Obama Admin. admits to surveillance methods: Beating a Dead Horse Pt. 74

[lumpenprol]

re: the two vids you posted: to be fair, I don't think the second one is a threat. I think he's saying if Americans don't trust the govt. in any way, that could lead to a breakdown in civil society (ie., a problem).

 

I strongly believe the govt needs the ability to conduct certain activities in private. The "smoke filled room" is a useful thing. But, they need to be transparent to the properly placed people in Congress. In fact I'm not convinced that is the case here, I think some of these agencies, like the NSA, but particularly these independent contractors, may not be reporting honestly or clearly to Congress.

 

It bears mentioning the larger issue too, which Obama completely sidesteps, which is even if they don't read all communication without a warrant of some kind, if they archive it all for later reference (and potential opening), that's a huge fucking problem in my eyes. I would say that even if they never act on it, that kind of large-scale data collection is already a violation of my rights.

 

I am very allergic to the strangling effect that technology has on freedom, it's insidious and unavoidable in so many ways. For example, gps, ok we all love it if we are trying to find our way around an unfamiliar city, but I hate the idea that now there's no way to really get "off the grid", to live out in the country, or even a foreign country. Now we're always trackable. This feels oppressive, and it's only going to get more so (look at all of the cams everywhere). So our domain of true freedom is slowly but surely being limited to only inside our homes.

 

The simple truth is, systems need to be imperfect, for true freedom to flourish. Otherwise people become drones. I'm actually a big supporter of mild lawbreaking, especially in the teen years when kids are full of energy. Want to do a bit of tagging? Or steal some liquor from the local store? That's fine in my book, it's part of the living breathing reality of life (and yes, if the cops want to get personally involved, that's fine too, a slap on the wrist is part of the whole process). Clever criminality, the *possibility of rules that are still breakable*, is part of what makes life, life. If my mom wants to swipe a towel from a hotel. If I want to go get a hooker for the night. These are the sort of "white lie" crimes that make life still liveable. People want to be able to smoke cigarettes, or drive a motorcycle without a helmet (dumbasses, but I'll defend their right to do so). All these little interstices in the policing of normal life, these little windows in the concrete wall of "100% ever-watchful law enforcement" make life endurable, entertaining.

 

That's what is truly at stake, but no-one will say it. Nobody wants it to be possible for the govt. to read their emails, where they confess to a buddy how drunk they got the other night, and crashed their car into a parked car but no-one noticed. Or they fucked their cousin, or smoked some weed, or whatever. It's none of the govt's fucking business.

 

Give me a place with no cameras at street level, no bots reading my mail. Yay libertarianism. Fuck the fuck off, govt. I'll gladly take a few Marathon bombings in exchange for staying the fuck out of my business. Yeah, roads and hospitals are nice, but don't be a fucking nanny state (in the broadest sense).

[lumpenprol]

Incidentally, I've been rewatching the Sopranos lately (bye, Gandolfini), and I think that's one possible way the popularity of the show can be interpreted: as one of the last flights of fantasy available to modern urbanites. There are no longer really any pirates (except in Somalia). Batman is for fucking kids....so what does that leave for adults who want a bit of escapism? The mafia. They represent a vulgar, entertaining "middle finger' to the encroaching police state, the draining uniformity of modern life. I think most people feel it, they just can't put their finger on it, why they are subtly displeased with the direction things are headed in...

 

Assuming the whole of modern society doesn't collapse like a house of cards (it very well may), there may be no possibility of "The Wire"...or "Sopranos" in the future...I've often said that the human drive for security is actually ultimately self-defeating and toxic. What we think we want - ultimate security - is in fact going to destroy the very definition of what it means to be human (I'm including in "ultimate security" the desire to control our genes, live forever, etc).

[YO303]

To be honest, i think Obama has no control over all of this. You can criticize him all you want but there are other forces at work here.

 

[Adieu]

I think we can all agree that there are numerous reasons why we don't want our digital lives intruded upon. Including but not limited to that one time I googled "Mr. Hands" out of morbid curiosity.

