thehauntingsoul Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Entertainment is a very interesting thing, because although most human emotions, thoughts etc can be explained to some degree though collections of facts and accounts, the concepts of comedy, entertainment, and thrill seem much less intuitive. I think I know what one of the basic underlying premises of being entertained would entail: Being Surprised. Think about it, just about every art medium at least partially relies on this as a means to incur that emotion we would all call "being entertained" Movies (and books): All of the genres rely on the act of surprising the viewer to get the intended results. Horror being the most obvious example and requiring no further explanation. Action films are the same thing, a good action film keeps you on the edge of your seat because you don't know what is going to happen. Comedy, well, the entire premise behind comedy is to surprise someone. The whole reason something is funny is that something else was expected instead, or something otherwise unexpected occurred. Romance and shit, well I can't really break that down because I hate romance flicks but yeah, I'm certain the element of surprise plays a big part here Music: I think the element of surprise is key here. More broadly, the whole idea of creating something unique and different that distinguishes itself from the rest and is not predictable. I mean, the only way for music to not contain the element of surprise would be if it was an exact copy of something else. I think that's really what draws us all to electronic music and IDM more specifically. We (and I know some may disagree) all put on a new electronic album hoping to hear something really exciting, unique and surprising. Obviously this can be taken to the extreme, as with Vsnares, and the end result can sound jarring to some, but again it all comes down to the element of surprise. The same would go for any other art form. Drama, dance, anything. Even think about live performances. If someone juggles flaming sticks, it is entertaining because you are surprised that this individual is capable of performing this act. One final supporting point I have is that the one characteristic that will COMPLETELY kill the entertainment value of a form of media is if it is PREDICTABLE. Clearly predictability is the opposite of surprise, and any lack of surprise in some form of entertainment will ultimately result in the loss of the intended entertainment value. Obviously there are other factors involved as well but personally I think this is the key element that any entertainment form relies on. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IRARI Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 i respect that you worked hard on this but i don't wanna think about it i just want to enjoy it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehauntingsoul Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaarg Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Entertainment is a very interesting thing, because although most human emotions, thoughts etc can be explained to some degree though collections of facts and accounts, the concepts of comedy, entertainment, and thrill seem much less intuitive. I think I know what one of the basic underlying premises of being entertained would entail: Being Surprised. Think about it, just about every art medium at least partially relies on this as a means to incur that emotion we would all call "being entertained" Movies (and books): All of the genres rely on the act of surprising the viewer to get the intended results. Horror being the most obvious example and requiring no further explanation. Action films are the same thing, a good action film keeps you on the edge of your seat because you don't know what is going to happen. Comedy, well, the entire premise behind comedy is to surprise someone. The whole reason something is funny is that something else was expected instead, or something otherwise unexpected occurred. Romance and shit, well I can't really break that down because I hate romance flicks but yeah, I'm certain the element of surprise plays a big part here Music: I think the element of surprise is key here. More broadly, the whole idea of creating something unique and different that distinguishes itself from the rest and is not predictable. I mean, the only way for music to not contain the element of surprise would be if it was an exact copy of something else. I think that's really what draws us all to electronic music and IDM more specifically. We (and I know some may disagree) all put on a new electronic album hoping to hear something really exciting, unique and surprising. Obviously this can be taken to the extreme, as with Vsnares, and the end result can sound jarring to some, but again it all comes down to the element of surprise. The same would go for any other art form. Drama, dance, anything. Even think about live performances. If someone juggles flaming sticks, it is entertaining because you are surprised that this individual is capable of performing this act. One final supporting point I have is that the one characteristic that will COMPLETELY kill the entertainment value of a form of media is if it is PREDICTABLE. Clearly predictability is the opposite of surprise, and any lack of surprise in some form of entertainment will ultimately result in the loss of the intended entertainment value. Obviously there are other factors involved as well but personally I think this is the key element that any entertainment form relies on. Thoughts? Amazing, I've been thinking about the same thing in the same way as you a few months ago. Yes, surprise is a major factor here, however it still kinda works when you already know the joke or the joker and you can still be amused. I believe the character or attitude must be unique enough and well put and it works to entertain us. With venetian snares I think he does surprise, however these last years everybody alerady knew in what way his music is going to be "surprising". I think most releases form RDJ still do that better, as they can be quite imprehencible after so man listenings. And again