IDF have told The Times they expect to invade Gaza this weekend.

[awepittance]

I don't even know what to say to that Compson, to me continually bringing up the 'Palestinians use children as human shields' talking point is akin to saying that Iraqi's are savages because 'these people cut peoples heads off'. It's honing in a very emotionally charged issue by design. IF you want to have more rational discussion i just think you should stop brining into the discussion stuff like that.

 

a good start would be Israel stopping provoking situations and then acting all ignorant about it after the fact. It's the same bullshit the united states pulls whenever we get drawn into conflict. To assume that Israel is acting in purely self defense would be a complete over simplification of how this new conflict started. Since you seem to like doing a lot of research about this topic, try finding stuff about how the conflict started and what documented things Israel was involved in that might have been a contributing factor in the first place. And no i don't just mean walling your population into a giant ghetto, i mean covert IDF actions.

[brian trageskin]

what needs to be revised about the official thesis of the holocaust?

 

there are plenty, and I mean plenty of academic interpretations and new analyses and critiques of the Holocaust. what isn't allowed (and honestly shouldn't be allowed) is writing that denies the Holocaust, a different beast altogether.

 

I don't know what you feel needs to be "revised" about the Holocaust.

 

I'm still waiting for what needs to be publicized on french TV about the zionist. And specifically speaking. Complaining that there aren't outcries concerning some global zionist conspiracy (while perhaps legitimate) is clearly something no media publication is gonna want to tout too heavily for it would be a baseless allegation.

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened. no one denies the fact that lots of jews died in concentration camps. again, from a french point of view, i just think that anyone should be allowed to make historical research freely on that topic, and publicize it, but in france the topic is locked, it's a forbidden zone. you don't have the right to doubt publicly of the official thesis on the holocaust and law punishes it. which,to me, is weird in a so-called democracy.

to answer compson, i personnaly don't know what specifically needs to be publicized about zionists on french tv. my knowledge on the matter is too limited. i just find it absurd and suspicious that in france, everytime a person openly criticizes the actions of some jews or pro-israeli people, he gets the same treatment, which i described in a previous post.

and personnally, if conspiracy there is, i already said i think that zionists are only part of a bigger conspiracy, no i don't think they're the masters of the universe, they only want to have the biggest piece of cake they can, like the other lobbies. this rothschild dude is quite suspicious though haha

[awepittance]

here is a pretty thorough timeline of events, but ill find one that gives a more clear picture of what happened before late October, this new conflict didn't just arise out of nothing

 

http://electronicint...ragedy-timeline

[syd syside]

I don't even know what to say to that Compson, to me continually bringing up the 'Palestinians use children as human shields' talking point is akin to saying that Iraqi's are savages because 'these people cut peoples heads off'. It's honing in a very emotionally charged issue by design. IF you want to have more rational discussion i just think you should stop brining into the discussion stuff like that.

 

a good start would be Israel stopping provoking situations and then acting all ignorant about it after the fact. It's the same bullshit the united states pulls whenever we get drawn into conflict. To assume that Israel is acting in purely self defense would be a complete over simplification of how this new conflict started. Since you seem to like doing a lot of research about this topic, try finding stuff about how the conflict started and what documented things Israel was involved in that might have been a contributing factor in the first place. And no i don't just mean walling your population into a giant ghetto, i mean covert IDF actions.

 

I bring it up because people like to paint Israel as demonic because of the death tolls. But when Hamas strategically uses innocent lives as shields that should also be entered into the equation of those deaths. And why did you quote "Palestinians" when clearly I said "Hamas" ... two completely different things.

 

I'm willing and open to any information posted in this thread. What I don't appreciate is broad strokes that attempt to demonize a perspective. Palestinians should be protesting against Hamas because violence is not the answer. Just because Hamas is less capable of inflicting damage on Israel does not make their intent less dangerous. And frankly I don't think any countries should be developing nuclear weapons and the US/West should eliminate their arsenal completely. So while its hypocritical to not allow Iran to have weapons, they should also refrain from suggesting the destruction of Israel / America.

[Alcofribas]

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

[syd syside]

what needs to be revised about the official thesis of the holocaust?

 

there are plenty, and I mean plenty of academic interpretations and new analyses and critiques of the Holocaust. what isn't allowed (and honestly shouldn't be allowed) is writing that denies the Holocaust, a different beast altogether.

