How 'Rational Atheists' spread anti Islam pro US military propaganda

[RichieBees]

fuckin nuke all these muzzer scum!

[LimpyLoo]

I found this interesting:

 

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201304050033-0022659

 

 

 

alot of people equating nudity with shame which is unfortunate and repressed IMHO

[Guest Iain C]

Femen... the compson of feminism.

[LimpyLoo]

Femen... the compson of feminism.

 

would you care to elaborate?

[Guest Iain C]

Here's my compson style post: a good article about them that Ayesha Siddiqi (@pushinghoops) posted to Twitter yesterday: http://internationalboulevard.com/europe/115-france/194-the-fast-food-feminism-of-the-topless-femen. Incidentally It's worth reading/following her if you're interested in the intersection between islam, feminism and racial politics.

[LimpyLoo]

The thing is, I think sometimes the spirit of activism should be like some vacuous Godard character...

[syd syside]

[eugene]

Here's my compson style post: a good article about them that Ayesha Siddiqi (@pushinghoops) posted to Twitter yesterday: http://internationalboulevard.com/europe/115-france/194-the-fast-food-feminism-of-the-topless-femen. Incidentally It's worth reading/following her if you're interested in the intersection between islam, feminism and racial politics.

she just keeps regurgitating this media thing and doesn't ask the much needed question: is thing "young, dumb and full of cum" feminism that seemingly indulges chauvinist discourse more or less effective than the calm and rational one ? after all feminism has pretty clear goals.

[RichieBees]

young dumb and full of cum,... sounds like my ex wife !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! olol

[Alcofribas]

And it is amazing to see people only criticize the United States aggression, while ignoring/labeling criticism of similar acts of aggression by Islamic fascists.

 

We should be more honest about what potential threat we do face, that it exists, and that religious fascism is not good as it keeps people forced within a doctrine and keeps women oppressed with is the main cause of poverty.

 

i'm not sure why i'm selecting these two points from the past 7 pages but here it goes...

 

for you to believe that a) islamic violence can be compared with US violence and b) islamic violence is ignored can only be explained as the result of severe delusion. the united states has the most massive military in the world and the scale of the violence is unleashes on this planet can be compared to none. people are absolutely right and of sound mind to focus on the actions of the us military which include the slaughter of innocent lives on the scale of hundreds of thousands, unilateral pre-emptive wars, torture (including the disgusting and highly documented events at abu ghraib), extrajudicial killings, drone strikes, illegal surveillance including on its own citizens, the running of detention camps where people are sent (and tortured) literally without charges or any recourse to legal proceeding, etc. etc. ad naseum. and i'm not even going to mention past wars and such atrocities as the atomic bombs we dropped on japan (the reasons for which you also get completely wrong yet again). there is no military in the world that comes close to the scale of violence and massacre waged upon the planet by the us. this is what people are so outspoken against and they are completely right to find us unilateral militarism to be the biggest fucking threat to life on earth, way more so than "islamic fascism." so quite literally, speaking of "similar acts of aggression by islamic fascists" is meaningless. "islamic fascists" have a long, long, long fucking way to go before they can play with the big boys.

 

now, your second point about islamic fascism keeping women oppressed and causing poverty....ugh...poverty in america is obviously a major issue right now and it's probably a good idea to stfu about "islamic fascism" and focus your attention to how this country is being run to the ground by the criminal collusion of government and private monied interests. while our government hands out luxurious kick backs and massive tax breaks to the rich they're slashing public services while the poor keep getting poorer than ever. there are no islamic fascists at play here, just decadent white bigots. the same bigots who are systematically rolling back women's rights in this country on a nigh daily basis. you want to talk about how islam oppresses women? go to fucking iran and become an activist or some shit man. but stop fucking crying about it in these threads. people, americans, ought to have a duty to be outraged about the reasons poverty is so rampant in this country, why women are being legally subjected to humiliating and invasive medical procedures just b/c republicans don't like abortion, why rape is such a rampant and under-prosecuted crime, why discrimination against homosexuality on a legal level is still a "debate" here, etc. etc.

 

my point is, please stfu about "islamic fascism." you obviously don't know anything about islam. it's evident you've never thoughtfully studied the subject, you aren't concerned with where your information about it comes from and your overall approach to the subject is hypocritical and bigoted.

 

as an american i have a lot more important shit to worry about than evil muslim terrorists and so should you.

