How 'Rational Atheists' spread anti Islam pro US military propaganda

[SR4]

or actually, ill leave it with another conclusion viewed through subjective prisms of religion as quantitatively "violent"

 

 

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the monotheistic Abrahamic God. No Judaism, no Christianity. No Christianity, no Islam. Thus they are all according to the same logic equally responsible. Think about it, and there we go.

[MisterE]

you can talk about history all you want, but for the most part it should be a separate discussion. some muslim countries have only just got around to making it illegal to dunk ya bitch's head in acid. bringing shit that happened under a religion hundreds of years ago or even just a few generations ago into a conversation comparing current cultures is a joke. thousands of women are getting their faces melted off. by muslims. this is current day. now, it's weird i know, but, i've never heard of christians in the US doing that to their women. in the current day... or ever. but lets stick to current day shits. btw i think those polls compson posted about how many % thinks its ok to stone ppl for adultery should be corrected to say how many think it's ok to stone women for getting out of line, OR committing adultery.

 

maybe the problem here is that the religious aspect of it muddles the issue, or at least, it serves as an easy tool that some people can maneuver in and use to muddle the issue. the question is, are people really condemning the actual religion itself, or are they condemning the culture and the behaviors that are common and promoted by that culture? i think it's fairly obvious to everyone that most are criticizing the culture and its behaviors.

i dont give a shit what those people believe religiously, or even so much if their retarded religious beliefs are what's informing their child-like mentalities. all i care about is the things they do, and how ingrained in their culture those things are. so lets just talk about that, instead of bringing up salem witch trials or some other bad shit that some white guys did a few hundred yrs ago in an intellectually dishonest attempt at equalizing a conversation about current cultures/cultural behaviors. lets talk about how over THERE it's ok to stone a bitch. over here it's frowned upon. this is now.

[SR4]

I was going to write a big diatribe on Christian militias in Africa and Buddhist rebels in Asia, as those are also NOW, but I have a vague feeling it will be lost on you.

[MisterE]

again, i don't really care what religion they believe. i already said that in my last post. i care about their behaviors.

[eugene]

 

 

Christians have had plenty of suicidal martyrs in history, they are on equal terms with Islam? or no?

 

 

Let's take this rationale one step further.

 

How many self proclaimed anarchists, communists, fascists committed murder/suicide or planned terrorism? Do we have proof that those that did not die in these events absolutely rejected the idea of sacrificing themselves?

 

Maybe even then you are still arguing the numbers game; fair enough. But if we go the route of "they are doing it more than anyone else", it is because of geopolitical instability first and foremost. You didn't have suicide bombers or terrorist cells infiltrating every which way in the 1800s, hell even through most of the early 20th Century, unless they were waged against political enemies (imperialists); hence, religious justification for "jihad".

 

It continues to blow my mind that Islam has always been considered this monolithic dictatorship over thought and reason from its inception, but everyone else is seemingly exempt from this, because the last time they engaged in such acts was a century or so ago. Is there like a timer on radical religious tolerance? I don't understand this disconnect.

i'm pulling this towards very basic anthropology, the idea is that some occurrence, lets take your geopolitical instability for example, will be interpreted and reacted to differently in different cultures. do you agree with this premise ?

 

 

uhh... sure. just like any individual will interpret and react differently to daily stimuli. how this implicates islam as the "most" violent or extremist religion is beyond me.

it doesn't automatically implicate this obviously (i also never hinted at that in case you're attributing this to me), but it could very possibly be more or less [any descriptive adjective] than other religions. it doesn't look like greenwald even acknowledges this and equates all religions and it doesn't look that harris has any serious evidence so state that it is indeed more violent than others as a whole because of all that islamophobic noise. the idea that geopolitical instability and imperialism is a cause of extremism is obvious of course, but you need to compare different cultures' reaction to the same conditions in order to determine how violent or non violent islamic cultures really are, greenwald's criticism misses this completely.

[MisterE]

the reason i said the issue gets muddled is because people have a tendency to identify 'peoples' by their dominant religion. so USA is sometimes called a christian nation, and a lot of times people refer to most places in the mid-east as islamic. and over there, if you aren't islamic, chances are you may find yourself in hot water. but it just so happens that acid attacks ARE not only most common in muslim countries, but that they are perpetrated more often by muslims. if something is true i can say it all day long. that's how i work. guess what else? the sky is blue.

