Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Hail Sagan]

2 hours ago, auxien said:

^yeah....nuanced, detailed policies are good to want & hope for, but given the complexity of this particular situation i'm not surprised that no one in a high up position is stating anything outright & coming out instead with lots of generalities/vague placation type answers. i think some of Harris' words about the situation probably line her up with wanting to do/say more, but she is in a particularly sensitive position, being privy to a ton of insider info (presumably, at least, as the VP, tho it's possible Biden & his teams don't have her roped in on all of the actual facts), being in the know on the private pushes/failures/etc. of the US & its partners/enemies...one slip up of even a few words letting out some vaguely implied info that the Qatari (just as an example) didn't want stated publicly could lead to huge issues with ongoing/future negotiations. people in the know in active situations rarely speak out, and if they do it's for specific negotiation tactics, not for 'the sake of the public knowledge' (at least the majority of the time). you follow international politics dbcooper, you know this much... you can be outraged as a US citizen, sure, but you also know good and well that this outrage is pointless & Trump/etc. or literally anyone else in those positions of power, in this situation, would be doing the same.

 

[decibal cooper]

5 hours ago, ignatius said:

do you expect any politician to spill the beans on any ongoing plan they are negotiating? no one does that.. no politician does that about something like a negotiation between israel and hamas especially. it would be careless. 

 

4 hours ago, auxien said:

^yeah....nuanced, detailed policies are good to want & hope for, but given the complexity of this particular situation i'm not surprised that no one in a high up position is stating anything outright & coming out instead with lots of generalities/vague placation type answers. i think some of Harris' words about the situation probably line her up with wanting to do/say more, but she is in a particularly sensitive position, being privy to a ton of insider info (presumably, at least, as the VP, tho it's possible Biden & his teams don't have her roped in on all of the actual facts), being in the know on the private pushes/failures/etc. of the US & its partners/enemies...one slip up of even a few words letting out some vaguely implied info that the Qatari (just as an example) didn't want stated publicly could lead to huge issues with ongoing/future negotiations. people in the know in active situations rarely speak out, and if they do it's for specific negotiation tactics, not for 'the sake of the public knowledge' (at least the majority of the time). you follow international politics dbcooper, you know this much... you can be outraged as a US citizen, sure, but you also know good and well that this outrage is pointless & Trump/etc. or literally anyone else in those positions of power, in this situation, would be doing the same.

you guys are both missing my point: i agree with you both that it'd be unwise to publicly disclose the ins and outs of complex diplomatic negotiations, but it is already pretty clear what the major sticking points are, and it looks like Israel has absolutely no interest in a negotiated ceasefire. Their defense minister, Noav Gallant, is the only member of their war cabinet who speaks honestly about this: that there is no military solution to this problem, that the continual war is damaging to israel, and that a ceasefire deal is the only way to get hostages back and cease the hostilities for this iteration of the conflict. He is right imo. The main sticking point at this time is that netanyahu and the other far right ppl on their war cabinet want military control of the Philadelphi Corridor. They say it is to prevent smuggling of weapons to hamas, but I have seen a lot of analysts suggest these past few months that they want control of that border zone so they can eventually send as many palestinians out of gaza and into the sinai peninsula in egypt.

I am not expecting harris to go into the nitty gritty details of the ceasefire negotiations, but she just comes across as incompetent and ignorant in her take on the situation. She is completely unwilling to speak in an open and honest way to the american people about what is happening there and the fact that the only realistic option at this point is to cut off weapons to israel and force them to the negotiating table so that the western countries, israel, and the middle eastern countries (their leaders and diplomats) can hammer out a deal that releases hostages and puts things on a path to some kind of political settlement. You make it seem like she has some card up her sleeve to solve the situation, but she can't even say that israel assassinated the hamas diplomat who was in charge of negotiations and then we signed a deal for another 20 billion in arms the very next week!

Her position is that she has no clue what she is talking about and is happy for israel to continue escalating the situation and risk bringing the american military into an all out regional war pitting israel against iran.

also i know this is most likely not your intention auxien, but when you bring trump into the situation at the end of your post, it seems like you are excusing the democratic politicians and their donors from all that they've done and will continue to do. There are no signs at all that this conflict is going to end soon or that a deal is on the horizon. These people like biden and harris are venal, they are not guardians of democracy.

