Zeitgeist - Moving Forward (now online)

[gaarg]

I've met Fresco and he's a decent guy. But even if he and Zeitgeist achieve a great thing on the world, people will come that don't give a fuck about moral and Zeitgeist, and only want power and material goods. The Venus project looks like a perfect project to make one god on earth. Sf all the way!

You clearly have not read any of my posts. I have already mentioned that an RBE will not come into place until people have an awareness of sustainable values. It's not about "having morals" - they are subjective and culturally defined. Linking so-called "morals" in line with sustainability for life on the planet would be a more objective frame of reference to adopt. This should be really obvious to everyone - I still don't know why it isn't.

 

Have people ever in the past ever been able to hold back and not exploit, if able to? Sure, smaller individual societies have, but bigger ones always tend to crop as much as possible to make their futures better and their lives wealthier. I agree that we should change somehow and of course it would be best for all people to start working on making this planet nice again, but I think it will happen gradually and naturally. That is to say (as Žižek loves to say), a power catastrophe here and there, major disappointment from the majority of people, that will make governments (if there are any left then) actually start repairing things on a large scale.

 

Capitalism still hasn't burned out, he's got some potential left and I think It's not gonna crumble as long as it hasn't failed utterly.

[Guest AcrossCanyons]

what you do towards living a resource-based economy bread? just curious.

[Dale]

what you do towards living a resource-based economy bread? just curious.

I coordinate a regional chapter in the UK. This means preparing meetings for members, meeting new members, running film screenings of our materials (often at my own expense as well as others working with me), arranging presentations and Q + A sessions with small local venues, reaching out to educational institutions about these ideas such as universities and colleges. We're planning on getting a small information stall in the town I live in. I do a lot of communication basically. This is as much as I can do locally (but we have chapters across the world, around 500 chapters approx who are doing the same thing as me, the movement has a steady growth rate internationally). The new film will help boost numbers by the thousands.

I maintain a balance though - I still have to work like everyone else. I'm studying for a degree part time as well.

[Guest Gary C]

Fuck Zeitgeist. This thread has only inspired me to watch They Live! It can be watched online.

[Guest Gbiscuit]

..how much sense it all seemed to make.

 

Glenn Beck makes a lot of sense too, that doesn't mean he's right.

 

Fuck Zeitgeist. This thread has only inspired me to watch They Live! It can be watched online.

 

Thank you.

[chenGOD]

Bread - you don't actually counter any of my points. You just ramble on about how the RBE will change everything. Please tell me how the RBE accounts for opportunity cost, who makes decisions where scarcity is involved, what determines distribution schedules efficiently etc.

 

A market is pretty simple - it is not the more money you have the more access you have. It is about how goods are most efficiently distributed to meet demand. Take an intro course to microeconomics. Please.

 

I have watched Century of the Self many times, and I don't think you understand the point to the film. It is not about how detrimental individuality is, it is about the illusion of individualism that we have. Individualism does not have to equate to putting yourself as more important than others, rather it is a means of differentiating oneself.

 

Global surveys of resources have never been done? What planet are you living on? We know how much wood there is, how much oil there is, how much available farmland there is, and so on. Companies already forecast shortages and work with trends.

 

You don't want to deny the west's progress, but you want to deny how we got here - which was based on the exploitation of others and not allowing others access to our markets. For a quote re: tearing down society here's a good start straight from Fresco's essay

This new social design works towards eliminating the underlying causes that are responsible for many of our problems. But, as stated previously, they cannot be eliminated within the framework of the present monetary and political establishment.

That sounds like a pretty solid tearing down of everything that has come before.

[vamos scorcho]

century of the self may be my favorite documentary i've ever seen. not only is it a great work of art and filmmaking, it also might be the most relevant to mankind/society at this point in time.

[vamos scorcho]

there is lack of humanity in this world, especially in high places. people need to feel loved and appreciated. if everyone would help spread positivity i promise that many of the practical problems that we have would be easier to fix.

 

the century of the self is a problem not only because of the illusion, but because many have forgotten about the world outside. that people need help, things need to progress, there are problems. we have to step outside of our resources and money altogether in order to survive for another 100 years.