its the attitude and character (ok, and talent). I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. Lol this too. I think it's two days ago I had a debate with Kokoon and his bro and I stated as so many times before how I enjoy things on a deeper level only after putting so much thought and effort into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehauntingsoul Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Yeah I have some friends who hate when I analyze things and break things down, and will generally say something along the lines of "Don't think so hard, just shut up and enjoy it" in whatever context that may be. I've never understood people like this. I don't get why you would be satisfied with ignorance when the very nature of knowledge is that the more you know the more you can know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mohamed Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Yeah I have some friends who hate when I analyze things and break things down, and will generally say something along the lines of "Don't think so hard, just shut up and enjoy it" in whatever context that may be. I've never understood people like this. I don't get why you would be satisfied with ignorance when the very nature of knowledge is that the more you know the more you can know. maybe they accomplished the fun in the run rather than in the knowledge itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 277: 930-933 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Read David Foster Wallace's essay on entertainment, it's in A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehauntingsoul Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 is that a thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somebloke Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I would say two things - firstly, it may be that the reason it is hard to pin down is that 'entertainment' is not clearly defined, and secondly, that the reason it may be tough to describe the cause for our being entertained comes from the fact that the physiological cause for it (whatever it is) may not lead to any single, discrete, psychological 'symptom' (ie. surprise). It may simply be a tag applied to a grey area of sensations, experiences and whatnot. Note also that putting entertainment down to a desire for surprise neglects repeated viewing of movies, repeated listening to CDs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
encey Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 In the Poetics, Aristotle says some things about tragedy (which we can generalize to drama and maybe 'entertainment' in general) that are difficult to reconcile: First, he says that one of the main reasons we enjoy tragedy is because we learn something from watching it, and learning is pleasant. But second, he says that what we learn in particular is that there is a kind of necessary connection among particular kinds of circumstances and character traits, on the one hand, and actions and their consequences, on the other hand (e.g., a person of this sort in these sorts of circumstances will tend to do this sort of thing and so bring these sorts of consequences upon himself). But finally, he also says that another thing we enjoy from tragedy is the catharsis (or 'purging'? no one knows exactly how to understand this term) of the emotions of pity and fear that the action inspires in us, and that those emotions are connected to a sense of apprehension or anxiety we feel as we watch the action unfold. The difficulty here is this: If we feel anxious or apprehensive in watching the action unfold, this can only be because we have some sense of the necessary consequences that are impending upon the tragic character. To put the point generally: if, given A, I expect B, this must be because I already know that A implies B (or tends to lead to it, or whatever). But then we already know the 'necessary connection' or general truth that we are supposed to delight from learning when we watch the drama -- so we wouldn't, then, be learning anything new, after all. On the other hand, if we didn't know about the necessary connection beforehand, that might explain why we feel anxious or apprehensive, but then why conclude that from seeing this new (to us) connection of circumstances, character and events, we come to learn something 'universally' or generally true? It's hard to see in this case, too, how we would come to the specific kind of knowledge that Aristotle says is the basis for the pleasure we take in watching tragedy. Your remarks on being surprised reminded me of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehauntingsoul Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Note also that putting entertainment down to a desire for surprise neglects repeated viewing of movies, repeated listening to CDs, etc. Yes this is something I didn't take into account, although I could account for it now. It takes some time to learn it all off by heart and even if you remember the line of words (film) or music after it happens, you generally can't memorize everything the first time. This would also explain how music gets overplayed and then it becomes unenjoyable. Still you are correct about my description missing something. Also encey thats an interesting post, Learning definitely has alot to do with it but I think it could fall under the category of surprise since it is specifically concerned with obtaining new knowledge that wasn't there before. I don't mean surprise like "OH!!!" surprise, just addition of new content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