 

I don't know what you feel needs to be "revised" about the Holocaust.

 

I'm still waiting for what needs to be publicized on french TV about the zionist. And specifically speaking. Complaining that there aren't outcries concerning some global zionist conspiracy (while perhaps legitimate) is clearly something no media publication is gonna want to tout too heavily for it would be a baseless allegation.

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened. no one denies the fact that lots of jews died in concentration camps. again, from a french point of view, i just think that anyone should be allowed to make historical research freely on that topic, and publicize it, but in france the topic is locked, it's a forbidden zone. you don't have the right to doubt publicly of the official thesis on the holocaust and law punishes it. which,to me, is weird in a so-called democracy.

to answer compson, i personnaly don't know what specifically needs to be publicized about zionists on french tv. my knowledge on the matter is too limited. i just find it absurd and suspicious that in france, everytime a person openly criticizes the actions of some jews or pro-israeli people, he gets the same treatment, which i described in a previous post.

and personnally, if conspiracy there is, i already said i think that zionists are only part of a bigger conspiracy, no i don't think they're the masters of the universe, they only want to have the biggest piece of cake they can, like the other lobbies. this rothschild dude is quite suspicious though haha

 

Rothschild is definitely suspicious and I do also find it odd about being fine/imprisoned for questioning the holocaust. But I also can understand why media/journalist outlets would not want to propose such ideas because generally there is little evidence to support such ideas (that I have seen). I'm all for more investigations into elites and their control over global politics. But if you want to actually encourage more investigations its better to not make assumptions and rely too heavily on conspiracy. Because what happens is you will shift other independent issues to mold nicely into your theory and eventually your house of cards will fall. Losing any reputation or clout you may have had.

[Alcofribas]

and your complete disregard of the actual deaths of innocent palestinian children in this offensive is disturbing.

 

and it sort of eerily ties into some of Compson's rebuttals to why the unrestrained war on terror is inherently wrong also, that once you dehumanize muslim arabs even just a little bit more than other human beings it's a slippery slope.

 

Hamas are responsible for insisting on an armed uprising against Israel (ALL of Israel) which is a regional super-power.

 

Using tactics such as this:

 

 

Now I know none of you are supportive of this. That's logical. Where things get hazy is when it comes down to what Israel should do to defend themselves. What is also hazy is what can become agreeable to both parties.

 

here compson, you'll like these pics:

 

 

http://bubbamuntzer.blogspot.com/2010/12/tomb-in-israel-second-anniversary-of.html

 

[syd syside]

compson, the idf has a pretty grim record using palestinians as human shields. are you not aware of this or are you ignoring it because you think it's ok when they do it?

 

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

 

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

 

That tactic has been banned in Israel for quite some time. Only the cowardly terrorists use it nowadays, shooting from civilian population and defending themselves with children.

[syd syside]

 

here compson, you'll like these pics:

 

 

http://bubbamuntzer....versary-of.html

 

 

As I said human shields have been banned for quite some time, so again trying to equate Israel with rogue terrorist activities is a bit silly considering the intent. Israel is trying to prevent further attacks, while Hamas is trying to encourage further attacks. And again what exactly should Israel do? Unlike the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel is facing real attacks on their state. To suggest they should do nothing about it seems a bit unrealistic.

[Alcofribas]

Those are Israeli children signing bombs compson.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2006/jul/20/missilespostin

[syd syside]

Those are Israeli children signing bombs compson.

 

Which is the same as keeping children stationed by your military operations so that when Israel responds it kills innocent children. Ever think those kids parents died from attacks? Not that I think that kind of behavior is admirable or anything but its hardly the same thing.

[Alcofribas]

i'm sure you'd say the same thing if those were palestinians signing messages on rockets being shot into israel.

 

[sweepstakes]

Can we stop using words like cowardly and talking about killing kids and shit? The maps tell the story, do you think you would be so righteous if you were squeezed in that tight? You and I don't know what that desperation feels like.

[Alcofribas]

spoken like a true coward

[sweepstakes]

How so?

[Alcofribas]

just kidding dude

[sweepstakes]

Oh

 

 

Everyone was all pissed off and serious so I thought I'd finally join in the "fun"

 

:/

[Alcofribas]

lol

 

i'm sure if compson posts again i'll get pissed so stay tuned

[sweepstakes]

sa-weeeet

[syd syside]

i'm sure you'd say the same thing if those were palestinians signing messages on rockets being shot into israel.

