Hoodie Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i really liked obama's original health care plan. i don't even know what it's turned into at this point... i'd rather it not get passed, because some health care isn't necessarily better than no health care at all, if it means that in the future it would be harder to implement better plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rabid Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Some of us that oppose *this* healthcare reform have valid legitimate reasons. (Financial for me, primarily) how come the rest of the world manages to afford it just fine? I don't know, why don't you think about that one for a while. Here's a hint. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 yeah, if we were more open minded and not so scared of the government running some things, like oh, the VA hospitals or medicare we might have got a really good single payer plan. When you bring up medicare being a national health care system to conservatives the only argument they have is they "payed into it"..Well, some people payed more and some people payed less. A lot less and everyone gets the same care. That is socialism and they love it and they defend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mafted Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I think Churchill said Americans will do the right thing once everything else has been tried. That guy was on point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 One of the simplest, most viable, easy to attain ways to achieve more balance (by means of competition) and cheaper rates would be to allow healthcare policies accross state lines. But what do you consider more efficient? - all organisations involved being competitive against one another or coming together with the same ideas to produce progression within society? Competition is a corrupt element within the financial world, which ultimately creates distrust. The NHS in the UK is very good, and in my experience it is a well run institution. I'd hate to live in a country where your health cover could be declined due to a competitive insurance company looking to actively decline a claim as soon as they are notified of your injury or illness before the claim paperwork is even sent through to them. Have you ever worked in insurance? Trust me when I say that all insurance companies do their very best to ensure that cover is denied to maintain profitability - if they did not have this attitude, they would permanently cease to trade with immediate affect. Money and the pursuit of profit should never be involved in health care or even education for that matter - because it distorts what is actually socially relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 amen to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JW Modestburns Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 This has been one hell of a blunder. Since the supreme court just opened the flood gates on corporate funded propaganda, we can expect that any future attempt to reform health care will be met with an even larger barrage of bullshit media funded by huge corporate interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i called it before he got elected, Obama will go down as a failed presidency, and all of my friends call me out being a "right-wing nut" for saying it, but if anything it only shows how short-sighted and biased they are. Jon Stewart nailed the commentary on the Democratic party. Ever since they started branching out and "liberalizing" (though I use that term VERY loosely), they stood for less and less, whereas the Republicans can almost always continue on their policy line and only truely worry about social or wedge issues. This is the weakness of the Democratic party: it attempts to appeal to so many people and tries to maintain the appearance of being an open, tolerant and progressive party, when in fact they exhaust all of their political clout simply trying to maintain that appearance. By the time you try to push legislation through, it completely falls flat due to constant kow-towing to the dissension within Congress. You know what they should have done with those majorities and the presidency? Give a huge FUCK YOU to the Republican party for actually pushing through every shite piece of national security regulations and not giving a damn about what the dems think. That my friends, is how you act when you have a majority. Stop pretending to be bipartisan, if anything be loud and vocalize how this bill will specifically be Partisan, and the Repubs can go fuck themselves. But in the end, its all about keeping your cushy government job and all the backdoor payoffs that come with the title. So fucking sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azatoth Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 You know what they should have done with those majorities and the presidency? Give a huge FUCK YOU to the Republican party for actually pushing through every shite piece of national security regulations and not giving a damn about what the dems think. That my friends, is how you act when you have a majority. Stop pretending to be bipartisan, if anything be loud and vocalize how this bill will specifically be Partisan, and the Repubs can go fuck themselves. But in the end, its all about keeping your cushy government job and all the backdoor payoffs that come with the title. So fucking sad. this, is exactly the problem. too milquetoast. the bipartisanship BS is what cost the US to get a proper healthcare system. the whole american system is so broken and corrupt. obama and his dems are pussies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i mean, think of impact if healthcare was passed by the Dems, implicitly stating that the Dems were the only ones responsible for its passing, and assuming the healthcare system is a resounding success? Obama would have secured his place in history books almost by default, and the Republicans would have to deal with the fallout of not supporting essentially a great progressive idea for decades. Of course this is hypothetical, but if I had a fucking legislative majority as well as the top executive seats, Id rather risk failing utterly and completely because I was unwavering in my stance, rather than suffer a complete failure because I was sucking off the opposition. Its almost sickening really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Im starting to think all those people that voted for Obama didn't know he was a centrist democrat who leans to the right fixed i am horrified that anybody who would call themselves liberal, democrat, or anything similar would be for a mandatory health insurance law that if you do not buy private insurance you get fined. how exactly is that designed to help poor uninsured people again? i thought that was the whole point It's definitely really interesting though to see Obama loyalists