 

the only way this will happen is if more of those in the know will begin to practice what they preach / believe in, and spread the message of awareness and, so help me god, love.

[Guest Funktion]

this thread i thought was pretty interesting, it's so cool how chomsky has time for people

[Dale]

Bread - you don't actually counter any of my points. You just ramble on about how the RBE will change everything. Please tell me how the RBE accounts for opportunity cost, who makes decisions where scarcity is involved, what determines distribution schedules efficiently etc.

Firstly, how are decisions made currently when it comes to scarce resources? No one actually decides, because who ever has the money can afford it. The people without much money go without. The more something is seen to be scarce, the higher the value of that particular item [this is backwards] because it encourages keeping things scarce for profit motive reasons - do you condone this? Keeping things scarce is profitable. Resources are not equally shared out currently -- it's all worked out by how much money someone has. Are you implying this is a good way to decide resource allocation?

So, in an RBE, a moneyless society, alternative substitutes would be researched. We can only attempt to overcome scarce resources by using technology. This seems to be a better solution than the one which the freemarket ideology condones. Our current system does not even think like this.

It's a tricky situation when talking about "who gets the scarce resources" -- "who gets priority" -- I think what I've outlined is an improvement. Decisions such as resource management can be automated. Distribution can also be automated -- you can have distribution centres where products are produced in fully automated factories. You select the item you would like online, and you can either have the item delivered to you using electronic transportation methods, powered by renewable energy or you can pick up the item yourself. Pneumatic tubes could even be used, connected up to homes. The item's packaging could be bio-degradable or recyclable. A machine in your house could melt down certain packaging, only to be reshaped and reused later on. So many viable ideas out there but they all come at a monetary cost. We may have the resources to carry out these solutions, but money limits this progression.

 

A market is pretty simple - it is not the more money you have the more access you have. It is about how goods are most efficiently distributed to meet demand. Take an intro course to microeconomics. Please.

Your education on a market is within the confines of a monetary system. A market system generally has monetary associations. An RBE couldn't be associated with a "market" if the term has monetary connotations attached to it. Money is a mathematically flawed system.

 

Tell me, what are your thoughts on the structure of a money system? Do you know it is mathematically flawed from the get-go? You still have not addressed this. All money is printed at a debt. If you and I lived in a closed economy, and I was the bank, I lend you some money plus interest, where does the interest come from? Me of course -- and again, the interest is funded by a new loan. Again, where does the interest on this loan come from?

 

I have watched Century of the Self many times, and I don't think you understand the point to the film. It is not about how detrimental individuality is, it is about the illusion of individualism that we have. Individualism does not have to equate to putting yourself as more important than others, rather it is a means of differentiating oneself.

But isn't having an illusion detrimental to the psychology of a society? You're not taking this into account. It's as if you like deluding yourself with being an individual. Tell me why you feel the need to differentiate yourself from other people? For monetary related purposes? I don't understand why you are advocating individualism. It distorts what we have in common. How individual do you want to be? > 5% individual to others? maybe 37.5% individual? Why not go all the way to 100%? -- if you were truly individual, you could not relate to anyone.

 

Global surveys of resources have never been done? What planet are you living on? We know how much wood there is, how much oil there is, how much available farmland there is, and so on. Companies already forecast shortages and work with trends.

Yes, this does occur, however these companies don't bring the data together in one exclusive database for the public to see - this is what I mean -- assessing resources on a global scale of literally everything. They are not working together due to capitalistic, competitive mentalitities - this is silly and immature. Not progressive. Very simple.

Also, how can you trust a lot of these trends and data when you live in a monetary system where it is profitable to make things appear to be scarce? You can't have a truthful organisation of people assessing the number of resources in the world when it is profitable to corrupt the data for profit. An RBE does not allow the room for this to happen as the monetary reward to carry out this corruption is non-existent.

 

You don't want to deny the west's progress, but you want to deny how we got here - which was based on the exploitation of others and not allowing others access to our markets. For a quote re: tearing down society here's a good start straight from Fresco's essay

This new social design works towards eliminating the underlying causes that are responsible for many of our problems. But, as stated previously, they cannot be eliminated within the framework of the present monetary and political establishment.

That sounds like a pretty solid tearing down of everything that has come before.

