

track 1 gets input from bcr (usb midi1) and goes to juno (usb midi2) - tweaks

track 2 gets no input and goes to juno (usb midi 2) - notes

track 3 gets input from juno (usb midi2) and goes to bcr (usb midi in1) - lets bcr learn parameters

 

 

[luke viia]

Problem solved! I went ahead about bought a midi merger. The exact same Midisport unit I already had, actually, just the updated "Anniversary" version. The only thing my old version couldn't do was merging midi, lol. What a kick in the nuts.

 

Thank you sincerely for all your help and effort, watmm people. Now it's time for me to finally live out my dream.

[BCM]

glad you got it sorted!

[SCONES TO DIE FOR]

So where's my pizza?

[LimpyLoo]

This thread is kind of confusing to me, but have you thought of using a midi merger box?

 

 

This is what I use with my Alpha Juno and BCR-2000 to combine midi signals.

 

I tweak away on whatever parameters I want while the sequence is running.

 

Does the red light indicate whether it was indeed made in Canada or not?

[Guest khrimson]

you could have accomplished that without additional hardware via a CTRLR vst, infact that's what I do

[luke viia]

you could have accomplished that without additional hardware via a CTRLR vst, infact that's what I do

 

with the alpha juno in ableton?

 

Would you walk me through your steps?

 

@scones: pm me your address and favorite pizza place :D

[Guest khrimson]

I don't use Ableton but it should be the same in every DAW, if you have a PC download this (it's a win32 alphajuno CTRLR v3 .dll, I prefer this over the more recent v5 panels) and import it as you would do for another VST.

 

You can automate the vst knobs linking them to the BCR and it will send sysex trough your midi OUT parameters along midi notes. Flag "midithru" and "use VST output" in the VST options and set Midi Exlcusive ON on the Juno

 

Hope it helps

 

[luke viia]

thanks for the dll link! I've tried to use CTRLR for this purpose a while ago and didn't have much luck (I think because like volg mentioned, ableton filters out sysex data)... but if the merger box setup ever fails me, this will be a good alternative. cheers man.

[luke viia]

Update:

For some reason I decided to give Ctrlr a second try last night -- had been poking around their forums and found a good bit of advice for getting things set up in Live and getting around Live's sysex allergy (thx from afar, Llamatron!)... and I have to say that this is friggin' wonderful. I'm using the PG-300 panel, not the one shown above (which downloads as a .dll, not .bpanelz?)... but they both appear to do the same job. Much appreciated khrimson!

Where my old setup had the BCR pretty much exclusively listening to the Juno, now the Ctrlr vst is in charge. The BCR can learn parameters straight from Ctrlr, which was extremely easy to set up (after a little toying around with vst indexes in Ctrlr last night). The BCR is also now able to control any fx vst's I have going as well, so I've got my Juno filter being controlled with knobs to control my delays just inches away. Everything sequences beautifully into Ableton, even the parameter changes, and that back-to-arrangement button is actually behaving itself again. Maschine is running quietly alongside everything in the background, and I've got touchOSC coming in wirelessly if I ever run out of knobs on the BCR or want to give an extra midi controller to a friend while we jam.

Flawless victory.

Thank you to everyone who posted in this thread!