defending these types of policies. if George Bush made a law where people would have to buy health insurance the same people would be pretty upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 more shit like this happens the more i am completely convinced that the US government has been nothing but a con-job for the past century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i really liked obama's original health care plan. you mean single payeR? because i have a hard time figuring out what plan he actually believes in it's changed so much over time. first it was single payer, then it was public option, now its fining poor people for not buying health insurance from a private company more shit like this happens the more i am completely convinced that the US government has been nothing but a con-job for the past century. is watmm ready to talk about alternate historical points of view of WWII now (pearl harbor foreknowledge, dresden, american industrialists funding hitler)? i remember last time i tried it in here i got my ass kicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EDGEY Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 well EDGEY, if they just had single payer we wouldn't have this problem, but noooooo thats communism. This is the COMPROMISE we've been left with because the right wrong assholes are lunatics Don't lump me with the lunatic "zomg this is communism" people. I have a legitimate reason for thinking this reform bill is shit. The direct financial impact on my life is the primary reason. As for compromise... it comes from two willing parties, I'm not willing. This states line theory I don't think would work. I think you would get price fixing. Just like gas stations price fix. Or garages price fix for things like getting your car inspected. I think you would still never know if you are covered for illness too as some fly by night insurance company could drop you if they don't like your current health situation. So your opposition to a cross-state-lines policy bill is... it's a conspiracy? Some of us that oppose *this* healthcare reform have valid legitimate reasons. (Financial for me, primarily) how come the rest of the world manages to afford it just fine? The rest of the world doesn't eat deep fried twinkies wrapped in squeeze bacon covered in high fructose corn syrup... Not my responsibilty to fit the bill via taxation to cover these people. yeah, if we were more open minded and not so scared of the government running some things, like oh, the VA hospitals or medicare we might have got a really good single payer plan. When you bring up medicare being a national health care system to conservatives the only argument they have is they "payed into it"..Well, some people payed more and some people payed less. A lot less and everyone gets the same care. That is socialism and they love it and they defend it. You ever been treated at a VA hospital? No thank you. I had a 3" hairline fracture in my ankle while I was in the military, I was refused a full ankle cast because my injury didn't warrant the cost. I walked around on a broken ankle for 2 months complaining about pain, after 2 months, they FINALLY justified the cost of an xray. I never got a cast put on my broken ankle - again, the injury didn't warrant the cost. As for medicare/medicaid - I don't want to pay for that either (same reason as above). I don't want the government involved in my private life - and I certaintly don't want them sending me an extra bill to pay for health insurance because we as a nation are .. unhealthy. now its fining poor people for not buying health insurance from a private company EXACTLY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Im starting to think all those people that voted for Obama didn't know he was a centrist democrat who leans to the right fixed i am horrified that anybody who would call themselves liberal, democrat, or anything similar would be for a mandatory health insurance law that if you do not buy private insurance you get fined. how exactly is that designed to help poor uninsured people again? i thought that was the whole point It's definitely really interesting though to see Obama loyalists defending these types of policies. if George Bush made a law where people would have to buy health insurance the same people would be pretty upset. A true democrat wouldn't get elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i really liked obama's original health care plan. you mean single payeR? because i have a hard time figuring out what plan he actually believes in it's changed so much over time. first it was single payer, then it was public option, now its fining poor people for not buying health insurance from a private company more shit like this happens the more i am completely convinced that the US government has been nothing but a con-job for the past century. is watmm ready to talk about alternate historical points of view of WWII now (pearl harbor foreknowledge, dresden, american industrialists funding hitler)? i remember last time i tried it in here i got my ass kicked you got your ass kicked? that's retarded. Foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack isn't an "alternate viewpoint", its fucking TRUE. theres evidence for it. what have ye got to say about dresden though? Involving the bombing I'm assuming? Industrialists funding Hitler....Prescott Bush for one, for fucks sake the Pope was a Nazi collaborator...how is this so far-fetched if there is documentation of it? Im starting to think all those people that voted for Obama didn't know he was a centrist democrat who leans to the right fixed i am horrified that anybody who would call themselves liberal, democrat, or anything similar would be for a mandatory health insurance law that if you do not buy private insurance you get fined. how exactly is that designed to help poor uninsured people again? i thought that was the whole point It's definitely really interesting though to see Obama loyalists defending these types of policies. if George Bush made a law where people would have to buy health insurance the same people would be pretty upset. A true anything wouldn't get elected. fixt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i mean if what MArf is basically saying is that the only Democrat that could get elected is that one that subscribes to neo-conservatisim (premptive wars of of aggression to fight terrorists, global 'peace' through the barrel of a gun, indefinite detention), then yes our country is deeply and irreparably fucked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Im starting to think all those people that voted for Obama didn't know he was a centrist democrat who leans to the right fixed i am horrified that anybody who would call themselves liberal, democrat, or anything similar would be for a mandatory health insurance law that if you do not buy private insurance you get fined. how exactly