Going all philosophical

[Guest joshier]

This has been on my mind recently.

 

We know that for creatures to survive they must be able to integrate their selves within the environment they live in. Tress die, their matter is reusable. An ecosystem.

 

For a species to thrive, they must also follow this process of take and give back. For, if a species all but gives - they are doomed because the resources that they use are depleted.

 

This leads me to believe that, if any species or living entity is able to thrive, they must also give back, to cooperate with their surroundings. Much like the recent discovery where wasps who "cheat" are then punished by the food source that they take from (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100114143513.htm).

 

So, further down the road we have the spontaneous happenings of intelligent beings, beings so intelligent that they are able to see the overview of life (which we are able to do). If we are that intelligent, we will be able to give back and realise our roots from which have enabled us to thrive - the giving back and cooperating. If we all die or do not evolve well then it shows we were not intelligent after all.

 

But consider this, perhaps at some point in another time or place, a similar creature evolves, they are given the same conditions - to thrive and populate and deplete resources, or to realise, understand and cooperate. These beings (if it is so) happen to cooperate, understand and learn. Their underpinnings of evolution fixed upon giving back. Logically then, these creatures will explore with peace and harmony as they happened to make the right choices. These would then explore and visit (if certain they're safe) would be the "aliens"; the beings with most wisdom and harmony.

 

To me, this is why I reason that creatures exploring the universe will be inherently peaceful, because to survive - they would have had to have their 'give-take back' behaviour ingrained in their "genes".

 

I can also expand this on our own times - 10,000 years down the line, perhaps even further, we will see certain traits and human behaviours shape society. What happens if the trait of gluttony is expressed? will these humans and this trait survive? They cannot, they will be stamped out by the fact that it's unhealthy and thus eventually lead to less and less reproduction.

 

The way I see it, evolution is a slow and extremely refined process that cancels out all but the most environmentally adapt, the most intelligent/wise beings that can over come any hurdles. Random aggression will not be a part of this as it is detrimental to the wider picture, as each single plant or other species can prove useful. By studying other species the path to exploration and understanding is able to be sped up, for example, a birds wings, a cats foot - these are all things an intelligent being would learn from as evolution has moulded it to work in reality.

 

Creatures are able to live in this ecosystem, sharks eat and give back but they do not thrive for a deeper understanding. A bird is adapt and intelligent in most cases but again they do not thrive for knowledge. One of the interesting aspects to look at is why apes evolved for higher intelligence. I have read that cooking was one of the factors. Perhaps a bird could learn this, but which ever way this happens - at some point I expect, a species with the ability to adapt AND to expand knowledge will be inherently peaceful and harmonious.

[dr lopez]

[Guest Masonic Boom]

Human beings are a mistake, an evolutionary dead end, as we no longer evolve to fit our environment, but attempt (futilely) to adapt our environment to us.

 

The Gaia super-organism will auto-correct sooner or later to be rid of us. This is probably for the best.

[Guest Rambo]

explain double guitars then if you all know so much

[Guest IRARI]

tl;dr but i like your "a joshier thread" qualification

[skotosa]

We keep traits that allow us to survive. Unfortunately not all those traits which allow us to surive are good ones.

 

Jealousy for example is trait which still lives with in us. Why? Because those with jealousy have survived longer than those with out.

 

You make a good point as to why Aliens would be peaceful and that if Man Kind is to survive we will need to work together (I believe that) but even if there are aliens and they are peaceful don't expect them to visit us.

 

When you look at an Ants, do you offer them technology? No, your most likely to step on some. The ratio of Human to Ant is like that of Advance Alien Race to Human. We are selfish in thinking they should take time out of there busy life to come visit us and have them try to explain to us their advance technology, like a human trying to teach an ant what a highway is.

[Guest Rambo]

the silence is deafening

[Ego]

Posting in a Joshier thread.

 

You might see aggression or gluttony as something that hurts humanity. But those traits don't affect the ability to reproduce. And because the developed parts of the world removed most threats to humanity, natural selection is now extremely limited.

