born-rich people

[elusive4]

sorry chengod, all the sideways tangents in the world still doesn't make up for the fact that people are not entitled to a home, and especially not entitled to a home during a bubble because "a family needs to be building equity". and cute that you assume that someone investing would indeed be investing in such mortgage-backed securities,, let alone 100%. ha.

 

i already stated i agree with you many pages back regarding the ratings agencies, and how the crisis unfolded - and that that was tangent. people were caught up buying homes they shouldn't have been - and that they couldn't afford. period. no matter what 'the going rate is' in your state/city/etc, just becasuse you feel you and your family need to be building equity doesn't mean you should be purchasing a home if you feel the market is still inflated. many were flipping homes again and again and then the music stopped and they got fucked.

 

funny you completely leave out all of the folks taking out home equity loans every 6months as their home value increased, and used that money to fund vacations, shopping sprees, cars, etc.

 

 

"When you're in a bubble and you want stability you don't have a choice."

 

bullshit bullshit bullshit. dont have a choice. lol. sounds like some kind of statement a sleazy banker would be using to sell me something.

 

my mom was pushing me right out of college to purchase something because home prices just kept going up and going up and "if i waited any longer i wasn't going to be able to afford anything". good thing i fucking knew better.

[chenGOD]

sorry chengod, all the sideways tangents in the world still doesn't make up for the fact that people are not entitled to a home

 

Woah - you don't think people have a right to shelter? Damn dude - even my most hardcore free market profs aren't that heartless.

[GORDO]

it's in the freaking human rights declaration.

[sneaksta303]

sorry chengod, all the sideways tangents in the world still doesn't make up for the fact that people are not entitled to a home

 

Woah - you don't think people have a right to shelter? Damn dude - even my most hardcore free market profs aren't that heartless.

that's not what he means and you know it.

[chenGOD]

sorry chengod, all the sideways tangents in the world still doesn't make up for the fact that people are not entitled to a home

 

Woah - you don't think people have a right to shelter? Damn dude - even my most hardcore free market profs aren't that heartless.

that's not what he means and you know it.

A) elusive seems like a pretty intelligent guy, I don't think he needs you white-knighting for him.

B) That was a pretty unambiguous direct statement.

C) If that's not what he means, he should say what he means and mean what he says.

 

 

 

you assume that someone investing would indeed be investing in such mortgage-backed securities,, let alone 100%. ha.

 

I don't assume anything - many many many investors went in heavy on mortgage-backed securities. Now obviously no one should go in 100% on any kind of tradeable asset but some people lost a lot of money investing in these because they were lied to. This was not just limited to Americans either - it was international

 

Now - I'm sure that anyone else who's bothering reading this thread is going "what the fuck are these two assholes talking about mortgage crises for?" This is related to the topic of being born-rich because even though not all people who are rich take advantage of it, they are usually more aware to falling into predatory traps like refinancing when you shouldn't simply because they have access to higher education more easily than poor people, have access to lawyers or financial advisors, and have access to more capital. Additionally, if they do make a stupid decision, it doesn't hurt them nearly as much as it does poor people. Society and one's socioeconomic status (SES) play a large role in our actions whether we are aware of it or not. I don't believe that everything is about society otherwise you would never hear of those "rags-to-riches" stories. However the effect of society on an individual is pretty impossible to deny.

 

So anyways elusive, as I said before, until you bring something new to the discussion beyond "people should always be rational" then you have no real argument (because no one is rational all the time, not even you).

[GORDO]

ChenGOD stop going off on tangents such as directly addressing and countering his claims.

[delet...]

Reflects in the glory of the one ... chenGOD. Also, still haven't gotten my google+ thingoe through damnit.

[GORDO]

just realized this fits here too

 

[delet...]

I saw a stat about 4 years ago that showed that over time in the US that most families rise and fall in wealth. Except the very rich, that hang on to their money generation after generation. This isn't a comment about the born rich, who of course do have more advantages than their less wealthy peers, even though over generations some of their offspring will fall down regardless. This is a comment that once you pass a certain threshold, the mechanisms in place to keep you wealthy generally override everything else, from intellect to happenstance. No matter how deeply you're missing that competitive edge you'll still retain or rise (see george bush jr).

[elusive4]

but I've never invested in the stock market (worse than a casino, at least with poker if you know how to play you can generally make some money),

 

good luck building wealth such that you could then one day pass down to children so they could be born-rich people and actually have a purpose in life such as to be discussed in a thread like this.