[kcinsu]

just in case you guys didn't hear: remaining silent is no longer an acceptable expression of invoking your right to do so. you need to say "IM INVOKING MY RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT GUYSE" or anything you say can and will be used against you

 

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/15787-supreme-court-bombshell-no-right-to-remain-silent

Its even worse than that. Your silence can be interpreted as admission of guilt, because if you weren't guilty you'd say so. The case that this grew out of, the guy didn't respond and looked at his feet. They interpreted that as acting guilty, to the point that it was admission of guilt.

 

Fucked up.

 

How many people read a news article that spelled this technicality out? Probably not many... Imagine how many people will get fucked for remaining silent, when they think they are asserting a right that was just read to them.

 

If someone told me I had the right to remain silent... I see no implication in those words that I have to speak up my silence.

[awepittance]

To be honest, i think Obama has no control over all of this. You can criticize him all you want but there are other forces at work here.

 

well it's not as if he is lacking free will. he would go down in history of one of the most admirable and progressive presidents in history if he actually did some kind of transparency and truth and reconciliation of Bush crimes like he alluded to in his campaign. You could come up with all sorts of theories like 'they will kill his family if he gets out of line' or 'they showed him the other angle of kennedy being shot' or 'he knows that someone will send him anthrax if he doesnt play ball' but we don't know any of that. All we know is that this man has lied to us all and simultaneously made the progressive 'intellectual elite' of this country go completely to sleep.

 

[awepittance]

re: the two vids you posted: to be fair, I don't think the second one is a threat. I think he's saying if Americans don't trust the govt. in any way, that could lead to a breakdown in civil society (ie., a problem).

i agree with that, he's not threatening any sort of government force or crack down but to suggest that the fabric of society will be jeopardized if people learn the truth about the level of spying going on, it complete BS. It's a tactic that's been used by the US government at least as far back as Ford pardoning Nixon. In Ford's speech he essentially says the same thing, that allowing Nixon to face the justice system would disrupt the societal balance and cause uncertainty and people to lose faith in the government. Well gee sorry guys, that's what you deserve when you overstep and circumvent the justice system that all other people are subjected to.

 

Edit: what did you think of that first video though? I just think it's remarkable how Obama used his lawyer vibes to actually make people believe he was going to reverse Bush policy. The only thing i can actually give him credit for is that he put a stop to torture happening under US watch, but extraordinary rendition is still allowed, so you can still export torture, just not actually carry it out if you work for the US government.

 

the talking point usually comes in 2 flavors, the more common one is that revealing 'secret' truths will actually make us less safe, and open to more terrorist attacks.

 

There is a good J Edgar Hoover quote in the Oliver Stone movie Nixon that's probably not real but it's great

 

 

 

 

I look at it from the point of view

that the system can only take so much

abuse. It adjusts itself eventually,

but at times there are ... savage

outbursts. The late "Doctor" King for

example. A moral hypocrite screwing

women like a degenerate tomcat,

stirring up the blacks, preaching

against our system ...

(shakes his head)

Sometimes the system comes close to

cracking.

[YO303]

I just think its easy to blame it on him when there is obviously something bigger going on, this shit isnt new to his administration and it seems to transcend partisan, i'll will go as far as saying shadow government pulling all the strings. There is a deep rotted way of thinking in the powers that control this country, almost like a religion and i dont think Obama (nor any president before and after him) is big enough to put a stop to it.

[awepittance]

lol

[BobDobalina]

The clown crying inside me wanted to post this here:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/well-time-to-go-out-in-front-of-a-bunch-of-people,32948/

 

QFT

 

 

And I almost forgot to mention the craziest part about all of this: When I go out there and deceive these reporters, it won’t end there. Sure, I might start out spinning lies in front of the 50 or so journalists who actually attend the press conference, but then these people go back to their offices and write stories that circulate my lies—pretty faithfully, I might add—to their millions of readers. And then, in turn, these fictions are repeated again and again throughout the public discourse until they eventually attain a level of societal acceptance that ensures the actual truth remains hopelessly obscured, along with any semblance of executive transparency on the issues. Pretty wild, huh?