 

Hawkin said once "We are more than just our genes." We are able to thrive because we pass our knowledge and society to the next generation. Not because our DNA is getting more and more advanced. We're just lucky we got a big brain.

[Guest joshier]

Ego

Yeah I read his quote before it's interesting way of looking at it for sure but I do wonder about the fragility of stored knowledge. Even now we don't have any medium in which is really any better than what the Egyptians did with their fuck off pyramids and scriptures.

[Squee]

This has been on my mind recently.

 

We know that for creatures to survive they must be able to integrate their selves within the environment they live in. Tress die, their matter is reusable. An ecosystem.

 

For a species to thrive, they must also follow this process of take and give back. For, if a species all but gives - they are doomed because the resources that they use are depleted.

 

This leads me to believe that, if any species or living entity is able to thrive, they must also give back, to cooperate with their surroundings. Much like the recent discovery where wasps who "cheat" are then punished by the food source that they take from (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100114143513.htm).

 

So, further down the road we have the spontaneous happenings of intelligent beings, beings so intelligent that they are able to see the overview of life (which we are able to do). If we are that intelligent, we will be able to give back and realise our roots from which have enabled us to thrive - the giving back and cooperating. If we all die or do not evolve well then it shows we were not intelligent after all.

 

But consider this, perhaps at some point in another time or place, a similar creature evolves, they are given the same conditions - to thrive and populate and deplete resources, or to realise, understand and cooperate. These beings (if it is so) happen to cooperate, understand and learn. Their underpinnings of evolution fixed upon giving back. Logically then, these creatures will explore with peace and harmony as they happened to make the right choices. These would then explore and visit (if certain they're safe) would be the "aliens"; the beings with most wisdom and harmony.

 

To me, this is why I reason that creatures exploring the universe will be inherently peaceful, because to survive - they would have had to have their 'give-take back' behaviour ingrained in their "genes".

 

I can also expand this on our own times - 10,000 years down the line, perhaps even further, we will see certain traits and human behaviours shape society. What happens if the trait of gluttony is expressed? will these humans and this trait survive? They cannot, they will be stamped out by the fact that it's unhealthy and thus eventually lead to less and less reproduction.

 

The way I see it, evolution is a slow and extremely refined process that cancels out all but the most environmentally adapt, the most intelligent/wise beings that can over come any hurdles. Random aggression will not be a part of this as it is detrimental to the wider picture, as each single plant or other species can prove useful. By studying other species the path to exploration and understanding is able to be sped up, for example, a birds wings, a cats foot - these are all things an intelligent being would learn from as evolution has moulded it to work in reality.

 

Creatures are able to live in this ecosystem, sharks eat and give back but they do not thrive for a deeper understanding. A bird is adapt and intelligent in most cases but again they do not thrive for knowledge. One of the interesting aspects to look at is why apes evolved for higher intelligence. I have read that cooking was one of the factors. Perhaps a bird could learn this, but which ever way this happens - at some point I expect, a species with the ability to adapt AND to expand knowledge will be inherently peaceful and harmonious.

 

[Guest joshier]

What's the story behind that guy? Made my stomach hurt.

[Guest beatfanatic]

Human beings are a mistake, an evolutionary dead end, as we no longer evolve to fit our environment, but attempt (futilely) to adapt our environment to us.

 

The Gaia super-organism will auto-correct sooner or later to be rid of us. This is probably for the best.

 

thats the season finale to Lost right there.

[Squee]

What's the story behind that guy? Made my stomach hurt.

 

He thinks he can fly. I'm not kidding.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqLsOUl-Dvc

[MAXIMUS MISCHIEF]

Human beings are a mistake, an evolutionary dead end, as we no longer evolve to fit our environment, but attempt (futilely) to adapt our environment to us.

 

The Gaia super-organism will auto-correct sooner or later to be rid of us. This is probably for the best.