[ignatius]

3 minutes ago, decibal cooper said:

She is completely unwilling to speak in an open and honest way to the american people about what is happening there and the fact that the only realistic option at this point is to cut off weapons to israel and force them to the negotiating table so that the western countries, israel, and the middle eastern countries (their leaders and diplomats) can hammer out a deal that releases hostages and puts things on a path to some kind of political settlement.

currently, Joe Biden is the president and perhaps her thoughts differ from his so coming out and saying all that, or whatever it is she thinks specifically about what to do, would be counter to the president's plans and being a vice president means you kinda have to support your president and maintain party unity. now, i know that's some typical partisan talking points but it's also quite true. there's only so many things she can say about anything w/o throwing old joe under the bus. she may have to do that at some point but hopefully she'll be president when she does.  

the calculus of running for president while vice president when there's 2 conflicts going on that the country is supporting is not simple when her goal is to get elected. that's her goal currently, to get elected.  how much she should or shouldn't say about any given topic is an evolving calculation. situation will change and she may say more or less about different plans for her administration and what she believes. 

i don't get why that's hard to understand. people on the right are all up in arms because she hasn't sat down for long interviews with every network or whatever.. when she's busy out campaigning for the job she wants.. those interviews will come but there's a reason candidates do what they do when they do it... riding the wave of excitement and enthusiasm about her candidacy and doing things at the right time is probably something they think about all the time.. they're not going to get yoyo'd around by the right making demands... or journalists trying to pull threads about complex things. whereas trump, being a car salesman, is just saying anything and everything to get people to buy his bullshit in hopes people fall for it and he edges out a win. 

[arti]

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

currently, Joe Biden is the president and perhaps her thoughts differ from his so coming out and saying all that, or whatever it is she thinks specifically about what to do, would be counter to the president's plans and being a vice president means you kinda have to support your president and maintain party unity. now, i know that's some typical partisan talking points but it's also quite true. there's only so many things she can say about anything w/o throwing old joe under the bus. she may have to do that at some point but hopefully she'll be president when she does.  

the calculus of running for president while vice president when there's 2 conflicts going on that the country is supporting is not simple when her goal is to get elected. that's her goal currently, to get elected.  how much she should or shouldn't say about any given topic is an evolving calculation. situation will change and she may say more or less about different plans for her administration and what she believes. 

i don't get why that's hard to understand. people on the right are all up in arms because she hasn't sat down for long interviews with every network or whatever.. when she's busy out campaigning for the job she wants.. those interviews will come but there's a reason candidates do what they do when they do it... riding the wave of excitement and enthusiasm about her candidacy and doing things at the right time is probably something they think about all the time.. they're not going to get yoyo'd around by the right making demands... or journalists trying to pull threads about complex things. whereas trump, being a car salesman, is just saying anything and everything to get people to buy his bullshit in hopes people fall for it and he edges out a win. 

She's going to get slain in the debates.  They edited down a 41 min interview on CNN to 18 mins.   Even then she doesn't say much.  I want to see the edited material.  I'm not a fan of either but take your fucking rose tinted glasses off for a second.  Where is Joe Biden?  It's too grotesque.  She's been vice president for 3.5 years and diddly squat has changed. 

[ignatius]

5 hours ago, arti said:

She's going to get slain in the debates.  They edited down a 41 min interview on CNN to 18 mins.   Even then she doesn't say much.  I want to see the edited material.  I'm not a fan of either but take your fucking rose tinted glasses off for a second.  Where is Joe Biden?  It's too grotesque.  She's been vice president for 3.5 years and diddly squat has changed. 

i'm realistic. i don't have any rose tinted glasses. vice president doesn't do shit usually so it's no surprise that she's been in the back seat for 3.5 years. c'mon.. you know this. VP is, at best, behind the scenes negotiator for the president.. a go between for the president to talk to congress and others and do "special projects" or whatever.

and debates? i think their plan is to give trump enough rope to hang himself and let him say stupid shit. seems like she's been getting under his skin.. we'll see how that goes.. i doubt i'll watch anyways.. i just want it to be over. but "get slain" in this context means what? trump will have all the sound bites? or is he going to drop facts and big plans about all his programs for fixing the world and america and free IVF for everyone!  c'mon.. dream on. "slain in the debates". lols. 

whatever happens the race will be close. a toss up really. 

[auxien]

7 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

you guys are both missing my point

not sure what your point is from your original post nor this one....you want Harris to solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? lol yeah okay, sure man. you want her, an intelligent politician bound/curtailed by literally dozens of different countries, companies, private groups, etc., to say exactly what you want to hear which somehow doesn't wreck the dozens of other interests? your desires, mine, all of the American citizenry come up very, very low on the hierarchy 'who to placate first and foremost when speaking'. you know this.