 

im not sure how one plans to build wealth by not being in the stock market. at least for income investing/dividends, etc. you're out of your fucking mind.

another reason the middle class is fucked. no retirement savings, scared as shit about the stock market because they are so fucking pussy they wait until the market is at a top before they feel 'comfortable' getting in . then shit crashes. they are weak, and thus scared and as such sell at the bottom like fcktards. after the burning stops, then they vow never to invest in the stock market again. brilliant.

 

it's stupid how many people i personally know who are not saving for retirement; especially at young age and thus the endless powers of compound interest or dividend reinvestments. they gave the middle class the greatest savings tool of all time (roth ira), and i can count on my fingers how many people who i know who actually take advantage of it. stupid. this is what's wrong iwth the middle class, as stated about 4 pages ago. they have no idea how to make their money work for them; how to make their monye grow. and instead spend it all on depreciating assets or consumer products.

 

im sorry you just missed one of the greatest opportunities to make money or to build your retirement accounts in your savings vehicles (roth ira, trad ira, 401k, etc).

those who took risks were rewarded handsomely.

 

A) elusive seems like a pretty intelligent guy, I don't think he needs you white-knighting for him.

 

ChenGOD stop going off on tangents such as directly addressing and countering his claims.

 

Reflects in the glory of the one ... chenGOD. Also, still haven't gotten my google+ thingoe through damnit.

[GORDO]

I was mocking your constant appeal to tangent, you use that line a lot, usually to avoid actually answering questions or admitting being wrong.

 

Don't even know what you discussion is about anymore all I can add is that the stock market is thought to be a martingale, so unless you have some inside info, making real money off it is no better than flipping a coin.

 

You're blaming those who took a risk with their mortgages yet blame the middle class for not taking risks in the stock market. Just come out and say that you're full of shit already. Love, GORDO.

[elusive4]

You're blaming those who took a risk with their mortgages yet blame the middle class for not taking risks in the stock market. Just come out and say that you're full of shit already. Love, GORDO.

 

there is a difference between purchasing a home and speculating on a house.

there is a difference between speculating in the stock market and investing.

[GORDO]

not really. uncertainty is uncertain is uncertain.

[elusive4]

not really. uncertainty is uncertain is uncertain.

 

risk. aversion.

[GORDO]

is. expensive.

[elusive4]

good insight, xxx - thanks for sharing. glad those key lessons are now engrained in every decision you make from thereforth.

[chenGOD]

but I've never invested in the stock market (worse than a casino, at least with poker if you know how to play you can generally make some money),

 

good luck building wealth such that you could then one day pass down to children so they could be born-rich people and actually have a purpose in life such as to be discussed in a thread like this.

 

im not sure how one plans to build wealth by not being in the stock market. at least for income investing/dividends, etc. you're out of your fucking mind.

another reason the middle class is fucked. no retirement savings, scared as shit about the stock market because they are so fucking pussy they wait until the market is at a top before they feel 'comfortable' getting in . then shit crashes. they are weak, and thus scared and as such sell at the bottom like fcktards. after the burning stops, then they vow never to invest in the stock market again. brilliant.

 

it's stupid how many people i personally know who are not saving for retirement; especially at young age and thus the endless powers of compound interest or dividend reinvestments. they gave the middle class the greatest savings tool of all time (roth ira), and i can count on my fingers how many people who i know who actually take advantage of it. stupid. this is what's wrong iwth the middle class, as stated about 4 pages ago. they have no idea how to make their money work for them; how to make their monye grow. and instead spend it all on depreciating assets or consumer products.

 

im sorry you just missed one of the greatest opportunities to make money or to build your retirement accounts in your savings vehicles (roth ira, trad ira, 401k, etc).

those who took risks were rewarded handsomely.

 

 

Yeah I put my money in an installment savings account in a bank in korea. the highest rate of return they pay is 4.7%, which crushes the average rate of return from the S&P 500 and the NYSE for the last 10 years. Plus, the money is guaranteed by the government. Additionally, there are no limits on annual contributions.

I gave a few thousand to my dad to invest (he's a fund manager), and it has performed alright, but I've neglected it and returns have been mediocre.

Lots of people have lost lots of money in the stock market.

 

And yes, thank you XXX for providing your valuable insight and proving exactly what I said - smart people do not always act rationally, and the mortgage brokers were huge snakes in the early 2000s. Here's to your future being laden with pillows of cash and mattresses of solid gold covered by Egyptian cotton with the highest thread count possible.

