eugene Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 returning to the issue of environmental impact i think it's kind of meaningless to compare the manufacture and distribution of vinyl to digital media. the latter is obviously tied to a much more vast consumerist culture that far outweighs vinyl consumption such that a comparison is basically ridiculous. it's obvious that making vinyl is "worse" for the environment than creating digital copies if we are speaking in an abstract sense. but in the real world it seems obvious that the digital "milieu" (if you will) is way more destructive to the environment. basically, if we just look at all the vinyl produced and shipped in the world i imagine it's negative environmental impact is significantly dwarfed by the vast web of digital consumption. the argument about 10,000 vinyl in one digital device is pretty lame imo. there's probably like .01% of people on the planet who have 10,000 vinyl. but there are clearly many millions more people who have cell phones, computers, ereaders, internet, etc than even own one single vinyl. and all this shit is just getting more and more vast and all this shit is almost completely obsolete in just a few years (i myself have been through several laptops, desktops, hard drives, phones, etc in my life). i think when you add all this shit up it's clear that making all this crap, distributing it, keeping it all running and going 24/7 makes vinyl production look like a fucking vegan tree-hugging environmentalism. there's nothing abstract about it, by buying vinyl instead of digital in the current circumstances you're being more of an asshole towards the environment and that is really nothing you can argue about, and that's the only things i was trying to say here. the whole digital consumption culture is a much bigger topic and really not for this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 vinyl is cool as fuck. why would i want a harddrive full of flacs when i could have a wall full of beautiful and tangible music. eugene can get a life. also, for djs, if you play vinyl you get respect. turning up in a club with a laptop and a midi controller just makes you look like a wanker. playing the same set on vinyl is more skillful, and therefore more interesting. why would you waste earth's precious resources for something as pointless as inferior and outdated music media ? i'm far from env. hippie but that's like being an asshole for no good reason, like throwing trash a couple of feet away from the trashcan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 You keep saying its killing the environment, but if Vinyl was dead right now, would there really be any environmental improvement thats worth all your fuss? Thats why I brought up the impact of digital devices and how that train is gonna continue to increase with speed, especially with an economic recession, so corporations are taking short cuts on producing those materials by enslaving human beings and building more and more factories across seas. The digital revolution can't be celebrated as some kind of environmental revolution when it is just promoting more and more consumption across all mediums. (advertising) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcofribas Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 in "current circumstances" the production of vinyl is almost completely negligible compared with computer technology. what i just typed probably wasted more resources than a year of vinyl production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke viia Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Cassette Sales increase by 46% in 2011 ! Fair enough points re: the environment, I just rolled with the argument because it's interesting and there were articles and papers to be dissected. I'm not particularly worried about it either way, but I do maintain that digital devices - in the long run - are going to be much more environmentally friendly than any physical medium of information. Pretty soon the digital devices will be so small they'll fit in your ear (like a babelfish!) and if I get my way doing materials science research next year, maybe i'll find out if there's some types of recyclable materials they can be made from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 vinyl is cool as fuck. why would i want a harddrive full of flacs when i could have a wall full of beautiful and tangible music. eugene can get a life. also, for djs, if you play vinyl you get respect. turning up in a club with a laptop and a midi controller just makes you look like a wanker. playing the same set on vinyl is more skillful, and therefore more interesting. why would you waste earth's precious resources for something as pointless as inferior and outdated music media ? i'm far from env. hippie but that's like being an asshole for no good reason, like throwing trash a couple of feet away from the trashcan. this arguement is absolutely ridiculous, you may aswell say why print books on paper when you can read them digitally. you are wrong, and thats the end of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke viia Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I say that about books. *ducks out* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 reading digitally is really uncomfortable compared to paper. i cant even be arsed reading long essays on a computer, never mind a full book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 it seems to me the arguement is that we shouldnt waste physical resources on something just because it looks nice, and makes some people happy. humans only need three things, food, water, and shelter, anything else is technically unnecassary, picking on vinyl is just completely