 

my saying that does not say that i condemn muslims, or that i particularly care whether or not their throwing acid on women and YOUNG GIRLS to melt off their faces is because of them being muslims. but maybe you used your psychic powers to deduce that i do feel that way, from the words i DID say? like you closed your eyes and rubbed the screen and got some kind of a vibe from them? or something.. ? do u have teh gift?

 

they can believe we were put here by a bunch of space sasquatches from dimension Z, for the explicit purpose of spying on us to produce porn for their interdimensional black market. stoning women/girls or mutilating their genitals is not cool. nor are all the other innumerable abuses they commit which are supported by their culture.

[SR4]

i dont think anyone on this forum (at least i would hope) in any way supports or condones acid attacks on anyone. that wasn't the issue being raised,

[goDel]

P.O.R.N.

[syd syside]

I was going to write a big diatribe on Christian militias in Africa and Buddhist rebels in Asia, as those are also NOW, but I have a vague feeling it will be lost on you.

 

please expand on this as I am not educated on these rebels... don't understand how this exempts the notion that religion causes violence or immoral culture though? Which is why the ideal of secularism, freedom from religious power/thought is important.

 

Once you make this point I think you can understand why religious extremism/fascism in the Middle East is a problem.

 

And why Islam is a unique threat as it specifically asks to punish those who dissent against it. Which is why martyr acts of the present most often occur in it's name (present day). And perhaps why Islamic countries have regressed away from the ideal of secularism compared to the west.

[awepittance]

lol compson... I don't even feel the need to retort, you always do a fantastic job undermining yourself.

 

(disengages with thread until it hits 10 pages)

 

i dont think anyone on this forum (at least i would hope) in any way supports or condones acid attacks on anyone. that wasn't the issue being raised,

 

but bro, 'they' throw acid in women's faces, didn't you know why thats why we invaded Afghanistan to save all the women?

 

the thread's intention was mostly an experiment to see how deeply anti Islam American driven war propaganda has seeped into people's consciousness, and I have to say it's quite disturbing how much it still has, especially since the thread derailed instantly into how Islam is the 'greatest' threat or whatever other horse shit and not about the article itself.

 

and just to shake up things a little bit, i've not heard of many christians throwing acid at people in the name of religion, but i have heard of a dude claiming he talked to god and god gave him the go ahead to murder over 1,000,000 people for oil, his name was George W Bush and he was a Christian.

[awepittance]

 

Which is why Obama, having a muslim father is viewed worse in the middle east than George Bush was (will get those polls in a moment). Muslims see him as weak because he is a traitor against the word of god.

 

And congratulations, you've actually made my (admittedly injured) head spin.

 

lol, maybe his low polling numbers have to do with the fact that the muslim world maybe actually *believed* his complete smokescreen apology interview on Egyptian TV just to have them all be fucked in the ass again by continual drone strikes and snot nosed punks carrying ak47s. Yeah Bush was pretty bad, but to have someone else step in and say 'I'm sorry, i promise we'll do things differently not like that asshole bush' and then totally reverse and do the exact same thing, even keeping his fucking gulag open, i mean jesus christ i'd be pretty pissed off too at such ridiculous hypocrisy (i actually am really pissed off, lol)

[awepittance]

to be honest, I haven't read most of the article yet, but just in response to people talking about islam being bad; it's none of your business. unless you were raised islamic and are from northern africa or the middle east, you have no right. It's their cultural baggage regardless of what you might think of it, and no one can make them change their minds about it but themselves. acting like it's our job to "fix" the middle east is racist, fascist, and all around imperialistic.

besides, think about it, is religious extremism in the form of islam really more harmful than the US's worship of capitalism?

 

did you not get the memo about imperialism bred white western entitlement and exceptionalism?

[MisterE]

so are you saying that the abuses against women including the acid stuff is just made up? or are you saying that because the US gov is supposedly issuing a lot of anti-muslim propaganda, that nobody can ever criticize the actual fucked up things that plenty of man-babies are actually doing over there? that seems like fucked up logic.