(if that's not your point, please clarify)

7 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

I am not expecting harris to go into the nitty gritty details of the ceasefire negotiations, but she just comes across as incompetent and ignorant in her take on the situation.

she may be. as current VP she may be only looped into a portion of information. she may be advised by her campaign staff that also as someone running for president to say as absolutely little as possible about the situation so as to not piss off any potential groups further than she already has. anyone who's seen any presidential election in this country is well versed in this tactic, don't get riled up like this is some new thing that only Harris has done, this is the norm.

this is also the other side of the fuckin planet in case y'all have all forgot. America is very much involved by way of their blank checks to Israel for decades, their 'sale' of weapons to them with no conditions, but we are not there, we are not dying, the Palestinians by and large are the victims, but y'all are over here riled up cause this woman has a 50/50 shot of winning, in which case she will do almost exactly the same thing Trump would do if he won....which is listen to the companies, military advisers, economic advisers, interested countries, etc. and keep up the status quo. pretending Harris would do anything demonstrably different/worse that Trump would (assuming this massacre continues until January 20th or whatever it is) is a fuckin joke. the president of the USA in ~6 months doesn't matter to the Palestinian children that'll be massacred tomorrow. get over yourselves.

7 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

also i know this is most likely not your intention auxien, but when you bring trump into the situation at the end of your post, it seems like you are excusing the democratic politicians and their donors from all that they've done and will continue to do.

it's not excusing anyone, i'm saying that in most matters of foreign affairs, the Dems/Reps are the same, Biden or Trump or Desantis or Harris or _____ or ______ would all be doing the same if in the actual position of president during this particular thing involving Israel. your attacking Harris for doing what nearly anyone else in that position would do looks silly tbh, i thought you knew some shit.

Harris is one of the few i can think of who might personally want to limit the sales/Israeli blind support....would she follow through with that as president? probably not. she might be better than Biden, might be better than Trump, might not tho, might be worse. who knows, and whatever she said right now wouldn't matter once in office because that's how campaigns work, they always say one thing but often go back on this that or the other....either way she can't say 'yeah this is a massacre/genocide/ethnic cleansing, US is stopping sales/delivery of all weapons & funding immediately'....just like no one in that position could right now.

7 hours ago, ignatius said:

the calculus of running for president while vice president when there's 2 conflicts going on that the country is supporting is not simple when her goal is to get elected. that's her goal currently, to get elected.  how much she should or shouldn't say about any given topic is an evolving calculation. situation will change and she may say more or less about different plans for her administration and what she believes. 

yeah this.

[Crazing]

 

[decibal cooper]

7 hours ago, auxien said:

not sure what your point is from your original post nor this one....you want Harris to solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? lol yeah okay, sure man. you want her, an intelligent politician bound/curtailed by literally dozens of different countries, companies, private groups, etc., to say exactly what you want to hear which somehow doesn't wreck the dozens of other interests? your desires, mine, all of the American citizenry come up very, very low on the hierarchy 'who to placate first and foremost when speaking'. you know this.

(if that's not your point, please clarify)

my main point is that it is in every country's interest (who is directly involved in the conflict) to end the conflict and put things on a footing for hostage release and some kind of political settlement. There are very real and actionable steps that us govt can take to bring this conflict to a close, which i outlined above, which entail cutting off arm sales from israel, forcing them to the negotiating table, and bringing all regional players together (israel included) to do a deal. This conflict is a disaster for america in so many ways, even worse for israel and palestine, and harris plus biden admin are unwilling or unable to use their power to stop it or even level with the american people (whose votes they are asking for) about what the stakes of this situation are and why it is in everyone's interest to pursue ardently some kind of rapprochement.

I saw you post a meme about how not voting is a form of surrender in the election thread. what you describe above here is not democracy, it is authoritarianism and oligarchy. my point is that this is what the democratic party represents. she said in the interview that we need to get a deal done but offers no insight in how that can happen (because imo they are incapable and incompetent to do so). they say that they are guardians of democracy, but they willfully stand by while israel flouts every international norm and law when it comes to the use of military force, they have even endorsed torture at the highest levels at this point. my point was to highlight biden/harris hypocrisy and authoritarianism. What difference do our votes mean if as you say later in your post here there is absolutely no hope for anything except status quo or things getting even worse?

