Hugh Mughnus

Actually... the real wages calculation already factors in the higher proportion of income spent on housing that you mentioned since that increased expenditure is represented in CPI? No? No. Think it through. I did but I'm no expert in this area. Real wages are an inflation adjusted representation of wages. Costs paid for shelter are included in calculating inflation. Real wages therefore include the increased cost of shelter in their calculation. Can you spell it out for me or show me what I'm missing? I'm not being facetious flippant (better word imo tbqh byob), I actually don't understand.

Actually... the real wages calculation already factors in the higher proportion of income spent on housing that you mentioned since that increased expenditure is represented in CPI? No? The Americas, or America, also known as the Western Hemisphere and the New World, are the combined continental landmasses of North America and South America lol

I'd like to find the proportion of income spent on housing, historically. I'm not finding much. Edit: looks like you've found some numbers. I do know however, that although the principal has increased over the years, lending rates have decreased. I've been told that there was a time where car loans were up in the 20-30% interest rate. I wonder what the mortgage rates were. Also there is one small thing to consider... The proportion of income spent on housing number is slightly off because it doesn't control for those people that are doing well (like in Alberta) that choose to pay off their mortgages quicker with annual lump sum payments. Slightly skews it though admittedly probably not by a ton.

=/ Home ownership in Canada is historically increasing, first of all. It's gone down a bit recently but historically ownership is trending upwards. Edit: barely. But it is trending upwards. Real wages remaining stable means we're in the same position as ever. Again, it factors in the price of housing and everything else. If real wages are the same in 2015 as they were in 1981 then we're in the same position because, relative to the cost of everything, we still make the same. That's the whole point of the real wages measurement. It's a comparison of what we make to what the cost of everything is.....

Fair. So if you use median real wages and they've remained relatively flat then we're doing just dandy and people can stop complaining that everyone is poor and stuff is so expensive etc. This is not the argument people are making - they're combining the chart in the other thread (the one showing working hours have gone down), with the fact that real wages have remained relatively flat, to show that actually things are not that great. (Sorry all y'all Americans, I'm about to talk about Canada) Now if we look at the demographic here on watmm, males between 17-34 have actually seen their real wages go down. So you can see where a lot of people on here are coming from. When you tie that in with the fact that housing prices (whether resale or new) in urban centres (you know, places where people actually want to live), have increased faster than the rate of inflation, you can begin to see where the problem lies (data on housing prices from Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation). And this is in Canada, where things are not so bad. In the States, the income gap is growing, and there are no indications that the trend will reverse anytime soon. All fair points. However inflation includes housing prices. You seem to be separating the two. It doesn't exceed the rate of inflation because it's part of the inflation calculation. You can use other indexes that separate it out though? Edit: unless you mean it's the largest driver of inflation? It likely is. That's why I use real wages as a good indicator. It includes inflation which includes housing and other volatile prices we like to complain about. An increase in real wages is explicitly an increase in consumption power as it factors all these things in. Agreed we are not doing so bad here at all. The states has it much worse.

Also btw from the Bank of Canada website. "The inflation target is expressed as the year-over-year increase in the total consumer price index (CPI)-the most relevant measure of the cost of living for most Canadians." Inflation = CPI increase. It includes volatile items such as housing and oil and gas.

btw: you gave an example of the full time hourly wage increase in canada. do you know what the cost of home or car in canada was 30 years ago compared to today, or is it around the same price? The wage increase I referred to was in "real wages" meaning it was adjusted to consider consumer price index (inflation) increases. The term "real wages" means our earning power despite increases in the cost of consumer goods and shelter/etc. According to my research this actually includes the increased price of vehicles and shelter. Therefore the increase in wages I referred to is normalized according to real inflation (printing more money) as well as increased prices across the board. Let me know if I'm not making sense, but ultimately what I'm saying is Canadian's have more disposable income than 1981 because our "real wages" even when considering the increases in CPI (including transportation/cars and houses) has increased. Like... given the prices in 1981, we made $22.55 per hour. Fast forward to 2011 and adjust for inflation (printed money) and CPI increases, it's the equivalent as if we made $25.03 per hour in 1981. But to directly answer your question I don't have data available RE housing prices. My gf's mom bought her house for $80,000 in 1980. But consider the interest rate on cars etc back then was near 25%. Now inflation. Now if we want, we can use the bank of canada's very own handy inflation calculator We can see that a basket of goods that cost $100 in 1981, costs $242.02 in 2011. This is a percentage change of 142%. Which is a bit more than the 14% increase in real hourly wages. I don't think you do know what real wages are. Real wages are adjusted for inflation. What you've posted here would suggest we can actually buy less now than in 1981 but that is not true.

All of the points I made stand just fine whether using average or median real wages.