 

 

[awepittance]

that article is great, i wonder how long it will be before they have to trade Jay Carney out for someone else. Bush went through 4 press secretaries in 8 years. Obama's only on his 2nd

[awepittance]

the original NSA whistleblower revealed that the NSA spied on Obama back in 2004 when he became a rising star in politics. Pretty wild.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-nsa-spied-on-barack-obama-2004-russ-tice-2013-6



all those revelations revealed after MLK's death about how hardcore the FBI was spying on him seem very minuscule in comparison to these revelations. He's even claiming Colin Powell was wire tapped while he was still working for Bush.

[goDel]

The clown crying inside me wanted to post this here:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/well-time-to-go-out-in-front-of-a-bunch-of-people,32948/

 

QFT

 

 

 

And I almost forgot to mention the craziest part about all of this: When I go out there and deceive these reporters, it won’t end there. Sure, I might start out spinning lies in front of the 50 or so journalists who actually attend the press conference, but then these people go back to their offices and write stories that circulate my lies—pretty faithfully, I might add—to their millions of readers. And then, in turn, these fictions are repeated again and again throughout the public discourse until they eventually attain a level of societal acceptance that ensures the actual truth remains hopelessly obscured, along with any semblance of executive transparency on the issues. Pretty wild, huh?

 

Lol

 

Although i do wonder which truth you mean. The -arguably- implied one? Or the explained one? ;D

[SR4]

 

here is Fox News sticking up for Glenn Greenwald

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR-mzZUSfXI

 

feels like a parallel dimension

 

Is it me, or do these hosts read like third rate actors? Totally scripted.

 

weakest attempt at a faux-position ive probably ever seen on here. thats something to be proud of on an uber-sociopathic level.

 

The clown crying inside me wanted to post this here:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/well-time-to-go-out-in-front-of-a-bunch-of-people,32948/

 

QFT

 

 

And I almost forgot to mention the craziest part about all of this: When I go out there and deceive these reporters, it won’t end there. Sure, I might start out spinning lies in front of the 50 or so journalists who actually attend the press conference, but then these people go back to their offices and write stories that circulate my lies—pretty faithfully, I might add—to their millions of readers. And then, in turn, these fictions are repeated again and again throughout the public discourse until they eventually attain a level of societal acceptance that ensures the actual truth remains hopelessly obscured, along with any semblance of executive transparency on the issues. Pretty wild, huh?

Lol

 

Although i do wonder which truth you mean. The -arguably- implied one? Or the explained one? ;D

 

I'll take college level critique for 200 alex

[MisterE]

To be honest, i think Obama has no control over all of this. You can criticize him all you want but there are other forces at work here.

you're prob right. O is swell guy. is prob "illuminati".

[YO303]

If you want accountability, do you really think making Obama accountable will fix things? Like i said before this seems to transcends president, lawmakers etc.

 

If you impeach Obama and vote out 80 percent of congress they will be replaced by other puppets ready for their strings to be pulled.

 

The system and the culture of politics had made it hard for people who would really change things to be elected, if you want accountability you can blame Obama all you want (dont get me wrong he deserves some blame) but this is a bigger problem and its not as simple as "the presidents does".

[MisterE]

how can anyone purport to know, within any degree of accuracy in a ballpark, how much blame obama does or does not get? or any specific person? i don't have top secret clearance, so i don't know.

 

i do know that things (not just this) have gotten worse in the past 5yrs. i do know that the white house has defended these programs. i agree that it's obviously not just him, but you say 'what does it accomplish placing blame on obama' and to that i say 'what does it accomplish taking it away from him?' he hasn't shut down gitmo. he has taken personal interest in the drone strikes and decided to hand pick who to strike which seems to have resulted in a huge increase of drone strike deaths. people say he could go down in history as a super rad progressive president. why, because he broke most of his promises that he made to his liberal voter base? is it because he SAID gay marriage was ok with him- during an election year, after ~4yrs into his presidency? is it because being on foodstamps and other federal aid is becoming more of a norm rather than a safety net under his presidency?