 

 

Yep

[Alcofribas]

ouch pwnt

[SR4]

what needs to be revised about the official thesis of the holocaust?

 

there are plenty, and I mean plenty of academic interpretations and new analyses and critiques of the Holocaust. what isn't allowed (and honestly shouldn't be allowed) is writing that denies the Holocaust, a different beast altogether.

 

I don't know what you feel needs to be "revised" about the Holocaust.

 

I'm still waiting for what needs to be publicized on french TV about the zionist. And specifically speaking. Complaining that there aren't outcries concerning some global zionist conspiracy (while perhaps legitimate) is clearly something no media publication is gonna want to tout too heavily for it would be a baseless allegation.

 

well, plenty of people are having doubts on the reasons why jews died in concentration camps and the circumstances of how that happened. no one denies the fact that lots of jews died in concentration camps. again, from a french point of view, i just think that anyone should be allowed to make historical research freely on that topic, and publicize it, but in france the topic is locked, it's a forbidden zone. you don't have the right to doubt publicly of the official thesis on the holocaust and law punishes it. which,to me, is weird in a so-called democracy.

to answer compson, i personnaly don't know what specifically needs to be publicized about zionists on french tv. my knowledge on the matter is too limited. i just find it absurd and suspicious that in france, everytime a person openly criticizes the actions of some jews or pro-israeli people, he gets the same treatment, which i described in a previous post.

and personnally, if conspiracy there is, i already said i think that zionists are only part of a bigger conspiracy, no i don't think they're the masters of the universe, they only want to have the biggest piece of cake they can, like the other lobbies. this rothschild dude is quite suspicious though haha

 

what......

 

what?

 

what are the reasons jews were sent to the concentration camps that hasn't been reported or addressed? i'd love to hear this bombshell.

[syd syside]

Can we stop using words like cowardly and talking about killing kids and shit? The maps tell the story, do you think you would be so righteous if you were squeezed in that tight? You and I don't know what that desperation feels like.

 

Of course the circumstances that led to such radical behavior is the reason for the radical behavior. The assumption that I am saying their skin color or genetics makes them cowardly or aggressive is incorrect. But just as with the civil rights movement, progress was made through peaceful protesting and strong support of peaceful leadership. Hamas is not this and I am in right to call that as it is. By ignoring this side of the equation and suggesting its all on Israel to simply stop defending themselves and give in to any requests will not lead to a peaceful resolution. It will embolden that tactic.

 

This is a sensible summation of my outlook:

 

This is one of those things where there is no right answer.

 

Arab nations went to war against Israel, to wipe out the Jews. This is why so many of the Arabs living in the area left their homes. Most were hoping the Jews would get wiped out, some were actively fighting the Jews, and they planned to move back once the danger was over. Of course, if the Arab nations had won, they were planning on taking over the area from anyone living there (both Jews and Arabs). In fact, during the war some Arab nations did take over various formerly Jewish areas, as the war reshaped boundaries.

 

But Israel won that war. And ever since then they have constantly been on the defensive against further attacks. Meanwhile the Arab nations that started the war in the first place, with the intent of wiping out the Jews and taking over the entire area, now decided to use the Palestinian Arabs as pawns against Israel, electing to take over certain areas they wanted but also to leave small pockets as poor refugee camps.

 

And there lies the problem, because no matter how justified Israel has been to defend itself, and no matter how wrong the Arab nations were to attempt to eliminate the Jews and take over the land, and no matter how many Arabs living in the area not only failed to help defend it but hoped for and assisted in attacking Israel, and no matter how wrong it was for the Arab states to then purposely leave strategic areas as refugee camps when they failed to win everything, and no matter that borders changed in both directions during the war (Arab states gaining ground some places, Israel in others), nevertheless Palestine is a human rights nightmare and those living there have historic roots in Israel-occupied land, which means Israel is withholding aid from a suffering people who have a decent argument for it.

[syd syside]

Interesting video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rch7vUxJX7w

 

Where's eugene btw? I would like to get some updates on if he thinks this is gonna escalate or cease fire soon.

[eugene]

cease fire very soon, unless again, something really bad happens that'll turn the tables