[awepittance]

I don't claim to really know enough about the history of Iraq/Afghanistan to know if we made the right call or not, but I don't think its possible to suggest the Taliban and Hussein aren't fascist and destructive forces (not to be praised).

 

I will politely respond by saying perhaps this is the fundamental flaw in your line of arguing against US foreign policies and war, if you don't know enough about it why act as if you're justifying it simply because those nations had leaders that are 'evil'. There is also plenty of other US foreign policy history you should probably study up on, Afghanistan and Iraq did not come out of direct response to 9/11, they were years in the making and not specifically for American interests. You ever hear the Wu-Tang song C.R.E.A.M.? That's pretty much what im talking about, and it holds the same level of legitimacy when talking about wars

 

so are you saying that the abuses against women including the acid stuff is just made up? or are you saying that because the US gov is supposedly issuing a lot of anti-muslim propaganda, that nobody can ever criticize the actual fucked up things that plenty of man-babies are actually doing over there? that seems like fucked up logic.

 

I totally think acid being in thrown in people's faces exists i just think its hilarious that a war that was planned for years against Afghanistan was in part sold to us, especially the more compassionate liberals in America as being for humanitarian reasons.

[MisterE]

ok. but that still leaves us people here in this thread able and allowed to speak out against the fucked up behaviors that are supported by their cultures over there... does it not?

 

or are you saying that it is entirely unpossible for any of us to actually care about those women being abused? you know with absolute certainty that our talking about it is merely a product of this constant barrage of anti-muslim propaganda we just cant escape from? which i don't ever actually see even though it's supposedly inescapable? sure if i get online and look up bad shit about muslims, i can find it. but that doesn't = inescapable propaganda the likes of which would be required for this type of brainwashing you think we've all been 'turned' by.

[syd syside]

 

lol compson... I don't even feel the need to retort, you always do a fantastic job undermining yourself.

 

(disengages with thread until it hits 10 pages)

 

>>>i dont think anyone on this forum (at least i would hope) in any way supports or condones acid attacks on anyone. that wasn't the issue being raised,

 

but bro, 'they' throw acid in women's faces, didn't you know why thats why we invaded Afghanistan to save all the women?

 

the thread's intention was mostly an experiment to see how deeply anti Islam American driven war propaganda has seeped into people's consciousness, and I have to say it's quite disturbing how much it still has, especially since the thread derailed instantly into how Islam is the 'greatest' threat or whatever other horse shit and not about the article itself.

 

and just to shake up things a little bit, i've not heard of many christians throwing acid at people in the name of religion, but i have heard of a dude claiming he talked to god and god gave him the go ahead to murder over 1,000,000 people for oil, his name was George W Bush and he was a Christian.

 

 

So the intention of this thread was not to learn about the opposing perspective but to just gauge how much smarter you are? You should start a religion.

 

Though I think your simplification of him wanting to murder "1,000,000 people for oil" is a bit crude, it's a reasonable conclusion given how incompetent the war was started and handled.

 

But I don't prescribe to the idea that one should not criticize Islam because George Bush fucked up.

 

Nor do I prescribe to the notion that 9/11 was an inside job, Osama was a martyr, and Saddam was just a "bad guy." And I hope you don't either as that is a form of religious belief, as it does not subscribe to sufficient evidence. It's possible, but if your geo-political world view is being based from this foundation of belief, your world view might just be ignorant and intolerant (to those who dissent against it).

 

Remember, you could be the one actually playing the hands of the elite by buying their propaganda.

[Guest Adjective]

I thought the point of the article was that Greenwald felt Harris was slipping politics into his atheist evangel, not that he was simply being critical of Islam. It's strange that this thread went from that to some real us vs. them shit

 

enjoying SR4's comments though

[Lane Visitor]

This is a complicated issue. Here's the problem how I see it in the form of a list of "Fun Facts"!