encey Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Yeah, it's that surprise-learning connection that I saw in the Poetics puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chax Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I believe entertainment isn't just about being surprised, but is also includes some kind of satisfaction or enjoyment about learning something new or discovering new experiences through music, movies, books etc. Curiosity is extremely important in both human and animal survival and occurs at all ages. Extremely curious people become scientists, doctors, etc. Entertainment is enjoyable so that we can think back and reflect on these entertaining experiences either for survival or to function day to day and use what we learned to further enhance our lives. Curiosity, discovering something, rediscovering something etc. somehow makes you feel good, which is important in human evolution. So this is what philosophy students do all day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaosmachine Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Entertainment doesn't have to be surprising. Surprises are just one aspect of entertainment. What about nostalgia? People watch the same movies every Christmas, for example. People still play old video games for entertainment. There's very few surprises to be found in Tetris. You might listen to your favorite album hundreds of times over the years. The material retains its value long after the surprise has worn off. I think the key element of entertainment is distraction (or escapism, if you want). Good entertainment can distract you from whatever harsh realities you might be facing. That's why TV and movies do better in a recession. People aren't looking to be surprised so much as they're looking to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coalbucket PI Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I don't think surprise is as important as that. Why do people listen to the same albums over and over again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blanket Fort Collapse Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. except when it comes to the meat industry, you think doing research on hot dogs and ground beef would make someone enjoy them more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaarg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. except when it comes to the meat industry, you think doing research on hot dogs and ground beef would make someone enjoy them more? Researching that subject would make one try for better foods, dumbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blanket Fort Collapse Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. except when it comes to the meat industry, you think doing research on hot dogs and ground beef would make someone enjoy them more? Researching that subject would make one try for better foods, dumbass. woh woh woh that hurts... I think you underestimate the power and frequency of stupidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaarg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. except when it comes to the meat industry, you think doing research on hot dogs and ground beef would make someone enjoy them more? Researching that subject would make one try for better foods, dumbass. woh woh woh that hurts... I think you underestimate the power and frequency of stupidity Mhmm, but we are talking about exploring stuff and stupid people don't do that, right? They just learn a bit, so that they manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blanket Fort Collapse Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. except when it comes to the meat industry, you think doing research on hot dogs and ground beef would make someone enjoy them more? Researching that subject would make one try for better foods, dumbass. woh woh woh that hurts... I think you underestimate the power and frequency of stupidity Mhmm, but we are talking about exploring stuff and stupid people don't do that, right? They just learn a bit, so that they manage. all my point was is that obviously some things are definitely better off left without deep investigation. And yes there are many people who have looked into the disgusting nature of commercial ground beef for instance and then shamefully couldn't resist being dumb and eating a hamburger from jack in the box a few nights later. No one is too smart to be dumb sometimes. I have no ambition to properly clarify myself any deeper than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvatorin Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 has anyone here ever thought that tv shows were like buildings and commercials were streets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehauntingsoul Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 MGF definitely hit the nail on the head there, that's true music is all about repetition for sure. I'm kinda hungover though and can't think of much else to contribute to that point at this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mohamed Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 hauntingsoul I can practically smell the bong water after reading this thread lol nonetheless it was interesting and was a welcome change from all the poop and sex threads. I pretty much agree with you but I think repetition is still a key element in music. Hell even when you break things down into pure sine waves, we like hearing tones because they are a repetition of a cycle. We like hearing octaves of tones because when layered on top of each other they sync up and the cycle repeats itself perfectly and frequently, dissonant sounds are the ones that do not go together and repeat their cycles not as often as more consonance sounds. so basically I think that has to be taken into account, in the same way that music that is too "random" just gets jarring and generally unpleasant. to put this on a micro scale, pure randomness in sine waves creates white noise (correct me if I'm wrong) which is ultimately rather unpleasant to listen to. yes great post man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokoon Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 has anyone here ever thought that tv shows were like buildings and commercials were streets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I think a comprehensive understanding of anything leads to a much deeper appreciation for that thing. Really? Seems to me that every philosopher who thinks too much about something ends up extremely depressed. A guy I once knew couldn't stop overthinking everything and he ended up going to a psychic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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