8 hours ago, auxien said:

she may be. as current VP she may be only looped into a portion of information. she may be advised by her campaign staff that also as someone running for president to say as absolutely little as possible about the situation so as to not piss off any potential groups further than she already has. anyone who's seen any presidential election in this country is well versed in this tactic, don't get riled up like this is some new thing that only Harris has done, this is the norm.

this is also the other side of the fuckin planet in case y'all have all forgot. America is very much involved by way of their blank checks to Israel for decades, their 'sale' of weapons to them with no conditions, but we are not there, we are not dying, the Palestinians by and large are the victims, but y'all are over here riled up cause this woman has a 50/50 shot of winning, in which case she will do almost exactly the same thing Trump would do if he won....which is listen to the companies, military advisers, economic advisers, interested countries, etc. and keep up the status quo. pretending Harris would do anything demonstrably different/worse that Trump would (assuming this massacre continues until January 20th or whatever it is) is a fuckin joke. the president of the USA in ~6 months doesn't matter to the Palestinian children that'll be massacred tomorrow. get over yourselves.

I do see what you are saying here, and I think that there is some wisdom to it. I do get riled up when I follow this particular situation. It fills me with rage as a matter of fact to be party to us support for israel. If you pay taxes as an american, as I do and presumably you do also, then you are paying for what is happening there. I do not make much money, but the shit is fungible when it comes to the taxes that are collected en masse from americans by the government. Even if it is just a drop in the bucket I do not want to participate in any way shape or form with what our government is doing. The fact that there is no meaningful way to oppose their party as american citizens concerns me. This is not at all a democracy in that sense, and maybe thinking this way and saying so makes me unrealistic or naive, but I could level the same charge against you. You are essentially saying that because the american populace is completely neutered in deciding what our government's policy is going to be vis-a-vis the rest of the world, that we should just accept this, we should not resist, and we should just hope somehow that better days are on the horizon and it's all gonna work out in the end because america is a force for good in the world. I disagree.

You also say that 'we are not there' - which is wrong imo. Our presence in that area is in fact growing. Our military even before october 7th is active, and in some cases (small numbers definitely) dying in many countries throughout the middle east. After israel assassinated that hamas leader in charge of negotiations, killed him in tehran, our military presence in the area has increased dramatically, as iran vowed retaliation. A wide regional war is a very real possibility, where americans in large numbers could be killed, and the biden/harris policies and decisions have brought us here:

What does israel bring to the table that we should unquestioningly defend them like this? They bring nothing, and even worse they are a strategic liability for american military and american society by and large. Is this what you really want, for our military to be fighting and dying on a larger scale to defend israel, who even more so than in prior years, is making itself an international pariah that is only supported by one country, our country? When I look at biden/harris policy and comments in interview, this it seems to me is what they want, and I do not think that we should go along with this. Voting and protest have no effect on their authoritarian policy, so where does that leave us, all of the people in america. What are our options at this point, and why does no one ask this question? I get where you are coming from. I am unrealistic and naive because we the people have no say in this stuff and have to just go along with it, but I simply can never admit that (even in a low stakes situation like this, arguing about politics on an idm forum).

Even if you are a vehement supporter of israel and are happy that all the women and children are being blown apart by bombs that we are paying for, even then it still makes sense to try and bring this situation to a close with political settlement. Hamas has more or less reconstituted the amount of battalions that they had at the start of the war. As one of the few state department officials who has resigned publically said, our endless support is creating conditions in the middle east for mass recruitment of islamist extremists/soldiers/terrorists/nationalist-militants/howeveryouwannaputit. We are fanning the flames and destabilizing the fuck out of that area, and harris/biden are in a position to speak honestly but choose not to. They are in a position to put forward a realistic plan for ending the conflict, yet they do nothing. If it was any other country in the world beside israel doing what they are doing, then the most powerful country in the world would most likely have invaded that country, decapitated the leadership, and put things on a path to rapprochement. 

8 hours ago, auxien said:

Harris is one of the few i can think of who might personally want to limit the sales/Israeli blind support....would she follow through with that as president? probably not. she might be better than Biden, might be better than Trump, might not tho, might be worse. who knows, and whatever she said right now wouldn't matter once in office because that's how campaigns work, they always say one thing but often go back on this that or the other....either way she can't say 'yeah this is a massacre/genocide/ethnic cleansing, US is stopping sales/delivery of all weapons & funding immediately'....just like no one in that position could right now.

yes they could, they absolutely could. bernie sanders says shit like this all the time. why wouldn't you want these people to be held accountable for what they are doing in our name as americans? Again, I get it, you think that I am a naive idiot and that we should just submit to their policies, but again I just can't do it. Fuck these cunts.

