eugene Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 the DX uses an extremely good dac chip (CS4398) that's put on ~1000$ external dacs (like this one, for example: http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZDAC1.html). so if you have some cash allocated to it you better use it to get better speakers as this is the most important element. as you see i'm contradicting murphythecat8 but i just can't be arsed in continuing this argument atm. if you're really interested in getting into this seriously you should check the relevant threads on avs, gearslutz, headfi and so on. but anyway, have a look at this article: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html they compare a range of dacs from onboard soundcards to super expensive external ones and blind test them, the results are interesting to say the least :) the article is pure shit. ''As long as the content arrives to the DAC in a bit-perfect state, the source really doesn't matter. A quality CD-player or a PC playing a bit-perfect stream over USB should sound the same.'' Ths is beyond ridiculous statement. This is exactly the type of article that you should be smart enough to double check. But you know what, your the one missing out. Have you missed the part Ive said Ive had around 7 dacs, I did many blind test of course with my GF and friend, and they all sound different. You can find those type of ridiculous article for anything really. They are false. Have you notice how theres no quote, no reference. this is a ignorant dude writing this for ignorant dude who doesnt want to reasearch deeper then this. You can find many many many thread at head fi, audiokarma, everywhere really where people compare many dacs and always note difference. Not subtle difference at all either. Those article are just pure BS. this quote is absolutely correct and if you don't get it there's something wrong on your end bro. if the particular bit of audio is digitally 101010 and that's what gets to the dac then it really doesn't matter, if what gets to the dac is 11111 instead of 101010, then there's something wrong. they're not talking about the conversion to analog at that point. it doesn't matter if you tested 20 dacs, it's not even an argument, of course they'll sound different in some way or another and the properties of sound that some of them produce may sound better to you, that's all. it doesn't mean they're better objectively (ie reproduce with utmost accuracy the audio that was digitally encoded). if you frequent those sites i mentioned you should know that they'd laugh about a statement like yours because it's meaningless in a scientific sense when talking about audio quality. what reference does that article need? they're doing everything by themselves. and again, no one's talking about difference (the testers in that article also heard differences), but perceivable improvement in quality. sonic difference doesn't imply difference in quality, because maybe you like bass and bassy equipment simply sounds better to you and you consider it superior quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 the DX uses an extremely good dac chip (CS4398) that's put on ~1000$ external dacs (like this one, for example: http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZDAC1.html). so if you have some cash allocated to it you better use it to get better speakers as this is the most important element. as you see i'm contradicting murphythecat8 but i just can't be arsed in continuing this argument atm. if you're really interested in getting into this seriously you should check the relevant threads on avs, gearslutz, headfi and so on. but anyway, have a look at this article: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html they compare a range of dacs from onboard soundcards to super expensive external ones and blind test them, the results are interesting to say the least :) the article is pure shit. ''As long as the content arrives to the DAC in a bit-perfect state, the source really doesn't matter. A quality CD-player or a PC playing a bit-perfect stream over USB should sound the same.'' Ths is beyond ridiculous statement. This is exactly the type of article that you should be smart enough to double check. But you know what, your the one missing out. Have you missed the part Ive said Ive had around 7 dacs, I did many blind test of course with my GF and friend, and they all sound different. You can find those type of ridiculous article for anything really. They are false. Have you notice how theres no quote, no reference. this is a ignorant dude writing this for ignorant dude who doesnt want to reasearch deeper then this. You can find many many many thread at head fi, audiokarma, everywhere really where people compare many dacs and always note difference. Not subtle difference at all either. Those article are just pure BS. this quote is absolutely correct and if you don't get it there's something wrong on your end bro. if the particular bit of audio is digitally 101010 and that's what gets to the dac then it really doesn't matter, if what gets to the dac is 11111 instead of 101010, then there's something wrong. they're not talking about the conversion to analog at that point. it doesn't matter if you tested 20 dacs, it's not even an argument, of course they'll sound different in some way or another and the properties of sound that some of them produce may sound better to you, that's all. it doesn't mean they're better objectively (ie reproduce with utmost accuracy the audio that was digitally encoded). if you frequent those sites i mentioned you should know that they'd laugh about a statement like yours because it's meaningless in a scientific sense when talking about audio quality. what reference does that article need? they're doing everything by themselves. and again, no one's talking about difference (the testers in that article also heard differences), but perceivable improvement in quality. sonic difference doesn't imply difference in quality, because maybe you like bass and bassy equipment simply sounds better to you and you consider it superior quality. Your the one missing out. I guess, when you really care enough about this, like I did. I actually went and tested for myself. I debuted with a musical V dac, then got a buffalo dac. right away, its a world of difference in sound quality. I have then got another cheap dac like the V dac, the HRT ms 2 adn agin it sounded different then the buffalo and the v dac. the sound is definitly less good then the buffalo, but I need another cheap dac. I use now a ecdesign sd player, and the improvment is incredible over the buffalo. if I compare the ec design to the HRT, within 2 seconds, you hear