 

You know who's ultra-rich? Mike Myers. Think of the residuals he must make on his flicks. And that's actual cash not stock options. He must have a room like Scrooge McDuck's where he just swims in piles of C-notes.

[joshuatxuk]

Additionally your placing the blame at the feet of the people who got those shitty mortgages is misguided. Place the blame at the feet of the mortgage brokers who lied to the people that they gave mortgages to when they shouldn't have.

My wife and I got caught squarely in this shitstorm. When we were still pups, her dad died and she and her sister received substantial proceeds. We wanted out of apartment hell so we approached U.S. Bank to help us invest and find a house. They made us part of their "Private Client Group" and put us in highback leather thrones in a fancy conference room. I was only 23, fresh out of a science degree and street-stupid. She was only 20 and out of her mind with grief. This was 2004 and the whole Ponzi scheme that broke the world was just getting underway. I'll never forget the pudgy repulsive fucker "Steve" saying "you two would not qualify for a mortgage so we will offer you a line of credit to buy the house that is based on an adjustable rate. Don't worry, it may rise a bit over time but, hey, what choice you got?"The wolfpack had just gotten done telling us we had to be all in on investing so even thought we could have easily dropped cash for a house, we got suckered in to putting the whole shemozzle in a portfolio. The shitty high interest instrument mortgage payment went from around $400 a month to $800 a month in just one year. Thankfully, we told the bank to shove their fucking scheme, liquidated some stock and paid the house off with a single phone call. However, in retrospect, I imagine my wife and I not being able to escape the Faustian bullshit going down and I feel really thankful.I understand all the counterarguments:a)shouldn't be buying a house in the first placeb)no big decisions during griefc)always stay liquid, no eggs-in-one-basketd)do research before you signe)shop several banks/investment outfits for best opinionetc.,etc.,etc.But we were young and green and confused. It was an awful time but it definitely tempered the marriage that came out of it and I'll always be thankful for that heartache. What I learned about the world, money and power is that the people with the most means make it their lifetime, night-and-day goal to "reallocate resources" the best they can aka steal on a nigga and be out the door before he even know it. Behind every great fortune is a great crime. This malarkey of America being built on aw-shucks, honest-to-God hard-working small business owners is a farce.

 

 

But, you know, fuck it. Just live. Are you getting pussy, is your belly full, do you have some good tunes, can you afford the odd drink and toke, do you have at least one mate, do you love your family, maybe a dog or a cat to worship you, have your mind,????? Shit, if you say yes to one of those...you could be richer than you know.

 

Thanks for sharing xxx. It's really hard to blame consumers before the recession because this country isn't remotely literate in regards to finance. It's a bit criminal that even basic financing skills aren't taught in primary education. I regularly bud heads with my dad over politics and economic policy but we ourselves agreeing that banks don't regulate enough lending, and he'll often mention how much harder it was to purchase a house back in the early 90s. Yet...he'll contradict himself by saying "the government" should be less involved. Honest truth is a lot of hard-working, intelligent people were duped and fucked over when it came to the housing market.

 

You know who's ultra-rich? Mike Myers. Think of the residuals he must make on his flicks. And that's actual cash not stock options. He must have a room like Scrooge McDuck's where he just swims in piles of C-notes.

 

I loved that guy on SNL and his old movies and that's just shitty to think about. The last decade of his career has been just awful (and I actually didn't mind the first Shrek sequel either) but easily his most profitable. Such a waste of talent. I have no reason to think he'llmake up for it either.

[elusive4]

Yeah I put my money in an installment savings account in a bank in korea. the highest rate of return they pay is 4.7%, which crushes the average rate of return from the S&P 500 and the NYSE for the last 10 years. Plus, the money is guaranteed by the government. Additionally, there are no limits on annual contributions.

I gave a few thousand to my dad to invest (he's a fund manager), and it has performed alright, but I've neglected it and returns have been mediocre.

Lots of people have lost lots of money in the stock market.

 

And yes, thank you XXX for providing your valuable insight and proving exactly what I said - smart people do not always act rationally, and the mortgage brokers were huge snakes in the early 2000s. Here's to your future being laden with pillows of cash and mattresses of solid gold covered by Egyptian cotton with the highest thread count possible.

 

 

4+% is great for a low-risk savings account. are you betting your financial future that that interest rate won't decrease? the question one needs to ask is are those returns enough to satisfy one's retirement goals? and once in retirement, will 4% return be satisfactory for income.