Anyhoo, from your original post after I posted that interview, I think you are right. Letting myself be overcome with rage by these animals in power, by their fecklessness and authoritarianism, is probably no good for myself, and also i have no power to change anything so what difference does it make?

I gotta find some way to quell this ungovernable rage. More recently I have been working out with free weights and also going on long walks. Maybe on my next walk I will do an assault on a policeman. That'll show these authoritarian fucks like harris!

[ignatius]

2 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

which entail cutting off arm sales from israel,

yeah.. it'd be nice.. and people have been saying this since the beginning. long term i think this will be bad for israel and USA. netanyahu wants to drag USA to war w/iran.. that's his goal i think.. to make a big mess over there and for him to stay in power. 

there's lot's of reasons the weapons sales are still flowing. sadly. i mean, look at AIPAC and its grip on so many things in USA.. from college campuses to individual politicians. not to mention pressure from arms dealers etc. 

there's lot's of narratives about israel being our ally in the region and blah blah blah.. but to what end? back in the day.. previous presidents were able to put israeli leaders in check and keep them from doing really dumb shit or whatever but that hasn't been the case for quite a while.. also, israel itself has gone full on fascist and the extremists on the right have taken over. they've been moving in that direction for years and finally gotten full control of the country not too long ago.  previous decades of leaders in israel would've done things differently but were still presiding over an apartheid state of settler colonialists. 

everything is dumb. if anything is going to change, beyond a cease fire, i don't expect it to happen until after the election and only if harris wins and then only if there is a lot of pressure put on her to do things differently and reign in the fascists over there. 

if trump wins the arm sales will continue, increase, and it's likely that the west bank will go the way of gaza though it would be a different conflict since there are jewish settlers there. 

[auxien]

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

my main point is that it is in every country's interest (who is directly involved in the conflict) to end the conflict and put things on a footing for hostage release and some kind of political settlement.

well not exactly....the aggressors in the situation, Hamas & Netanyahu's gov/supporters, don't want this to stop. given that they're the only ones directly involved in this conflict*, i don't see it ending until one or the other thinks it's better to stop. outside sources could influence this decision, but the decision is up to them ultimately. this is international relations 101. neither wants this to end, they're both getting what they want, basically, which is sick and disgusting but it's the truth.

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

There are very real and actionable steps that us govt can take to bring this conflict to a close, which i outlined above, which entail cutting off arm sales from israel, forcing them to the negotiating table, and bringing all regional players together (israel included) to do a deal.

yeah, hasn't happened yet, Biden's in charge for the next 6 months, and he's obv prone to listening to whatever parties are encouraging this to continue. 'just sitting at a negotiating table' has been done a half dozen times or more already...the players don't want it to end, so it's been killed multiple times. you know this.

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

what you describe above here is not democracy, it is authoritarianism and oligarchy. my point is that this is what the democratic party represents.

yeah, are you surprised? the dems, just like the reps, are 100% in line with keeping up the status quo indefinitely. they've both got a stranglehold on the country, have for decades, and allow for the businesses/rich/elites/etc. to puzzle out movements. voting (from the bottom up the ticket) to enact longterm engagement of the populace is the only thing that can counter this. a Bernie getting into office wouldn't do fuck all, just like Trump being in didn't either. politics, at least right now, isn't susceptible to the Silicon Valley disruption mindset (nor the revolution by the populace rising up scenario). screaming that Harris fuckin' sucks cause she's not Bernie is only like 10% towards the understanding.

 

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

my point was to highlight biden/harris hypocrisy and authoritarianism. What difference do our votes mean if as you say later in your post here there is absolutely no hope for anything except status quo or things getting even worse?

cool, they're all hypocrites tho so....big whoop? even Bernie, literally anyone you can name will turn tail and cave when the right gun is pressed up against their backs. the system as it is, not updated for the 21st century, is going to allow this indefinitely. this breeds the stasis & comfort that allows you and i to spend hours on an IDM forum blabbering like our brains have significant sizes tho, so we all know this is probably safer than the alternative. see above re: voting....getting engagement and education in the system, regularly, is the only way things will get better in the long term. the short term vote doesn't matter much except to let the gov/oligarchy know where our minds & hearts are. it's a response to a test, it's not a vote for immediate change, by and large (tho obviously some big immediate changes can come from this, the real changes will only happen with sustained longterm pushes & growth of interest).

