James Cameron's Avatar

[Guest Mr Salads]

Determining CGI is good is simply a matter of intelligence. If you cant tell the difference youre like a monkey that doesnt recognize his face in the mirror.

[awepittance]

it's sort of impossible to compare it with avatar, which no one has seen any footage of. i don't really see the point, other than saying that weta does know how to handle special effects so this might be a remarkable movie.

 

i think it's valid to this discussion to compare the two, because apparently this movie will be 75% CGI and Sigourney weaver will have a fake fully CGI 'avatar' version of herself switching back and forth in the movie.

I don't think there has been anyone as ambitious as the things done with Andy Serkis in those fims until Avatar started being worked on.

 

Determining CGI is good is simply a matter of intelligence. If you cant tell the difference youre like a monkey that doesnt recognize his face in the mirror.

 

ok mr. egomaniac

 

and that youtube clip someone linked doesn't look realistic. the mouth is the centerpoint for expression in the face. if it is off, which it undoubtedly is in that vid, then the whole thing will look strange. i'm sorry, but it just doesn't look real. not to say it isn't impressive, but it is most certainly not "photo real" looking.

 

again i think this is differing degrees of uncanny valley, i don't experience uncanny valley as much as you do.

for some like salads, it can be a badge of honor

[Guest zaphod]

ok, sure, but ambition is one thing, objective result is another. i'm not debating that this is all very impressive, ambitious, etc. i'm just saying that what i've seen posted in this thread, as an example of "completely realistic 100% convincing cgi" actually looks incredibly fake. if you can't tell that it looks this way, there isn't really a debate. the fact is, i can tell that that woman is cgi because her mouth has totally unrealistic movements and kind of floats on her face. so the end result is a failure for "convincing cgi", but maybe a step toward something better in the future. that's what i think avatar will end up being as well.

[awepittance]

. if you can't tell that it looks this way, there isn't really a debate.

 

 

i disagree, as i have been saying different people experience far different degrees of the uncanny valley effect. the closer things get to 'real' human cgi for a lot of people the faker they look.

I don't think there is some sort objective measurement for how 'real' something looks especially in regards to human beings. For instance Arnold in Terminator salvation looked very fake to me, but other people i've talked to were blown away by it. where as King Kong made my brain ejaculate several times during the film.

[Guest zaphod]

all i'm saying is, we can tell, as human beings, when something isn't right. this is why a non artist can critique a piece of representational art as being realistic looking or not.

looking at that youtube clip again, there are moments when it is incredibly real looking, but overall, her mouth just kind of floats as a feature separate from her face. it just looks off. it is very expressive though, and i'm impressed by that.

[awepittance]

all i'm saying is, we can tell, as human beings, when something isn't right. this is why a non artist can critique a piece of representational art as being realistic looking or not.

 

yeah this is true, people have been making photorealistic paintings and things like that all through out history but i think there is something different happening when its not just simply an 'artistic representation' it's trying to fool you into thinking it's an actual human being. I think it puts it into a classification byeond just simple 'representation' because at a certain point (near future) it will look identical to real human beings. You can't reach this level with animation, painting, even sculpture. It's going to take a lot longer for animatronic/robotics to look real than it is CGI. I think things like human CGI attempts fall into a different category because once you perfect THAT there is no where to go from there

[Guest boo]

robot theatre

[Blir]

I think if you're judging how good a CGI human being looks your opinion is coloured by how newer movies are looking better and better, almost as if it trains your eye to recognise good human animation

 

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real. When I saw this scene recently however it looked like a joke, due to seeing some of the more recent human CGI efforts. It probably comes down a lot to how hard to please you are as well of course. As I said, I'm quite hard to impress with CGI these days (not just on characters, but I respect when films try to avoid it as much as they can as I find it less immersive - ala Star Wars ep 3), but maybe that's down to me being so fond of old horror flicks with models and make up, even if it looks cheesy these days to most people.

[Guest Mr Salads]

for some like salads, it can be a badge of honor

 

Hell yeah. I am the fucking General.