absurd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Cassette Sales increase by 46% in 2011 ! Fair enough points re: the environment, I just rolled with the argument because it's interesting and there were articles and papers to be dissected. I'm not particularly worried about it either way, but I do maintain that digital devices - in the long run - are going to be much more environmentally friendly than any physical medium of information. Pretty soon the digital devices will be so small they'll fit in your ear (like a babelfish!) and if I get my way doing materials science research next year, maybe i'll find out if there's some types of recyclable materials they can be made from. Indeed. But isn't there an issue with competitive industry trying to mass produce new technology inexpensively? You say "soon" we will have babelfish like devices, but I'd say thats probably a good decade or so away. So in the meantime to get to that, Apple, Mircosoft, etc will be further exploiting cheap labor in Asia, where their environmental regulations are far less severe than in America, and so over this decade long period there will be yearly iterations of products, all packaged, shipped, and eventually tossed that will be made on by the blood and sweat of more and more humans. This digital revolution can't be environmental if the success of a device is favored by being more affordable, therefore manufactured and shipped in countries oversees. It seems to me that regardless of the medium you think is better, it is a structural problem that is hurting the environment, not the mediums themselves. With this in mind, the notion that buying vinyl is more harmful for the environment, when it is produced largely in the West and is largely kept vs. actually trashed... well I just think this making a mountain out of a mole hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 on a happier note, my techno collection is up to about 500 vinyl now, enough to be able to start going out and playing technics instead of my cdjs without constantly repeating myself and stagnating. i want to go and splash out on a pure nice set of shelves for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke viia Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Yeah it is a structural problem. That is an interesting topic and I just don't know enough about international regulations / business politics / whatever is involved to say how it will all pan out in the future. What I can say is that, as countries like China move out of "development" phase to "developed," the sweat shops will begin to dissipate and factory automation is almost certainly going to take over. This is way off the original topic now, but I like to hear what Hans Rosling has to say about developing nations and wealth. I am not advocating digital consumerism, btw. Have your vinyl, I'll have my cloud. So... is vinyl making a come back, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Yeah it is a structural problem. That is an interesting topic and I just don't know enough about international regulations / business politics / whatever is involved to say how it will all pan out in the future. What I can say is that, as countries like China move out of "development" phase to "developed," the sweat shops will begin to dissipate and factory automation is almost certainly going to take over. This is way off the original topic now, but I like to hear what Hans Rosling has to say about developing nations and wealth. I am not advocating digital consumerism, btw. Have your vinyl, I'll have my cloud. So... is vinyl making a come back, then? Well, making a come back depends on how you look at it. I think it is because I anecdotally see more people interested that I know. But in terms of taking over the industry, certainly no. Most people download the top 200 billboard crap on their itunes, just tracks, like popping pieces of candy from the candy store. But as long as there is a dedicated base of music enthusiasts who buy albums, I think you won't see Vinyl sales go down. Once our digital devices and cars etc become fully optimized for digital media, CDs will completely die out and we will be left with two things... physical (vinyl/analog) and digital (files). I think the main threat to vinyl isn't that its an inferior experience or that its environmentally worse, its that you can't easily steal it. As I said earlier, the fact that it is so easy to get pretty much any album you want through Google in a few minutes... those who are music enthusiasts are gonna naturally trend towards owning something like vinyl for their favorite bands/artist, just like how people will have posters, t-shirts, ticket stubs. Its an expression of appreciation towards music and the art of the album because of the mass illegal and candy popping attitude of the music industry today. edit: lots of typing problems there, apologizes... just woke up basically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 You keep saying its killing the environment, but if Vinyl was dead right now, would there really be any environmental improvement thats worth all your fuss? Thats why I brought up the impact of digital devices and how that train is gonna continue to increase with speed, especially with an economic recession, so corporations are taking short cuts on producing those materials by enslaving human beings and building more and more factories across seas. The digital revolution can't be celebrated as some kind of environmental revolution when it is just promoting more and more consumption across all mediums. (advertising) jesus, im not saying it's killing the environment, but comparing it to other means of achieving exactly the same thing. youre asking the wrong question again, it's not about whether