 

1. Calling out a major religion as "evil" (except for Christianity which is often blasted by our culture- but that's "ok" cuz it's so mainstream) is frowned upon in our culture because we believe in freedom of religion and tolerance (stems from judeo-christian roots)

 

2. The Quaran and the Old Testament and The New Testament all have parts that promote killing/slavery/sacrifice in some way or another... However, followers of one of those religions are using that stuff now to promote religious superiority and violent revolutionary movements... One religion already did that many years ago... And the other one is abstract so it kinda gets it's "release" in the abstract form of imagination through movies and video games... Lol

 

3. One can't help but notice the trend of violence in the middle east... In arabic countries... Where muslims live... Commited by muslims against non-muslims or other muslims that "blaspheme" or women or gays for being women or gays... But muslims were once more friendly with jews/christians.. Once about universal love and peace and tolerance like rumi and other sufis.. And there are very many muslims and arabs around the world that do believe in peace...And there are people that want peace in the arab countries but their voices are quashed by repressive regimes, patriarchal xenophobic tradition, religious institutions and a culture of intolerance... But still somehow everytime there is a platform for these voices to be heard (arab spring, media coverage, refugee interviews)- theres never a 100% condemnation of violence against innocents- in order to legitimize moderates voices, there needs to be 100% condemnation of of violent tactics upon innocents or there will never be hope for a revolution... I want with all my heart to say unshakingly that islam means peace, and so does the world... I feel that moderates and progressive muslims out there need to stand together and create a real arab spring that demonstrates peace.. Not an islamist/muslim brotherhood arab spring revolution- a real islamic revolution that shows the real heart and soul of the religion, accepting others as well as internally evolving their society (as opposed to rejecting others and de-evolving their society).

 

I think whoever recently posted about self-criticism made a good point. All reliigions need a frame of reference, some good humor and a little self-deprication. A bit of secularism is the only way a religion can get breathing room to avoid "going crazy".

 

We're currently experiencing a major civilization/religion- the youngest of the three- attempting to evolve from the state of it's adolescence- puberty is never pretty... Let's all encourage a peaceful progression into adulthood instead of label.

 

... With that, let's not be so politically correct to where we fail to call out and identify a fascist element to this young "teenager" (wahabiism/islamism/fundamentalism)- for there definitely exists an ugly, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, antisemetic, misogonist element to it's current state... It should be called out, exposed for what it is and confronted BUT also seperated from the original tenets of islam and the character of the arabic people. Muslims and arabs should not be judged by their fanatic versions of themselves, no matter how prevalent it becomes because there will always the silent, peaceful ones without a voice who deserve their rightful identity... With that said...

 

4. Let's not simplify the issue of islamic extremism and refer to islam as evil or refer to arabs as an enemy... For that only makes the argument reflect the rhetoric of white supremists and neo-nazis... There's no escaping that kind of stigmatism and it only serves to divide religions and cultures deeper and deeper... With that said, let's also not fail to recognize a growing evil - sharia/acid attacks/enslavement/mutilating womens clitoris's/beheadings/hangings/shame killings- that most definitely is a part of that culture, fueled by religion, geopolitics and leadership... In turn creating it's own religion- the islamist version..

 

I see the issue sort of like how skinheads in the 60s and 70s were originally workingclass antiracist rudeboy reggae fans from jamaica.. Then... The 80s came along and national socialists stole the skinhead identity and made it it's own.. A more violent form (which got more media attention)...

 

Thus leaving us with 2 types of skinheads:

 

-The humbled good natured traditional apolitical working class skins

And

-The bonehead racist neo-nazi skins

 

Islam/arabic culture is very similar imo.. There is:

 

The original, good natured, faithful peace loving islam

And

The violent repressive islam

 

Which one is the "real" islam?

 

I happen to be believe the first (peaceful) one is real... But it doesnt really matter what i believe...

 

Unfortunately, it's what the backwards buckteeth middle-american armchair general rednecks should also believe...

 

I'm optimistic for a real liberation, a progressive Arab Spring, one that spells peace. I do think it will come, but it needs to sell itself to the world (through education reform, secularism, social media, etc) not just in a solipsistic manner.

[syd syside]

Really well thought out points Lane, but I still adhere by the notion that religion, while may have served a purpose when the world around us didnt make any sense, is now a societal regression. And from what I understand Islam doesn't mean just "Peace"

Here is some info. This might give an idea on why Islam is slower in evolution or in puberty as you said.