 

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real.

 

Did you later after seeing the movie throw your shit around with other people and eat bananas

[Blir]

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real.

 

Did you later after seeing the movie throw your shit around with other people and eat bananas

 

 

... How the fuck did you know that?

[Guest abusivegeorge]

for some like salads, it can be a badge of honor

 

Hell yeah. I am the fucking General.

 

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real.

 

Did you later after seeing the movie throw your shit around with other people and eat bananas

 

Thats a fucking LOL

 

Also, are you still? You know, with you know, wee....?

[awepittance]

I think if you're judging how good a CGI human being looks your opinion is coloured by how newer movies are looking better and better, almost as if it trains your eye to recognise good human animation

 

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real. When I saw this scene recently however it looked like a joke, due to seeing some of the more recent human CGI efforts. It probably comes down a lot to how hard to please you are as well of course. As I said, I'm quite hard to impress with CGI these days (not just on characters, but I respect when films try to avoid it as much as they can as I find it less immersive - ala Star Wars ep 3), but maybe that's down to me being so fond of old horror flicks with models and make up, even if it looks cheesy these days to most people.

 

what is some of the better CGI you've been seeing these days?

i think things like MAtrix reloaded and Spider-man 2 are more forgivable than the average 'cgi double' technique used a lot these days mostly because the characters in those movies are supposed to be super human.

[zazen]

more hype surrounding the avatar game at E3

 

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-6-moti...meron-s-pandora

 

It was right around the time I took flight on the back of a giant bird-lizard thing, a proud Na'vi warrior at one with my environment, the lush 3D world completely immersing me in this crazy ecosystem that James Cameron and company have spent the last few years creating, that I decided that I will officially tolerate no more naysaying on "Avatar."

 

You. Are. Not. Ready.

 

And here's why. In simple language. Because James Cameron is trying harder. Harder than he's ever tried before. Harder than anyone else is trying now. He's just reaching further, and I'm wired to applaud that, and to root for him to do what he's trying to do... expand the language of film itself, to add new tools to the toolbox as we're making these types of movies in the future. The ambition of what he's building, the full-world realization of this longtime dream of his... it's sort of overwhelming when you first take it in. I understand why it took him a long time to get his head around how to make it real .....

 

...With "Avatar," Cameron's trying to build something larger than what people typically build. Really, the scale we're talking about, there's the "Star Wars" films and the "Lord Of The Rings" films, and that's it. Nothing else approaches that level of ambition and accomplishment.

[Guest Mr Salads]

expand the language of film itself, t[/img]

 

he should tuck his shirt all the way in first

 

lol not even gonna fix that bruger

[blackdust]

The films been clocked at over 3 hours long :confused: better have good pacing to the story or my butt is going to pay in those shitty cinema seats

[lumpenprol]

I was prepared to be into this but the screenshots make it look like Halo.

[kaini]

there are also people i think who suffer much more from the uncanny valley effect than others

for instance i know people who think every CGI human recreation they have ever seen looks terrible even that Metrics one above to them looks like a cartoon. To me it looks 100% real.

 

yeah, but in fairness you have spent quite a while frolicking with self-transforming machine elves

[awepittance]

there are also people i think who suffer much more from the uncanny valley effect than others

for instance i know people who think every CGI human recreation they have ever seen looks terrible even that Metrics one above to them looks like a cartoon. To me it looks 100% real.

 

yeah, but in fairness you have spent quite a while frolicking with self-transforming machine elves

 

true, my experience with psychedelics could have 'primed' my brain for accepting things that don't look quite real to a normal person and something very much real .

[nme]

there are also people i think who suffer much more from the uncanny valley effect than others

for instance i know people who think every CGI human recreation they have ever seen looks terrible even that Metrics one above to them looks like a cartoon. To me it looks 100% real.

 

yeah, but in fairness you have spent quite a while frolicking with self-transforming machine elves

 

true, my experience with psychedelics could have 'primed' my brain for accepting things that don't look quite real to a normal person and something very much real .