No, you're projecting into that statement you've quoted. Quite simply, we're saying that we want to get to the fundamental root causes of all social problems. You're implying we want to tear down the progression of the Western world -- the technologies created today can still be used and updated, but the subjective political, monetary frameworks are irrelevant now that we can utilise technology and science for arriving at empirical decisions. There's nothing I can do about the historic exploitations that the West have carried out to get to where we are now -- it's an unfortunate history -- doesn't mean we'll get rid of where technologies are currently at today.

[Redruth]

This thread has inspired me to watch They Live! It can be watched online.

put on the fucking glasses

 

 

[chenGOD]

Factories that assemble everything in one place already exist, no sweat there. How do you get the resources to the factory? Delivery systems are already pretty much as streamlined and efficient as possible, in the name of competition. Individual delivery systems are not efficient. Every resource is considered "scarce" by the way. The scarcity results because of desire for things such as better food, clothing, housing, education, holidays, health care and yes, entertainment. In an RBE, everyone would be eating the same food, because that is the most efficient method of distribution. We all have the same clothes. We all have the same house. That is efficiency.

If you can figure out how to control the aforementioned desire, (which RBE proponents might say derives from ignorance) congratulations, for you have achieved enlightenment and may now enter into nirvana.

As for resource surveys - the information is usually widely available for almost any commodity that the general public and even the non-general public could consider. The information which is restricted is generally of little value to any but a few.

 

A market is a market - money doesn't have to enter into the equation at all. I could trade you 4 beans for 2 peanuts. There are two key things to remember when considering markets: 1. Markets are self-organizing. 2. There is no such thing as a free market. I have mentioned previously that I do not believe in the free market economics espoused by libertarians and the Austrian school. If you read what I have posted in previous threads you can see that I would much prefer the means of production to be in the hands of the public with the market responsible for how goods are distributed.

 

A society is made up of individuals. This is true of all societies, even ones that didn't take part in fiat currency based economies. Why would I want to differentiate myself? For mating purposes or social relations maybe? For any number of reasons.

 

I'm not projecting anything into the quote: the quote talks about the existing framework. The venusproject wants to remove those frameworks (which have enabled us to get this far) and replace it with centralized distribution, removal of individuality, and I haven't even started looking at what they want for political leadership. They probably want no political leadership, which is nonsense for any sufficiently large population. You're studying sociology - look at how societies organize, even when they don't take part in fiat-currency based economies.

[Dale]

Film poster attached - there will be global screenings by the movement between the dates of Jan 15th and Jan 25th 2011 before it is released online for free download. I understand there will be quite a few independent cinemas in the UK and US screening this. Also, there should be Q+A sessions afterwards arranged by movement members. http://www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com/

[Guest Funktion]

mervyn king, the governer of the bank of england, gave a speech in new york last week suggesting we should abolish the fractional reserve banking system.

 

 

thought yall should know.

[Redruth]

You have to bust the boil if you want it to heal.

[Guest Al5x]

Holy shit I just read this: "Science is the most honest process of gathering and reviewing data/information, and getting feedback from the environment around us."

 

Wait...are you saying that this isn't 100% true?

 

[gaarg]

Holy shit I just read this: "Science is the most honest process of gathering and reviewing data/information, and getting feedback from the environment around us."

 

Wait...are you saying that this isn't 100% true?

 

 

I'm admitting it's 100% true from the scientific point of view. There was always something else with human, some level of awareness, some source of intuitive that we just kinda feel as living beings that was and will probably remain beyond science.

[Guest Al5x]

Holy shit I just read this: "Science is the most honest process of gathering and reviewing data/information, and getting feedback from the environment around us."

 

Wait...are you saying that this isn't 100% true?

 

 

I'm admitting it's 100% true from the scientific point of view. There was always something else with human, some level of awareness, some source of intuitive that we just kinda feel as living beings that was and will probably remain beyond science.

 

That doesn't discount anything science has to offer because at the moment the scientific community has no opinion on such things.

 

It's also important to understand how often and how convincingly your own mind will play tricks on you. If the information out there about something is ambiguous, its easier to think what you would like to think. It's more fun to think the world is mysterious, that there's "something more" to it. Not that I know anything about that more than you of course. Maybe you're right

 

As for the rest of this thread..you're all very silly.