it is as detrimental as oil refineries or whatever. anything is worth a "fuss", if all the vinyl buying/collecting people would start using flacs instead it would be beneficial for the environment, that's for sure. in "current circumstances" the production of vinyl is almost completely negligible compared with computer technology. what i just typed probably wasted more resources than a year of vinyl production. maybe it's negligible but given the fact that there's a better and less detrimental alternative to listening to music this should be an issue, vinyl is cool as fuck. why would i want a harddrive full of flacs when i could have a wall full of beautiful and tangible music. eugene can get a life. also, for djs, if you play vinyl you get respect. turning up in a club with a laptop and a midi controller just makes you look like a wanker. playing the same set on vinyl is more skillful, and therefore more interesting. why would you waste earth's precious resources for something as pointless as inferior and outdated music media ? i'm far from env. hippie but that's like being an asshole for no good reason, like throwing trash a couple of feet away from the trashcan. this arguement is absolutely ridiculous, you may aswell say why print books on paper when you can read them digitally. you are wrong, and thats the end of the matter. reading digitally is really uncomfortable compared to paper. i cant even be arsed reading long essays on a computer, never mind a full book. of course printing stuff on paper must cease as soon as possible, how's that even a consideration of some kind ? there's nothing uncomfortable about reading from the screen on current devices and monitors, it's just bad habbits like fox hunting for furs or smoking or whatever that'll you'll just have to shake off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 what are you on about, reading from computer screens is fuckin horrible compared to paper. it makes my eyes sore as hell after about 30 minutes of constant reading. i dont know alot about the subject but i know for a fact my dads eyes deteriorated really badly from spending 6-8 hours a day working on a computer because his doctor told him so. anyway, im not even sure why im still confronting you on this point. vinyl is an enjoyable way to own music for me, and millions upon millions of other people. your opinion means pretty much nothing to me or them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 You keep saying its killing the environment, but if Vinyl was dead right now, would there really be any environmental improvement thats worth all your fuss? Thats why I brought up the impact of digital devices and how that train is gonna continue to increase with speed, especially with an economic recession, so corporations are taking short cuts on producing those materials by enslaving human beings and building more and more factories across seas. The digital revolution can't be celebrated as some kind of environmental revolution when it is just promoting more and more consumption across all mediums. (advertising) jesus, im not saying it's killing the environment, but comparing it to other means of achieving exactly the same thing. youre asking the wrong question again, it's not about whether it is as detrimental as oil refineries or whatever. anything is worth a "fuss", if all the vinyl buying/collecting people would start using flacs instead it would be beneficial for the environment, that's for sure. How beneficial though? Relative to spending more money on digital devices, which in turn supports slave labor and feeds corporate exploitation. You haven't provided anything concrete to justify calling vinyl enthusiasts hipster anti-environmentalists... at least you seem to have a problem with people who enjoy collecting vinyl... while have no problem with the structural ills that come with this digital wave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke viia Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 My dude, eating the wrong kind of banana supports slave labor and feeds corporate exploitation. As does buying jeans. Buying vinyl or an mp3 player is not destroying the environment. This argument is beyond overblown at this point, and having done my part, I apologize. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sljiva Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I don't know why there wouldn't be place for CDs (besides vinyls and digital) in the future as well. Digital files are not some state of the art, upgraded successor to CDs and lots of people serious about their music still prefer advantages of CDs compared to vinyl. I can't see CD albums dying anytime soon, though CD EPs are already pretty much dead, unfortunately. And Eugene, you're an asshole. I don't know why would anyone care to bother with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Haha yeah Luke, I mean lets face it. I can't really be against the digital wave when here i am on my computer typing away. So yeah I'm not really in much disagreement with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 I don't know why there wouldn't be place for CDs (besides vinyls and digital) in the future as well. Digital files are not some state of the art, upgraded successor to CDs and lots of people serious about their music still prefer advantages of CDs compared to vinyl. I can't see CD albums dying anytime soon, though CD EPs are already pretty much dead, unfortunately. And Eugene, you're an asshole. I don't know why would anyone care to bother with you... I just don't see the need for CDs when the same files on a CD (sounds the same) will be streamed from a Cloud network to all media devices. Vinyl listening is something that can be manipulated and enjoyed in