 

fucking lol

[Guest Calx Sherbet]

Human beings are a mistake, an evolutionary dead end

 

shoulda just stopped at the ape, we were smarter at that point

[YEK]

i thought aliens brought us to earth?>>

[Guest Rambo]

*watmm tiptoes around the white elephant*

[lumpenprol]

I think any spacefaring aliens will be more or less just like us. Because the only force that shapes organisms out there that we are aware of is natural selection. And natural selection rewards aggression and selfishness as much as it does altruism. I think you're right that in order really make big communal strides (and the sacrifices we'll need to make to survive long term in a world with finite resources) we'll need to suppress the more antisocial aspects of our personalities. But that won't be through evolution, just self-medication and or gene-modification. We're doing it already.

 

Humans haven't really evolved since we started using antibiotics and saving every little mutant baby out there.

 

The "mental biodiversity" of humans is already on the decline. Modern society demands a lot of us and there isn't much place for those who don't conform. If they cure schizophrenia, we may no longer have schizophrenic artists. It's hard to advocate for mental illness, and yet a world without mental illness would be a less human place. It's the same with anything physical, never seeing a leper, never having a loved one die prematurely, means you view health in an entirely different way. The scores of us who live our entire lives in suburbia don't realize we are pioneers in a way. And those of us who spend countless hours playing video games and surfing the web are too. We're not evolving, but we're conditioning and adapting to a very bizarre set of circumstances.

[Guest fox]

If they cure schizophrenia, we may no longer have schizophrenic artists. It's hard to advocate for mental illness, and yet a world without mental illness would be a less human place.

 

i can think of any number of mentally ill folks who would happily disagree with you.

 

oh, and i'm still waiting for that explanation of double guitars i was promised a while back in this thread

[lumpenprol]

If they cure schizophrenia, we may no longer have schizophrenic artists. It's hard to advocate for mental illness, and yet a world without mental illness would be a less human place.

 

i can think of any number of mentally ill folks who would happily disagree with you.

 

 

disagree with me about what, though? I'm talking about a cure for schizophrenia, not just treatment to make someone functional, but a real cure. If they could genetically modify people to "cure" schizophrenia, I think it's likely that a certain unique view on the world would be lost. To give you an example, I knew a girl with multiple personality disorder who was an amazing painter. If she hadn't been sexually abused, she probably wouldn't have developed multiple personality disorder and who's to say if she would have become such a unique artist. To put it less controversially, would Robert Graves have been the same artist he was if WWI hadn't happened? Would Monet have painted his late masterpieces if his vision could have been corrected? If we succeed in our goal of making the entire world secure and predictable, we lose something. It's a catch-22. Our very human desire for security is somewhat at odds with preserving the full spectrum of human-ness.

[Guest joshier]

It doesn't look like we will survive which leads me to think that a species that does surpass in terms of exploration will be different to us. Perhaps not so random and aggressive. Wiser and more intelligent.

 

The other intersting fact is - if a species (our size or bigger) is able to reach outer space and explore without dying - is instantly classified as intelligent in my opinion

[Guest Z_B_Z]

it sounds cliche but i really do think that its both the dark and the light that makes us human. i know mentally ill people suffer, ive had bad depression for years, but to totally eradicate the dark or 'sick' side of our nature would result in an incredibly dull existence. that being said, insanity will never be eradicated because as a species we're inherently insane. or at the very least incredibly self destructive (which i guess implies a certain level of insanity anyway)

[Guest joshier]

I think it's probably only a matter of time until a nuclear war is faught.

 

The only thing I think could change us drastically is education - the right education and resources equally and intelligently spent but there's too many of us and no one smart enough to organise it correctly. Though saying that ants have been able to achieve cooperation to a high level. I suppose we are less intelligent than them in some ways

[Guest Rambo]

It doesn't look like we will survive which leads me to think that a species that does surpass in terms of exploration will be different to us. Perhaps not so random and aggressive. Wiser and more intelligent.

 

The other intersting fact is - if a species (our size or bigger) is able to reach outer space and explore without dying - is instantly classified as intelligent in my opinion

 

It'll be AI or modified humans next. Probably both. There's not going to be another naturally evolving animal that suceeds us unless we are completely wiped out this century.

[Guest joshier]

That's a good point. I thought of that too .., the only way I see is being able to relax and not fight is by a non emotional computer program that makes decisions for us. Instead of bickering we will just have to agree . However, we ate the ones programming it so it's probably going to have problems