 

so while 4.7% "crushes the average rate of return from the s&p 500", how long has the savings rate been at 4.7%? is it guaranteed to stay that high for the 20-40 years until you retire? the s&p 500 was up > 30% from the past year. like i said, it was a great time to be in the market.

 

and if you're young, you generally need to be in more risky (higher return) investments. especially with long time horizon. i don't know how much you save towards retirement, what your retirement goals are, nor how much you will need to live off of once you retire, but for many 4% will not be enough. the issue raised in this thread was about the middle class and growing wealth. i do not have the luxury of such savings rates, and as such need to look elsewhere to grow my money.

[chenGOD]

I don't know if you're being obtuse - but if you had invested 1 dollar in the NYSE in 2000, by 2010 it would have been worth 90 cents. Sure you might be up over last year, but if last year is way below your original investment price, you have lost money.

 

The bank rate has been the same for the last 10 years, these are not accounts that are governed by central bank interest rates.

If you had invested 15,000 ten years ago and not invested anymore the account would now be worth 23,744. With an annual investment of 12,000 (and that's not much really) your net worth has increased way more than you investment in the stock market.

 

It's pretty clear that you don't really know much about how economics or finance work, so you should stick to talking about early reflections and nulls. At least you know what you're talking about there.

[SR4]

how the hell does one understand the stock market?

 

my friend tried to explain it to me and i lost track of all the terminology after a few minutes.

[GORDO]

how the hell does one understand the stock market?

 

my friend tried to explain it to me and i lost track of all the terminology after a few minutes.

 

It's not easy, people make it their PhD subject. But the basics are simple, just a bunch of people trading contracts and stuff they think are valuable.

[elusive4]

I don't know if you're being obtuse - but if you had invested 1 dollar in the NYSE in 2000, by 2010 it would have been worth 90 cents. Sure you might be up over last year, but if last year is way below your original investment price, you have lost money.

 

The bank rate has been the same for the last 10 years, these are not accounts that are governed by central bank interest rates.

If you had invested 15,000 ten years ago and not invested anymore the account would now be worth 23,744. With an annual investment of 12,000 (and that's not much really) your net worth has increased way more than you investment in the stock market.

 

It's pretty clear that you don't really know much about how economics or finance work, so you should stick to talking about early reflections and nulls. At least you know what you're talking about there.

 

so apparently the only 'stock market' investment one can make is the nyse in 2000>? ??? is that how you are now attempting to spin this? and clearly you took dividend payments into account, correct?

 

seriously - dont need your hogwash attitude about "not playing the stock market because it's worse than a casino" to try and give me advice or commentary on the very subject. laughable.

this thread is about mocking the middle class and how they fail to build wealth by purchasing depreciating assets or homes they can't afford. and now you're attempting to state that your fancy 4.7% savings rate in korea is going to do anything for the middle class here? lol. just checked my local bank. >$20k is 0.1% apr. >$50k is also 0.1% apr. the middle class needs > 3% just to keep up with inflation, let alone any actual returns.

 

"With an annual investment of 12,000 (and that's not much really) your net worth has increased way more than you investment in the stock market. "

 

what a fucking general statement to make. what investment in the stock market?

 

if you think you can reach your retirement goals on 4.7% returns, then good for you. only you know your own risk aversion and what your retirement goals are. only you know what kind of income you will need in retirement. so why are you preaching it here? the middle class needs to invest in the stock market (especially young people with long time horizons) if they have any expectation of reaching their retirement goals. i sure as fuck dont count social security. i could sure as fuck use a US bank or credit union that offers 4.7% interest rates with low-risk, and fdic insured. maybe you could list some so you actually add something to the conversation regarding the very people that are of discussion.

[elusive4]

how the hell does one understand the stock market?

 

my friend tried to explain it to me and i lost track of all the terminology after a few minutes.

 

investopedia is a great resource.

http://www.investopedia.com/

 

and this would be great for you to spend some time on if you are interested,

http://www.investopedia.com/video/

[elusive4]

I don't know if you're being obtuse - but if you had invested 1 dollar in the NYSE in 2000, by 2010 it would have been worth 90 cents. Sure you might be up over last year, but if last year is way below your original investment price, you have lost money.

 

and again, so what? i dont need that money for another 30+ years. why do i care about what my gains necessarily are from the past 10 years - of which we experienced 2 deep recessions?

that's what's great about being young - long time horizon.

if anything, one is continuing to put money or reallocating as necessary and cost averaging.

there's a million funds out there, with plenty of history. there's dividend/income investing. mreits alone are doing 15% right now while interest rates remain low.