ways that can't be by a digital format. Analog and Digital will always have their differences it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 You keep saying its killing the environment, but if Vinyl was dead right now, would there really be any environmental improvement thats worth all your fuss? Thats why I brought up the impact of digital devices and how that train is gonna continue to increase with speed, especially with an economic recession, so corporations are taking short cuts on producing those materials by enslaving human beings and building more and more factories across seas. The digital revolution can't be celebrated as some kind of environmental revolution when it is just promoting more and more consumption across all mediums. (advertising) jesus, im not saying it's killing the environment, but comparing it to other means of achieving exactly the same thing. youre asking the wrong question again, it's not about whether it is as detrimental as oil refineries or whatever. anything is worth a "fuss", if all the vinyl buying/collecting people would start using flacs instead it would be beneficial for the environment, that's for sure. How beneficial though? Relative to spending more money on digital devices, which in turn supports slave labor and feeds corporate exploitation. You haven't provided anything concrete to justify calling vinyl enthusiasts hipster anti-environmentalists... at least you seem to have a problem with people who enjoy collecting vinyl... while have no problem with the structural ills that come with this digital wave. 356.5 carrots per nautical mile more beneficial..why does it matter how much, it would be more beneficial, or less detrimental, that's the point. i just don't understand..let's take you for example (and obviously there are many more like you) why would you spend more money on some additional device if you wanted to switch to digital ? you already have a computer, amp and speakers. so for you to start acting more environmentally friendly it would not cost anything, and that switch would not cause some latent environmental damage, do you realize that ? i provided an academic article that claims that buying digital instead of cds is about 65% less impactful on the environment(co2 emission wise) (as if it wasn't intuitive enough without an academic article). and it is very intuitive to assume that the figure is probably similar when talking about vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 what are you on about, reading from computer screens is fuckin horrible compared to paper. it makes my eyes sore as hell after about 30 minutes of constant reading. i dont know alot about the subject but i know for a fact my dads eyes deteriorated really badly from spending 6-8 hours a day working on a computer because his doctor told him so. anyway, im not even sure why im still confronting you on this point. vinyl is an enjoyable way to own music for me, and millions upon millions of other people. your opinion means pretty much nothing to me or them. killing animals for fur and leather is also an enjoyable way to use clothing, it's exactly the same with vinyl. it's just shitty old habbit that'll take time to shake off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 fuck the enviroment. its shit anyway. 'mon the techno, trees are for faggots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd syside Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 what are you on about, reading from computer screens is fuckin horrible compared to paper. it makes my eyes sore as hell after about 30 minutes of constant reading. i dont know alot about the subject but i know for a fact my dads eyes deteriorated really badly from spending 6-8 hours a day working on a computer because his doctor told him so. anyway, im not even sure why im still confronting you on this point. vinyl is an enjoyable way to own music for me, and millions upon millions of other people. your opinion means pretty much nothing to me or them. killing animals for fur and leather is also an enjoyable way to use clothing, it's exactly the same with vinyl. it's just shitty old habbit that'll take time to shake off. LOL You first say: "356.5 carrots per nautical mile more beneficial..why does it matter how much, it would be more beneficial, or less detrimental, that's the point." Admitting you don't know how detrimental vinyl is to the environment... and then you equate vinyl to killing animals for fur? This is why I am asking you how beneficial... because you keep overblowing the act of collecting vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 what are you on about, reading from computer screens is fuckin horrible compared to paper. it makes my eyes sore as hell after about 30 minutes of constant reading. i dont know alot about the subject but i know for a fact my dads eyes deteriorated really badly from spending 6-8 hours a day working on a computer because his doctor told him so. anyway, im not even sure why im still confronting you on this point. vinyl is an enjoyable way to own music for me, and millions upon millions of other people. your opinion means pretty much nothing to me or them. killing animals for fur and leather is also an enjoyable way to use clothing, it's exactly the same with vinyl. it's just shitty old habbit that'll take time to shake off. chopping down trees to make tables and refining oil to make plastic bowls is pretty grim aswell man, when we could all just sit on the floor and eat out of bowls made out the smashed skulls of orphans. you are a joke. (not that i actually agree with leather and fur, but vinyl is not slaughtering any animals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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