is that designed to help poor uninsured people again? i thought that was the whole point It's definitely really interesting though to see Obama loyalists defending these types of policies. if George Bush made a law where people would have to buy health insurance the same people would be pretty upset. I agree with you. When I heard this I thought it must have been interpreted wrong. Cause when you make less than 17 k a year you usually get all your taxes back anyway. That is what you get with a watered down idea I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Rush Limbaugh yesterday had a rare moment of truth break through in his show you know how most of the time republican talk show hosts keep up this fake line of 'the Obama care plan is radically left wing socialist' ? well a vetern called Rush a few days ago and said 'I thought the whole point of the Obama care plan was to help the uninsured, but if they are finining people who don't buy private health insurance how is that going to help the uninsured?' Rush then seemed to turn into a different 'character' on his show, one that actually knew the truth and he responded 'well see that's the whole trick, they tug on the heart strings by proposing something humanitarian, but in reality the law will actually line the pockets of private corporations' It was the only time i've listened to his show where he turned off the fake character of republican talking point machine and actually said something accurate edit: in fact most of the people i've mentioned this to literally do not believe me. A good friend of mine stayed here on Christmas who supported the healthcare bill and i mentioned to him this 'fine' that will hapenn via the IRS if you don't buy a private plan. He looked at me in total disbelief and i had to show him like 5 news articles online about it before i convinced him it was true sorry if im coming off spiteful in this discussion, i'm at my wit's end with people who have been loyal to obama regardless of his policies. I've watched a great deal of people i know be on sedatives for the past year and its beyond disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 its a dumb idea. Didnt hillary want to make it madatory for companies to cover all employees? Thats pretty dumb too as some companies simply can't afford it. There are lots of good working examples around the world we could implement. It would also be nice to implement a little regulation on junk food too. Why doesn't the rest of the world eat deep fried twinkies wrapped in squeeze bacon covered in high fructose corn syrup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 i agree with ya awe, and I even foretold this happening when I was in DC election night. I remember Obama winning and everyone got really pumped, so we drove with a video camera down to PA Ave. where a ton of people were celebrating in the streets. But it wasn't a celebration I naively expected, one with civility and actual celebration for the victory of ideas. What I got instead were people jumping on police cars screaming "Change!" like they were somehow aiding the revolution by briefly giving the middle finger to overburdened police. I kept thinking to myself, "Ok, I guess you all can say that you won, now who is ready to get down to business?" And I'm still wondering if the people that voted for him ever considered the same line of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EDGEY Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Rush Limbaugh yesterday had a rare moment of truth break through in his show you know how most of the time republican talk show hosts keep up this fake line of 'the Obama care plan is radically left wing socialist' ? well a vetern called Rush a few days ago and said 'I thought the whole point of the Obama care plan was to help the uninsured, but if they are finining people who don't buy private health insurance how is that going to help the uninsured?' Rush then seemed to turn into a different 'character' on his show, one that actually knew the truth and he responded 'well see that's the whole trick, they tug on the heart strings by proposing something humanitarian, but in reality the law will actually line the pockets of private corporations' It was the only time i've listened to his show where he turned off the fake character of republican talking point machine and actually said something accurate edit: in fact most of the people i've mentioned this to literally do not believe me. A good friend of mine stayed here on Christmas who supported the healthcare bill and i mentioned to him this 'fine' that will hapenn via the IRS if you don't buy a private plan. He looked at me in total disbelief and i had to show him like 5 news articles online about it before i convinced him it was true sorry if im coming off spiteful in this discussion, i'm at my wit's end with people who have been loyal to obama regardless of his policies. I've watched a great deal of people i know be on sedatives for the past year and its beyond disturbing. Exactly. If you really look into it, you'll find it will burden the middle class and the poor (who have more in common than the middle class and the wealthy) than anything else. The goal to supply healthcare to those who can't afford is a sham... It's a tax. It's a levy. It's a fine. Call it whatever you want. It's IRS revenue. Fining people via taxation for not having private health insurance? Come on... And with the new supreme court decision - we'll be seeing "The 2012 election brought to you by AIG", and "This commercial break brought to you by The Mandatory Insurance Commission". I remember the day he got elected, I jokingly said "He's in - where's my healthcare?". We all laughed. I followed it up with, "I mean, when do I get the bill for my new healthcare". LO... Dead pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 agreed. the thing that disturbs me more though is that the dems somehow failed to get this pushed through. ive come to accept that anything introduced in Congress is usually created to fuck over the middle and lower classes, so I knew this was coming, but how did they fucking fail to push it through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EDGEY Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 agreed. the thing that disturbs me more though is that the dems somehow failed to get this pushed through. ive come to accept that anything introduced in Congress is usually created to fuck over the middle and lower classes, so I knew this was coming, but how did they fucking fail to push it through? Bush would've done it - lol (but there wasn't any oil involved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 They must have got this mandatory purchase for insurance idea from the switzerland plan, they are non profit companies in switzerland though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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