[eugene]

if the democratic america that pumps the ethos of human right and all that jazz can be so violent and horrible, imagine how islamic fundamentalist states would be given the same capabilities of u.s

[Alcofribas]

i'd rather not waste my time with such fantasies.

[Alcofribas]

i'm still pushing the limits of my imagination fantasizing about the threat of communism, man

[SR4]

good response Alco.

 

 

Honestly I tried several different times to write a rather long-winded rebuttal to the number of faulty lines of reasoning/argument here, but my head would explode trying to figure out where to begin.

 

Ultimately, the very beginning premise of what you are continually proposing Compson (along with simultaneously moving the goal posts), is that the violent language in one specific religious book as opposed to all of them, is a priori responsible for the instability and violence in these regions. You even openly admitted several times in this thread, that you are ignorant of the past geopolitical histories of these regions, and double-down on "Islamic texts=violent society." Again, emphasis on Islam as a religion of violence; all other acts of religious violence are irrelevant because "Islam does it more." I'll get back to this point in a second.

 

I cannot begin to tell you, as you are an intelligent person, of the absolute danger and carelessness of that way of thinking. Isolating all of the Middle East and destabilized Muslim-majority nations into a vacuum of purely irrational religious bigotry and extremism without acknowledging the numerous other outside influences that shape and push them into the current situation. I'm surprised as a militant atheist myself, that I need to remind other atheists or anti-theists that there is not a prioritized hierarchy of problematic deistic religions. They all stem from the same goddamn mythos, and are equally culpable for the perpetuation of violence worldwide.

 

I've seen so many statements in here equating Islam with culture, again, as if Islam is some sort of impenetrable monolithic structure, cohesively unified and never wavering, as if the Sunni/Shiite split never happened, as if Wahhabism was an inherently popular and only form of Islamic practice since its inception, as if Afghanistan wasn't a secular nation in the 1940s and 50s, as if Muslim progressives or govt. dissension simply do not exist.

 

Mr. E, I have had a number of conversations with you in Chatmm and despite disagreements we often remained pretty civil. But in all honesty, I cannot begin to tell you how ridiculously stupid your earlier statements are/were. Saying, "You can talk about history all you want, but this is now" is so inherently nonsensical and stupid, that I am ready to believe you were emotional and did not think that statement through before you posted. I don't think I really need to explain further why that statement is incredibly naive, childish, or misleading, but I will explain why, in conjunction with some of Compson's statements, that it is dangerous.

 

To view everything solely through the prism of Islamic extremism, to further assume that because extremists dominate many Islamic governments that Islam is by nature a naturally uber-violent set of religious doctrine, and on top of that exclude all the other monotheistic belief systems that advocate violence from the same scrutiny, simply by virtue of having done "less of it".

 

My overall point is this: these attitudes are imperialistic, and they are very, very close to being explicitly racist. If you only choose to accept the religious motivations of a society as opposed to outside interference, economic and political instability, social migration, and other factors, you are a priori affirming any other religion to be more morally virtuous, thus the West is better and more morally virtuous. Not accounting for the fact that the founding and defense of Israel is religiously motivated, not to mention what Awe said about the leader of the free world hearing God's voice instructing him to "shock and awe" Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention constant CIA involvement in destabilizing these territories for 50 years, not to mention the British French and German nations destabilizing these nations for hundreds of years, not to mention the process of African colonization which was predicated by "White Man's Burden", to Christianize and modernize the savages of the dark continent, not to mention the African slave trade even before that which was justified via other equally ridiculous and heinous religious excuses. But lo and behold, I cannot tell you how fast the excuses come out of the woodwork: there were reasons outside of religion for these practices to continue or occur. And I wouldn't, as a rational human being, disagree with that statement. Yet that is exactly what some people here are doing in regards to the oh-so-adorable delination of "Islamofascism" in the Middle East.

 

But again, perhaps I shouldn't delve into history, because that isn't relevant, right? The criticism timer must have dinged after a 100, 50, 25, 10, 5 years. What is relevant is the now, completely detached from any external stimuli or causation. Again, perhaps my criticism of ALL deistic religion as equally and inherently corrosive to human existence is naive, and we should instead focus on the body counts of the last ten years, and only the bodies which were destroyed via "undiplomatic" or "unofficial" means.