 

lol if by "primed" you mean "damaged" your brain so that you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality

[Blir]

I think if you're judging how good a CGI human being looks your opinion is coloured by how newer movies are looking better and better, almost as if it trains your eye to recognise good human animation

 

For instance when I saw Matrix Reloaded and the big battle in the courtyard I was amazed by the CGI Neo spinning around kicking the Smiths, and by the CGI Smiths flying about just looked so real. When I saw this scene recently however it looked like a joke, due to seeing some of the more recent human CGI efforts. It probably comes down a lot to how hard to please you are as well of course. As I said, I'm quite hard to impress with CGI these days (not just on characters, but I respect when films try to avoid it as much as they can as I find it less immersive - ala Star Wars ep 3), but maybe that's down to me being so fond of old horror flicks with models and make up, even if it looks cheesy these days to most people.

 

what is some of the better CGI you've been seeing these days?

i think things like MAtrix reloaded and Spider-man 2 are more forgivable than the average 'cgi double' technique used a lot these days mostly because the characters in those movies are supposed to be super human.

 

Well, Pirates of the Carribean has some good human CGI. It's a difficult question to ask really, as the progression has been gradual you can only really look back and be surprised at how much better it is these days. No doubt some real high budget movies in five or so years time will make me look back at current movies thinking how inferior they are.

 

I remember the plans they had for the main character in Final Fantasy Spirits Within, they intended to use the same model in other films, to be the first fully CGI actress. An interesting idea but kinda pointless... Problem is people got the uncanny valley effect looking at her cold dead face.

[Tessier Ashpool]

I'm psyched because, frankly, Cameron has been pushing the limits for years, and usually to excellent effect. I mean, take a look at Terminator 2. The liquid metal effects, even though they ARE dated, don't necessarily look "bad" because they are used so well that they don't feel out of place or dated.

 

Or, take Aliens, from ffs, 1986.

 

1986.

 

I watched that shit the other day and its STILL entertaining and looks awesome. Cameron seems to understand how important it is to not just rely on a technology but also how to coax realism out of it. He doesn't ever seem to overextend himself to the point where he's pushing so hard he sacrifices the quality of the work.

 

Which is why, unlike some unproven directors, I have a much higher degree of faith that he'll pull off something spectacular.

 

 

[Bob Dylan]

I want those blue night-time scenes back. You know, the Cameron-look.

 

It's in all his movies. T2, True Lies, Titanic, Aliens, Abyss (well not night). It's great, there's no other directors that do it like him, they just put a blue filter and desaturates the fuck out of the picture

 

 

[awepittance]

I want those blue night-time scenes back. You know, the Cameron-look.

 

It's in all his movies. T2, True Lies, Titanic, Aliens, Abyss (well not night). It's great, there's no other directors that do it like him, they just put a blue filter and desaturates the fuck out of the picture

 

yeah i totally agree man, i love the way T2 looks in the night scenes when Arnold and John break into the pescadaro mental hospital, it's beautifully lit. I get chills down my spine every time i watch some key scenes from Terminator 2 where its got that strong blue lighting.

[awepittance]

lol if by "primed" you mean "damaged" your brain so that you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality

 

i'll admit if i just was doing drugs to hallucinate that would be an pwn but i think besides DMT lucid dreaming was probably the biggest culprit to not being able to tell the difference as easily as some others.

[Guest Mr Salads]

I want those blue night-time scenes back. You know, the Cameron-look.

 

It's in all his movies. T2, True Lies, Titanic, Aliens, Abyss (well not night). It's great, there's no other directors that do it like him, they just put a blue filter and desaturates the fuck out of the picture

 

yeah i totally agree man, i love the way T2 looks in the night scenes when Arnold and John break into the pescadaro mental hospital, it's beautifully lit. I get chills down my spine every time i watch some key scenes from Terminator 2 where its got that strong blue lighting.

 

Hell yeah