 

is it because he hasn't YET decided to come down on colorado or washington for the marijuana thing? it tickles me that folks think they are in the clear there, when it's entirely on his whim. it's still illegal in those states. it's against federal law. what did O have to do with those states abolishing their own laws against it? nothing. and just like he has cracked down on dispensaries in cali, he reserves the right to do crack down on colorado and washington. considering how he has shown that he will go after anyone who fucks with him, including several journos who dared to report on his policies (is that what he's done that's so progressive? scaring/intimidating journalists like a good dictator should?), i think co and wa had better not step on his toes and better hope they don't get caught up in a crossfire. (not that it really matters since anyone with even scant connections already can get weed, anywhere, any time they want it, and legalizing most likely isn't going to lower prices. look at the tax hikes dems have put on cigarettes. here's another angle- how 'cool' is it going to be to smoke joints all day if the shit actually becomes legal? then it won't be so 'counter-culture' anymore, will it?)

[delet...]

why shouldn't obama take the blame, he's the where the buck stops. If he has a crisis of confidence he should bloody well tell the people all he knows in a press conference and then resign. They wouldn't kill him, they wouldn't know how to respond to that situation. And it's not like he this would ruin his life financially, being a millionaire already.

 

Oh poor oblahma, things just happen beyond his control, even though he is in control of them. This is same as CEO's never taking responsibility for fucking anything up. (They sticking their hand up for an extra big bonus every time something accidently goes right. Actually what am i saying, they always get their bonus, whatever happens.)

 

He's cia, he shook hands with the devil a long time ago, he doesn't give a fuck about those outside.

[Guest Atom Dowry Firth]

The difference in his self confidence level is night and day between those two vids

[awepittance]

it sure is, he has this weird aura of defensiveness that George W exhibited in his 2nd term. Of course Obama has a much cooler seeming demeanor, but the difference between the candidate Obama and president is stark. Not only does he look like Shang Tsung did a soul suck fatality on him physically, he acts and looks like a person suffering from depression.

[Plarkreluke Banloboh]

I've often said that the human drive for security is actually ultimately self-defeating and toxic. What we think we want - ultimate security - is in fact going to destroy the very definition of what it means to be human (I'm including in "ultimate security" the desire to control our genes, live forever, etc).

 

Good points. The drive for security is an extension of insecurity. "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

[lumpenprol]

 

I've often said that the human drive for security is actually ultimately self-defeating and toxic. What we think we want - ultimate security - is in fact going to destroy the very definition of what it means to be human (I'm including in "ultimate security" the desire to control our genes, live forever, etc).

Good points. The drive for security is an extension of insecurity. "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

 

yeah, although back in the day when we were building spears and fortifications to protect ourselves from saber tooth tigers, it made perfect sense. That's what it was designed for. But now the earth is subdued and the frontier is gone, so it's like we're a bunch of guys standing around with armfuls of chains going "well...who do we tie up next? I guess ourselves." The chains in this crappy metaphor being of course really fucking sophisticated chains that allow us to spy and do drone strikes on our neighbors, lol.

[Plarkreluke Banloboh]

When something loses it's primary utility due to changes in the environment, after a period of irrelevancy it inevitably reinvents itself in a more gestural and expressive way. How will the security and surveillance industries adapt to a mostly non-violent world? BDSM?

[DerWaschbar]

 

 

I've often said that the human drive for security is actually ultimately self-defeating and toxic. What we think we want - ultimate security - is in fact going to destroy the very definition of what it means to be human (I'm including in "ultimate security" the desire to control our genes, live forever, etc).

Good points. The drive for security is an extension of insecurity. "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

 

yeah, although back in the day when we were building spears and fortifications to protect ourselves from saber tooth tigers, it made perfect sense. That's what it was designed for. But now the earth is subdued and the frontier is gone, so it's like we're a bunch of guys standing around with armfuls of chains going "well...who do we tie up next? I guess ourselves." The chains in this crappy metaphor being of course really fucking sophisticated chains that allow us to spy and do drone strikes on our neighbors, lol.

 

I've recently notice that snakes have started flying and opening doors... so that is something to consider.

[lumpenprol]

are you saying the snakes...have become the plane?