Obama Admin. admits to surveillance methods: Beating a Dead Horse Pt. 74

[delet...]

Politicians are just people...how many people do you know acting in the name of the greater good? Don't hold politicians to higher standards than you do for other people. Even though they might be more responsible. It's the voters responsible for voting for them. (Although in the us system, this works slightly different..)

 

They are not just regular people, they have firstly entered the political process which itself involved a certain character. Then the climb to the top of the organisation acted like a filter to find the worst most narcissistic least reliable and trustworthy sycophantic sociopaths. Now this would perhaps be ok if they still had to think of the will of their electorate when deciding on policy, but it seems with the power of business interests in politics nowadays and the lack of a true media that even this has eroded and possibility that these people's actions maybe somewhat of the sensible sort.

[goDel]

Good to see generalising still works wonders. So you don't know any examples showing you otherwise? Or there aren't enough?

 

Pretty simplistic world view you got yourself going there. I can assure you that it takes more to be a politician than to be the most unreliable and untrustworthy sociopath. And next it's the money and/or the media to blame.

 

Well, I'm going to be the shithead telling you, you're the media you're watching. If you see the wrong media, you should be looking elsewhere.

 

Here's a free tip:

http://www.publicintegrity.org

[delet...]

Good to see generalising still works wonders. So you don't know any examples showing you otherwise? Or there aren't enough?

 

Pretty simplistic world view you got yourself going there. I can assure you that it takes more to be a politician than to be the most unreliable and untrustworthy sociopath. And next it's the money and/or the media to blame.

 

Well, I'm going to be the shithead telling you, you're the media you're watching. If you see the wrong media, you should be looking elsewhere.

 

Here's a free tip:

http://www.publicintegrity.org

 

 

You calling them all normal people is generalizing as well my friend, i was waiting for you to give up arguing and start name calling. So if that's the lie of the land for this thing lets just agree that you are more optimistic(about this particular matter) and that i am less so. I do believe though that the current politicians we have pretty wholeheartedly prove me right with no exceptions.

 

As for the media, people watch what it's easy to find, they don't think too hard about it. The people are part of the problem yes. Also, the lack of participation in local parties means the selection base is so small from which we draw the people that lead us in government, so the losers get through because they don't have to put themselves up against anyone decent and there's no one there anyway, to deny them the opportunity, screening them out as unviable in the face of better candidates. So yes it's a topic that we could get more complex about but i deny that my speaking in general terms about it is any less valid. It's like me saying "the sky is blue." and then getting told off for not explaining the physics behind it. annoying

 

/cheers

[azatoth]

GoDel, you seem to be of the more optimistic disposition with regards to the current situation. Could you please let a pessimistic cynic like myself see what you see that makes you think that things aren't as bad as they seem and that the current ways politics are done by the major global players will ultimately fix itself and we'll all be fine. Thanks.

[goDel]

@aza: things ultimately fixing itself? see, it starts with realistic expectations. if you expect things to ultimately fix themselves, i can't help you cure yourself from cynicism. is it realistic for things to change overnight? of course not. do bad things happen? of course they do. do good things happen? sure, why not? just like in real life. stick to focussing on the negatives, and you'll be cynical for the rest of your days.

 

@delet: calling people normal generalising as well? is that the best you have? after you called politicians innate sociopaths by default? calling them normal people is equally generalising? really? i never said all politicians were normal people, btw. but it's obvious you'd need that to make a point. so have a go at it. it's all fine.

i'll just stick to repeating my opinion again: politicians are just people. some are fruitbags. some aren't. some have ideals. some don't. some try to do good, but don't. some don't try to do good, but do. most of them just try to do their best to whatever level their abilities/circumstances allow them to do. i really don't see what's so special about politicians, compared to normal people you could meet in everyday life.

[azatoth]

I am starting to think that the democratic way isn't going to be enough to start steering this ship right.

[goDel]

?

 

democratic way?

 

not enough to start steering this ship right?

 

what do you mean? do you really think a country has one captain who's able to steer a ship right? if anything, a country is usually like an oil-tanker. it takes years to get a ship on a different course. even if there was one captain. which there aren't.

 

only wars and natural disasters could change that.

[SR4]

I think there are some optimistic horizons, but caused by demographic shifts rather than gov't representatives. It's pretty likely that the Tea Party is going to implode sooner or later, putting the Republican party back quite a ways in political clout. Thus you have an increasingly dominant Dem. party, but the real question is whether Dem. voters are actually going to take advantage of this time-frame to demand a new healthcare system and repeal of over-encroaching surveillance/torture policies.

[goDel]

i'm all for the survaillance thing, but demanding a new healthcare system at this point in time is not what i'd call realistic in any microbe of a sense. apart from the impossibility of implementing a new system without the current one even being finalised, is the thing that it's way too soon to throw the current baby out of the window. there just is no perfect solution. the current one might actually be a good one. regardless of the imperfections.