 

Atheists should hold all deistic religion equally in contempt, and this is not what I see here, nor from Mr. Harris. What I see is cultural blinders willingly held in place under the contemptible excuse of "pragmatism", when in reality they are only spurring on their own form of zealous bigotry under the false guise of "rational thinking", and corrupting our ability to see outside of the prism of religion.

[Guest Iain C]

[luke viia]

[Guest Aserinsky]

Damn, I've been trying to write responses for ages in this thread but decided to hold back. Good thing that Alco and Smetty articulated what I wanted to say far better than I ever could

[Alcofribas]

you mean about the daleks right?

[Guest Aserinsky]

Of course man. If we're going to throw a hissy fit against any type of supposed foreign threat, I think the only time that would have been justified is when we found out those motherfuckers can climb stairs.

[Alcofribas]

completely agree

[RichieBees]

[goDel]

LOL

[SR4]

and now that we have now officially turned to Tea Party agitprop for giggles (and for some, "truth"), I am done.

 

Thanks to those that heard out my long rant.

[awepittance]

lol that chart looks like something a 70 year old Fox news watching old lady would send out as a horribly formatted chain letter with all different sized/bolded fonts and colors

[awepittance]

 

And it is amazing to see people only criticize the United States aggression, while ignoring/labeling criticism of similar acts of aggression by Islamic fascists.

 

We should be more honest about what potential threat we do face, that it exists, and that religious fascism is not good as it keeps people forced within a doctrine and keeps women oppressed with is the main cause of poverty.

 

i'm not sure why i'm selecting these two points from the past 7 pages but here it goes...

 

for you to believe that a) islamic violence can be compared with US violence and b) islamic violence is ignored can only be explained as the result of severe delusion. the united states has the most massive military in the world and the scale of the violence is unleashes on this planet can be compared to none. people are absolutely right and of sound mind to focus on the actions of the us military which include the slaughter of innocent lives on the scale of hundreds of thousands, unilateral pre-emptive wars, torture (including the disgusting and highly documented events at abu ghraib), extrajudicial killings, drone strikes, illegal surveillance including on its own citizens, the running of detention camps where people are sent (and tortured) literally without charges or any recourse to legal proceeding, etc. etc. ad naseum. and i'm not even going to mention past wars and such atrocities as the atomic bombs we dropped on japan (the reasons for which you also get completely wrong yet again). there is no military in the world that comes close to the scale of violence and massacre waged upon the planet by the us. this is what people are so outspoken against and they are completely right to find us unilateral militarism to be the biggest fucking threat to life on earth, way more so than "islamic fascism." so quite literally, speaking of "similar acts of aggression by islamic fascists" is meaningless. "islamic fascists" have a long, long, long fucking way to go before they can play with the big boys.

 

now, your second point about islamic fascism keeping women oppressed and causing poverty....ugh...poverty in america is obviously a major issue right now and it's probably a good idea to stfu about "islamic fascism" and focus your attention to how this country is being run to the ground by the criminal collusion of government and private monied interests. while our government hands out luxurious kick backs and massive tax breaks to the rich they're slashing public services while the poor keep getting poorer than ever. there are no islamic fascists at play here, just decadent white bigots. the same bigots who are systematically rolling back women's rights in this country on a nigh daily basis. you want to talk about how islam oppresses women? go to fucking iran and become an activist or some shit man. but stop fucking crying about it in these threads. people, americans, ought to have a duty to be outraged about the reasons poverty is so rampant in this country, why women are being legally subjected to humiliating and invasive medical procedures just b/c republicans don't like abortion, why rape is such a rampant and under-prosecuted crime, why discrimination against homosexuality on a legal level is still a "debate" here, etc. etc.

 

my point is, please stfu about "islamic fascism." you obviously don't know anything about islam. it's evident you've never thoughtfully studied the subject, you aren't concerned with where your information about it comes from and your overall approach to the subject is hypocritical and bigoted.

 

as an american i have a lot more important shit to worry about than evil muslim terrorists and so should you.

 

thanks for this post, summed up better and with far less snark that i could possibly accomplish. First paragraph is especially good, and why it's considered out of line or disingenuous by some people intent on focusing like a laser on Islam as far as human rights abuses is still totally mystifying to me

 

edit: all those Sam Harris videos being posted here just solidify how much of a tool I think the guy is. Not sure what the intention of that was other than to prove the original point made in the article...