[gaarg]

Holy shit I just read this: "Science is the most honest process of gathering and reviewing data/information, and getting feedback from the environment around us."

 

Wait...are you saying that this isn't 100% true?

 

 

I'm admitting it's 100% true from the scientific point of view. There was always something else with human, some level of awareness, some source of intuitive that we just kinda feel as living beings that was and will probably remain beyond science.

 

 

 

That doesn't discount anything science has to offer because at the moment the scientific community has no opinion on such things.

 

It's also important to understand how often and how convincingly your own mind will play tricks on you. If the information out there about something is ambiguous, its easier to think what you would like to think. It's more fun to think the world is mysterious, that there's "something more" to it. Not that I know anything about that more than you of course. Maybe you're right

 

As for the rest of this thread..you're all very silly.

 

Philosophically reality can be view from different angles. For example. the reality of matter that science is exploring is but a way to interpret how the world works. Of course it's measurable and handy and thus easier to be believed, but history has thought us that the reality as a whole doesn't seem to be grasped with scientific measures.

 

Something that totally kills my theory is the fact that quantum physics seem to have discovered "things" (I have no clue on this, I just hear this and that) that affirm some alter science, even religious reality views.

 

I'd love to believe some of the things I've been meditating on, and science is actually catching up or so it seems. But I also believe that it can NEVER catch up entirely to explain reality.

 

Meh.

[Dale]

Check your area for a local screening of the film. Screenings will take place between 15th - 25 January. I understand there are approx 300 screenings worldwide. Online release will be after 25th January:

http://www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com/zmap

[tontonz1]

lol at the geographical distribution

[Guest fiznuthian]

i don't affiliate with this movement but i do cross paths in some ways...

for years now i have been formulating how i will spend the rest of my life and

i have come to one conclusion..

 

i want to consume so little that i affect no one else by doing so.

currently i'm continuing my education and working to accumulate the money i'll

need to set this up..

in an ideal world i would rather just take to the land and work with what i can,

but the government would have a problem with my living off the land for free.

 

so i'm going to buy land instead..

but once its mine i will begin building a simple, small home by hand.

i've spent a lot of time in the forest but not nearly enough.

giving up most material possessions that make our lives so easy will be a hard change,

but im not the type who cares too much about fashion, gadgets, or fancy shit anyway..

no or extremely little electricity will be difficult as well.

this works great for me because i am a simple person who prefers to own as little as possible already.

once i own a home i will grow gardens, preferably mycorrhizal gardens.

i will learn to cook with simple fire, i will learn to build on my home to make it safer.

i'll own a dog for company and spend most of my free time cultivating plants to ensure i can feed.

 

i'm quite serious about this, and slowly i'm getting there even as we speak.

its been an obsession for years now.

i'll need to make money to pay taxes so who knows, i guess i'll just be a farmer

but mostly farm to feed myself and a family if some lady is nuts enough to live with me.

currently i'm teaching myself mushroom cultivation so growing edibles could be another source of minimal income.

or handcrafting i guess.

manipulating spore dispersal will become invaluable to warding off disease.

 

if all goes according to plan i will be able to maintain myself without a corporate job

and live a low-impact lifestyle.. many people have already beat me to it and self-sustainable

lifestyles are becoming more and more popular.

some of them still drive audis so eh..

i can do without a car even if it takes a couple hours to walk and run to town.

running and hiking makes me feel alive.

 

i don't know exactly how this will all eventually play out,

i can't abandon society altogether and we rely so much on technology and science now.

could i really give up my ability to use hospital services or drive places?

 

its likely i will end up picking and choosing changes that fit the plan,

and not adopting changes so radical they will be completely detrimental to my health.

post-industrial luxuries i can do without though..

i don't need a computer, i don't need a car or a bike,

i don't need anything but food, shelter, clean water, a dog, and a forest to construct my way of life.

[Guest fiznuthian]

forgot to mention i'll also die young(er).

or die because of a bear or a snake.

[skotosa]

We will miss seeing you on this forum once your planed path is set.

[Guest sine]

forgot to mention i'll also die young(er).

or die because of a bear or a snake.

Taki,the post apocalyptic wonder pup will fight them both off.