Fair. So if you use median real wages and they've remained relatively flat then we're doing just dandy and people can stop complaining that everyone is poor and stuff is so expensive etc.

btw: you gave an example of the full time hourly wage increase in canada. do you know what the cost of home or car in canada was 30 years ago compared to today, or is it around the same price? The wage increase I referred to was in "real wages" meaning it was adjusted to consider consumer price index (inflation) increases. The term "real wages" means our earning power despite increases in the cost of consumer goods and shelter/etc. According to my research this actually includes the increased price of vehicles and shelter. Therefore the increase in wages I referred to is normalized according to real inflation (printing more money) as well as increased prices across the board. Let me know if I'm not making sense, but ultimately what I'm saying is Canadian's have more disposable income than 1981 because our "real wages" even when considering the increases in CPI (including transportation/cars and houses) has increased. Like... given the prices in 1981, we made $22.55 per hour. Fast forward to 2011 and adjust for inflation (printed money) and CPI increases, it's the equivalent as if we made $25.03 per hour in 1981. But to directly answer your question I don't have data available RE housing prices. My gf's mom bought her house for $80,000 in 1980. But consider the interest rate on cars etc back then was near 25%. Stephen - couple of things: CPI and inflation are not the same thing. Generally people use the terms interchangeably. Laymens terms etc. Edit: here. Inflation: In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. When the price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. CPI: A consumer price index (CPI) measures changes in the price level of a market basket of consumer goods and services purchased by households. The CPI is a statistical estimate constructed using the prices of a sample of representative items whose prices are collected periodically. Aside from that I believe you are misinterpreting the data. "Real wages" are "real wages". "The term real wages refers to wages that have been adjusted for inflation, or, equivalently,wages in terms of the amount of goods and services that can be bought. This term is used in contrast to nominal wages or unadjustedwages." Real wages are specifically referring to consumption power. We are able to purchase a higher amount of goods and services than ever before.

mmm... Persona. I can't wait for Persona 5. Shin Megami Tensai games are up there with my favorites for sure.

A classic, for sure. They've really returned to form as well recently; Mechanize is a great album. Oh interesting, I thought they'd just reverted to new metal crappy vocals, rapping over tracks shittery but cool I'll check it out.... Demanufacture would be my second favorite of theirs after Obsolete. I haven't heard any of their new stuff though, I'll have to check it out. Mr Modey is their most recent worth checking out or just mechanize?

wtf?! who just "burns trees" for fun? =/ I'm no hippie, but If I caught someone burning down our forests for fun I would beat the shit out of them with no hesitation.

btw: you gave an example of the full time hourly wage increase in canada. do you know what the cost of home or car in canada was 30 years ago compared to today, or is it around the same price? The wage increase I referred to was in "real wages" meaning it was adjusted to consider consumer price index (inflation) increases. The term "real wages" means our earning power despite increases in the cost of consumer goods and shelter/etc. According to my research this actually includes the increased price of vehicles and shelter. Therefore the increase in wages I referred to is normalized according to real inflation (printing more money) as well as increased prices across the board. Let me know if I'm not making sense, but ultimately what I'm saying is Canadian's have more disposable income than 1981 because our "real wages" even when considering the increases in CPI (including transportation/cars and houses) has increased. Like... given the prices in 1981, we made $22.55 per hour. Fast forward to 2011 and adjust for inflation (printed money) and CPI increases, it's the equivalent as if we made $25.03 per hour in 1981. But to directly answer your question I don't have data available RE housing prices. My gf's mom bought her house for $80,000 in 1980. But consider the interest rate on cars etc back then was near 25%.

Crazy how expensive housing is in Canada when it's the 2nd largest country in the world and has a shit ton of space. Developers cram houses within pissing distance of each other and the average price for a house this July is $474,476. I'm not sure if the average real wages I posted above are adjusted for housing (aka not sure if CPI includes real estate).

Shouldn't things in general be less affordable if they are more scarce? To curb consumption you need to make things less available right? Edit: I wonder how real scarcity is. I'm not an economist by any means but I figure scarcity is used as leverage to justify raising prices in a disproportionate manner to it being a real phenomenon what things are scarce? also, do you think it's normal that paychecks are around the same amount as they were 30 years ago? because that was the main issue. things getting expensive comes with the territory especially when you consider the population increase Materials required to build the houses and cars etc shown in the video are not infinite. An example: mining for metal and hydrocarbons. There is lots of metal and oil in the planet, yes, but as we over-mine the planet companies develop new (and more expensive) techniques for locating and extracting these resources. The cost is passed on to the consumer. The relative scarcity compared to previous generations makes it more expensive for us than before. Same thing with farming. The huge population to feed causes meats to be scarce, relative to previous generations. Cost passed on to customer etc. Average real hourly wages for men aged 17-60 employed full time in Canada has actually increased from $22.55 to $25.03 in the last 30 years. Real wages are adjusted for CPI increases, meaning we are actually enjoying more spending/consumption power than before. That comparison is in 2010 dollars btw and is actually from 1981-2011. Edit: I know that's not the same as the USA but I'm sure there's similar stats for the USA?

All correct, yes.

Shouldn't things in general be less affordable if they are more scarce? To curb consumption you need to make things less available right? Edit: I wonder how real scarcity is. I'm not an economist by any means but I figure scarcity is used as leverage to justify raising prices in a disproportionate manner to it being a real phenomenon

Isn't it relevant that space and resources are finite? I think it is, to a degree.

The Fable of the Kid Who Shifted His Ideals to Golf and Finally Became a Baseball Fan and Took the Only Known Cure

The bass guitar in this: Sounds like it's from this:

lol @ "the original black midi"

I actually listened to sextant last night and didn't like it. I didn't really understand what he was going for. I'm not discounting it but first impression wasn't good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect Studied this in my psych course a few years ago.

Bite it back. Establish the hierarchy.