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

You also say that 'we are not there' - which is wrong imo. Our presence in that area is in fact growing. Our military even before october 7th is active, and in some cases (small numbers definitely) dying in many countries throughout the middle east. After israel assassinated that hamas leader in charge of negotiations, killed him in tehran, our military presence in the area has increased dramatically, as iran vowed retaliation. A wide regional war is a very real possibility, where americans in large numbers could be killed, and the biden/harris policies and decisions have brought us here:

let's not nitpick, we all know America has troops stationed all over the middle east and in nearly every vaguely-friendly country on the planet, but that's essentially irrelevant to the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict. it could be a factor if things grow, which they might, but right now our presence is 'peace-keeping' which means murdering only people and groups that don't have friends in the UN, and usually have attacked our troops/friends first.

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

What does israel bring to the table that we should unquestioningly defend them like this?

i don't think you're speaking to me here? i don't know that anyone who's been vocal ITT is a supporter of America supplying Israel with unlimited armaments? fuck the Netanyahu Israeli gov, fuck Hamas. murdering innocents is always bad, full fucking stop, that's it. giving murderers more murder weapons is, hot take here, a bad thing. Israel shouldn't exist ffs, never should've been made, that ridiculous decision was the start of this fuckin horror. what's done is done tho, a 2 state solution if both groups can get their knives out of each other, is the only way for a peaceful step forward.

that's all talking morally tho, morals are only in the conversation for international politics when it's convenient for the speaker's immediate point.

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

bernie sanders says shit like this all the time.

why do you think he was sidelined in his runs for the presidency? do you perhaps see a connection?

4 hours ago, decibal cooper said:

Again, I get it, you think that I am a naive idiot and that we should just submit to their policies, but again I just can't do it. Fuck these cunts.

Anyhoo, from your original post after I posted that interview, I think you are right. Letting myself be overcome with rage by these animals in power, by their fecklessness and authoritarianism, is probably no good for myself, and also i have no power to change anything so what difference does it make?

I gotta find some way to quell this ungovernable rage. More recently I have been working out with free weights and also going on long walks. Maybe on my next walk I will do an assault on a policeman. That'll show these authoritarian fucks like harris!

i think you're naive, maybe a bit more than me, but i am too, and i was more naive 10 years ago, and more so 10 years before that. an assessment/judgment isn't a condemnation. i think i'm more jaded and used to this shit is all, not better or smarter or more well-read (almost certainly not that, i know little actual facts deep knowledge on this conflict, i'm a big fuckin' idiot but really like 0.001% of the US population actually knows much of anything about this foreign war so...we're all idiots, basically). fuck these cunts is the right attitude, but the only viable solutions are blowing up the whole system through sabotage which would be horrific, painful, destructive, violent, and lead to untold suffering and pain without any likely good outcomes, or engaging & educating the public more and more and more so that longterm solutions can be arrived at. (both similar options to what Israel/Palestine face, and you can see what sabotage does...get the Fight Club ending romanticism out of mind as well for that path, that would be a short term horrific bad too)

i'm sure you're joking but joking about direct violence isn't a good idea, keep that shit on 4chan or whatever the cool boards are these days.

go for walks, talk to people, smile, say hi to strangers & encourage others to vote, avoid anger, pet cats & dogs, sing us a song you're the piano man, just a candle in the wind, oh momma i didn't mean to make you cry.

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

 

everything is dumb. if anything is going to change, beyond a cease fire, i don't expect it to happen until after the election and only if harris wins and then only if there is a lot of pressure put on her to do things differently and reign in the fascists over there. 

if trump wins the arm sales will continue, increase, and it's likely that the west bank will go the way of gaza though it would be a different conflict since there are jewish settlers there. 

all 100% truth here.

Edited September 1 by auxien
*yes there are other countries/groups involved in much smaller capacities during the length of this conflict, let's not split hairs...

[decibal cooper]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

i'm sure you're joking but joking about direct violence isn't a good idea, keep that shit on 4chan or whatever the cool boards are these days.

I was NOT joking. I WILL KILL THEM ALL!

Spoiler

I actually was and am joking, this is my attempt at satire.

Joking aside, though, thanks for responding to my crazy ranting, very much appreciate being able to vent about these political issues from time to time. Hopefully some kind of end to this conflict comes soon, and hopefully it does not become an even bloodier mess before that happens, even though all signs are going in the opposite direction.

[Crazing]

Israel is a totally normal country.

 

[ignatius]

in 100 years i wonder what it'll all look like... 

 

[Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo]

fuck israel