Islam (English pron.: /ˈɪslɑːm/;^{[note 1]}Arabic: الإسلام‎ al-ʾislām IPA: [ælʔɪsˈlæːm] (

listen)^{[note 2]}) is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an, a book considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Arabic: الله‎ Allāh) and by the teachings and normative example (called the Sunnah and composed of Hadith) of Muhammad, considered by them to be the last prophet of God. An adherent of Islam is called a Muslim.
Muslims believe that God is one and incomparable and the purpose of existence is to love and serve God.^%5B1%5D Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed at many times and places before, including through Abraham, Moses and Jesus, whom they consider prophets.^%5B2%5D They maintain that the previous messages and revelations have been partially misinterpreted or altered over time,^%5B3%5D but consider the Arabic Qur'an to be both the unaltered and the final revelation of God.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

 

In Arabic, the word “Islam” means submission or surrender – however, it was derived from the root word “salam”. From this root word, you can also derive the words peace and safety.

 

So in some ways, submit or surrender to the word of god and you will have peace and safety. Those who dissent/leave Islam are apostates and should be punished. This is not compatible with secularism.

 

I don't speak Arabic however so I can only base this on weak evidence. It could very well just mean Peace. As sources differ.

 

http://muslimvoices.org/word-islam-meaning/

 

I also don't propose that religion should be outlawed or anything. I am just voicing my distaste for their institutions when they spread intolerance and ignorance. That is my focus. What people believe is fine. But I think we can move beyond 2,000 year old books and come up with new ideas of what the meaning of life is etc.

 

These books clearly aren't in line with our morals and ideals today and that is why when people who are ignorant and intolerant use these books as justification for immoral acts. The justification for it is there in the book.

[Guest Iain C]

Thus leaving us with 2 types of skinheads:

-The humbled good natured traditional apolitical working class skins

And

-The bonehead racist neo-nazi skins

.

A thoughtful post that deserves a decent response - but like so many in this thread it largely ignores the complicated geopolitical situation in many islamic countries - typing this on a tablet so I can't give one - but just thought I'd point out that traditional skinheads were often far from apolitical and bravely fought against fascism.

 

We could use a street movement like that today.

[Guest Iain C]

Those who dissent/leave Islam are apostates and should be punished. This is not compatible with secularism.

Just so you know, my apostate girlfriend and I have been alternately laughing and shaking our damn heads at your bullshit all morning. You don't know any Muslims, do you?

[syd syside]

 

Those who dissent/leave Islam are apostates and should be punished. This is not compatible with secularism.

Just so you know, my apostate girlfriend and I have been alternately laughing and shaking our damn heads at your bullshit all morning. You don't know any Muslims, do you?

 

If she was living in Egypt I doubt she'd openly be an apostate. Feel free to respond and point out what pieces of information I have posted that is bullshit. That's the point of a discussion like this, as I don't assume that people practicing Islam are violent, but that there is violence/intolerance that is being justified in the name of Islam.

 

All I am suggesting is that there is nothing special about Islam and it has no moral authority. I can rightfully criticize it, if for the only reason that it justifies peoples intolerance and violence.

 

Same goes for Christianity/Catholics and their absurdity.

[Guest Iain C]

You don't know any Muslims though, do you?

[Guest Iain C]

Anyway, you just said Islam - not Egyptian society - was incompatible with secularism. I'm in fucking Turkey - I can look out the window and prove you wrong. I'm staying round the corner from a synagogue. You don't know anything about Islam, or politics, or fascism for that matter. Hint - you're justifying it if not outright practising it.

[syd syside]

You don't know any Muslims though, do you?

 

I don't know anyone who practices Islam, I know a few people who are Christian (older people), but most of my friends don't practice any religion (if any).

 

If you are asking if I hate brown people though, then no. I am just critical of Islam as I am most religions. I don't know what the solution is to world conflicts, murder, etc... but Religion is a clear example of something making extraordinary claims with absolutely no justification for its existence.

 

 

The islamic states are the ones that have the most intolerance and violence. Therefore I am critical of Islam because when you are locked into this so called "peace" religion you are less able to speak freely. I hope more muslims speak up against this and help establish a peaceful view of Islam that promotes secularism. The problem is simply the Koran like all the other books, if taken literally are bad for society. So it is our job is to inform people that these books are not actually meant to be used to understand science and morals, but that you can still take positive meaning from them and apply that to your belief in God or whatever.