improvent all over the spectrum, quite clearly. You are right about the quote, but that quote is just stupid, as to be able to verify if indeed, perfect bit will sound the same, no matter the source, you have to use the anlog part of the dac. I know your type of users, we see your type on diyaudio, or techtalk forum or audiokarma. A biased pinion based on theory rather then actual testing and experience. You clearly have no experience with different dac and try to defend your opinion based on scientific measurments. However, anybody who actually build a dac, Im a diyer, any designer and anyone who compared different dac will tell you that measurments and audio quality do not relate and its not because your dac measures well that it sounds good, and vice versa. Especially with dac or amps, the will all measures extremely well, yet will sound totally different. measurments are not the only gauge for sound quality, but your type will even argue with that. I have no other time to try to convince someone of what is my experience. and if you were with me in my room, we wouldnt have this discussioin as within minutes, all your stupid arguments and preconsemption and biased opinion would be useless, you would simply smile and see right away that yes, theres significant difference in sound quality within different DAC. AVS forum is not really the best forum for serious audiophile anyways. they recommed speakers I wouldnt even touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 it doesn't matter if you tested 20 dacs, it's not even an argument, of course they'll sound different in some way or another and the properties of sound that some of them produce may sound better to you, that's all. it doesn't mean they're better objectively (ie reproduce with utmost accuracy the audio that was digitally encoded). if you frequent those sites i mentioned you should know that they'd laugh about a statement like yours because it's meaningless in a scientific sense when talking about audio quality. do yourself some service and go listen for yourself, just do. no more talking, no more bla bla boubouh they all sound the same bullshit, go and listen for yourself. nobody and no one will be able to convince you at this point and this discussion is irrelevant as it is irrelevant: everybody who compare dac will note differences. For example, you will often see some people say. I have compared DAC X and DAC Z. I like DAC x better then DAC Z, and 9 out of 10 people that did the test prefered DAC x and considered dac x as being better then DAC z. isnt that enough to tell you that some dacs may be better then others? What argument can I say exactly that could convince you, you probably voluntarely discard any subjective test. well sorry dude, but every experience is subjective and well, listening to music is subjective. but when 9 people out of 10 all prefer DAC X to DAC Z, this should be enough to raise some question in your head. but not for your ype. your so biased and wish to be right, that you will dismiss any subjective experience. enjoy men, its your reality after all. yes, dac all sound the same! dont worry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 but i never said that there's no difference in sounding, so you're arguing with a strawman at this point, i said that's it's very hard to conclude what is better sounding and that differences are usually insignificant after you pass a certain threshold (~150$ imo). there's almost never a consensus on what is better, maybe only if you compare some 5$ dac vs 1500$ one or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 but i never said that there's no difference in sounding, so you're arguing with a strawman at this point, i said that's it's very hard to conclude what is better sounding and that differences are usually insignificant after you pass a certain threshold (~150$ imo). there's almost never a consensus on what is better, maybe only if you compare some 5$ dac vs 1500$ one or something. oh... lol Well, I seem to be able to make a consesnsus on which dac I prefer over all the dac I have had ans so do my girfriend and friends. we all agree that so far, the ecdesign sd player is the best, by a large margin. You can find huge thread at head fi doing shoot out of 30 something dac and ranked them in a order. that seems like a consensus to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-57507-epos-epic-2-bookshelf-speakers-pr.aspx in op price range. could be a great option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baph Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Head-Fi can be fucking dire, though; I could almost guarantee you that if you start a rumor, phrased convincingly enough, that X-device sounds "veiled" you will have 100 head-fiers parroting that back as gospel within a month, allegedly due to their own independent analysis. It's like the world's most obnoxious confirmation bias echo chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 ah yes, the infamously "veiled" sennheiser hd650 that you need some multi million dollar headphone amps to properly neutralize that veil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 lol. anyways, get some good quality cables, sink at least 50% of the money total into that. Good cables can save even the most mediocre setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 ah yes, the infamously "veiled" sennheiser hd650 that you need some multi million dollar headphone amps to properly neutralize that veil. lol, I use sens hd 650 with a ifi ican. sound is glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avarik Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 lol. anyways, get some good quality cables, sink at least 50% of the money total into that. Good cables can save even the most mediocre setup. What cables do you use? I should have known better than to spark up this topic of eternal conflict sorry guyz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphythecat8 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 lol. anyways, get some good quality cables, sink at least 50% of the money total into that. Good cables can save even the most mediocre setup. What cables do you use? I should have known better than to spark up this topic of eternal conflict sorry guyz I think gocab was joking though. cable marketing is bullshit. do not fall for this. thick copper is all you need. Ive blind tested various IC, some made with silver and costing upward of 100$. the 1$ IC from dollorama did the same job and sounded the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 yeah, don't waste money on cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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