[SR4]

Not demanding at "this point in time", but in the future where there would be far less Republican resistance to anything bearing the word healthcare in it.

[azatoth]

Just have to hope that the Dems will have the balls to take advantage of the GOP disorganization.

[goDel]

Just have to hope that the Dems will have the balls to take advantage of the GOP disorganization.

 

on a positive note: they had the balls to stick to their principles during this shutdown.

 

right? RIGHT?

 

 

* high fiving the air...*

[azatoth]

Yay!

[SR4]

Couple o' articles...NSA surveillance on French citizens and European leaders.

 

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131021/us-snooped-on-70-million-phone-calls-in-france

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/25/europe-erupts-nsa-spying-chief-government

[lumpenprol]

I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of these behind-the-scenes calls between the Obama admin and their Euro counterparts.

 

I'm guessing it's something along the lines of:

 

 

 

• [on the phone with the Russian Premier] Hello? Uh, hello? Hello, Dmitri? Listen, I can't hear too well, do you suppose you could turn the music down just a little? A-ha, that's much better. Yeah, yes. Fine, I can hear you now, Dmitri. Clear and plain and coming through fine. I'm coming through fine too, eh? Good, then. Well then, as you say, we're both coming through fine. Good. Well, it's good that you're fine, and - and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. [Laughs] Now then, Dmitri, you know how we've always talked about the possibility of something going wrong with the bomb. The BOMB, Dmitri. The hydrogen bomb. Well now, what happened is, uh, one of our base commanders, he had a sort of - Well, he went a little funny in the head. You know. Just a little funny. And uh, he went and did a silly thing.

  Well, I'll tell you what he did. He ordered his planes...to attack your country.

  Well, let me finish, Dmitri. Let me finish, Dmitri. Well, listen, how do you think I feel about it? Can you imagine how I feel about it, Dmitri? Why do you think I'm calling you? Just to say hello?

  Of course I like to speak to you! Of course I like to say hello! Not now, but any time, Dmitri. I'm just calling up to tell you something terrible has happened.

  It's a friendly call. Of course, it's a friendly call. Listen, if it wasn't friendly, you probably wouldn't have even got it. They will not reach their targets for at least another hour. I am, I am positive, Dmitri. Listen, I've been all over this with your Ambassador. It is not a trick. Well, I'll tell you. We'd like to give your Air Staff a complete rundown on the targets, the flight plans, and the defensive systems of the planes.

  Yes, I mean, if-if we're unable to recall the planes, then, I'd say that, uh, well, uh, we're just gonna have to help you destroy them, Dmitri. I know they're our boys. All right, well listen, now, who should we call? Who should we call, Dmitri? The what, the People, you, sorry, you faded away there. The People's Central Air Defense Headquarters. Where is that, Dmitri? In Omsk. Right. Yes. Oh, you'll call them first, will you? Uh, huh. Listen, do you happen to have the phone number on you, Dmitri? What? I see. Just ask for Omsk information.

  I'm sorry too, Dmitri. I'm very sorry. All right, you're sorrier than I am. But I am sorry as well. I am as sorry as you are, Dmitri. Don't say that you're the more sorry than I am because I am capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, all right? All right.

[SR4]

lol

[goDel]

Time to watch

[usagi]

Of course it's a friendly call. Listen, if it wasn't friendly, you probably wouldn't even have got it.

[Plarkreluke Banloboh]

lols

[azatoth]

[goDel]

Lol

 

Aza, are you sure you're promoting German humor? It should have been a contradictio in terminis. Wait, what?

[SR4]

I was Skyping with my friend in Berlin this morning who was born and raised East Berlin. His headphone jack was failing so he unplugged his laptop and I joked "who cares, let the Stasi listen" and he snapped back immediately, "you mean the NSA?" You know things have changed when a Communist-raised East German can legitimately rip on an American regarding civilian surveillance.

 

seriously. the cognitive dissonance of the American people on this one is fucking mind-boggling.

[Adieu]

I love the line, "Well, its been going on like this a long time." Also, I actually care a lot more about the end of the war on drugs, living wages, an end to super PACS and political lobbying than I initially care about healthcare and nsa spying. I think the healthcare issue really could be solved without having some sort of government run program.

[SR4]

I love the line, "Well, its been going on like this a long time." Also, I actually care a lot more about the end of the war on drugs, living wages, an end to super PACS and political lobbying than I initially care about healthcare and nsa spying. I think the healthcare issue really could be solved without having some sort of government run program.

 

 

healthcare dilemmas affect living wages, whether its the business docking pay or cutting corners in order to pay for a program, or the worker not being able to afford ANY decent healthcare with 3 part time jobs. its more systemic at this point, not exactly easy to separate one from the other.

[goDel]

Don't know where to start but healthcare (and education) is one of the most important things government has to be involved with. I could give an endless lecture of why that is, but do you really need to know?