Reason introducing plugin support

[Root5]

http://www.propellerheads.se/news/rackextensions/

 

They're gonna be called Rack Extensions. Not much information yet.

[oscillik]

waits for people who don't understand what Reason is, and their complaints of "no VST support"

[ryancolecreate]

woah this is badass. :D

 

I might have to swing back into reason once this gets implemented. Seems like it will basically be like VSTs with cable routing and all that. A fantastic idea IMO.

[tokn]

Interesting. Though I always liked their concept about having a solid tool-box and not allowing third parties to throw in their probably quite unstable tools. But let's see what develops out of this.

[Guest Blanket Fort Collapse]

They should have added VST support 3 years ago when I still had my dick all up in that beach.

[oscillik]

They should have added VST support 3 years ago when I still had my dick all up in that beach.

 

you clearly don't understand what Reason is...at least was, up until this point.

 

Reason was never meant to be a DAW, certainly not in the sense that many people keep trying to compare it with other music packages.

 

Reason was originally the design spec for what they wanted to do first. They couldn't do Reason at the time due to limitations of technology, so they did ReBirth instead. Reason was always meant to be an all-in-one package for reasons of consistency and stability.

 

As the video in that article proves, consistency is about to be thrown out of the window (faders on that SoftTube EQ being drawn as horizontal, yet you still interact with it using vertical mouse movements...wtf?!). Stability is questionable.

 

I guess we'll find out.

[oscillik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAt6jpBmHHM

[Root5]

Stability is questionable.

 

They said that they've made it hard to make an extension that will crash, and even if you do, a crashed extension will not crash reason. It will just go silent, and a pop-up will tell you to save and restart. Unless they fuck it up, stability won't be an issue.

[Guest sirch]

waits for people who don't understand what Reason is, and their complaints of "no VST support"

 

you do a lot of waiting around here don't you, osc...

[TechDiff]

huh, surprising news!

 

Couldn't be bothered to sit through that whole 40 min presentation. I've been to Propellerhead demos before and they're boring as hell, so maybe I missed some key moments along the way.

 

But it would seem like 3rd party support in a very limited sense of the word. again sorry if I'm misunderstanding, or missed some key bit of information, but am I right in thinking this support is through a completely new plugin format? a new format exclusive to Reason only?

 

Hmmm, very weird idea.

 

I think it makes sense in so far as adhering to some of the core principles of Reason, a completely integrated, reliable setup. Such a setup, with their Rack Extensions shop and so on, will in theory provide them with plenty of approval time for each new Rack device. They could test each submission to make sure it works within the framework as it should. Good idea...

 

But a completely exclusive plugin format is a very very bold move. It is so reliant on 3rd party's deciding to spend the extra time and money to develop their products in order to comply to this standard. Some don't even bother to port things between OSX and Windows, I wonder how many will consider it worth while to port things for just one specific DAW.

 

Then it's worth considering the end users. If I was thinking about spending a couple hundred quid on a new plugin synth, and had the option of buying it from a shop in a format I can use on 99% of all hosts, or buying it from the Propellerhead shop in a format I can use in just one host, it's a bit of a no brainer.

 

I liked at the start, the way they really hammer home how loyal their customer base is, I suspect this new idea will be really dependant on just how those customers are.

 

None the less, I do really admire their constant efforts to do things in a unique way, and stay as faithful as possible to that original inception, but it doesn't half strike me as a bit of a ball n chain sometimes.

 

Again, might have missed some key points in that video, and all my comments may be completely void, apologies of that's the case.

[Guest sirch]

huh, surprising news!

 

Couldn't be bothered to sit through that whole 40 min presentation. I've been to Propellerhead demos before and they're boring as hell, so maybe I missed some key moments along the way.

 

But it would seem like 3rd party support in a very limited sense of the word. again sorry if I'm misunderstanding, or missed some key bit of information, but am I right in thinking this support is through a completely new plugin format? a new format exclusive to Reason only?

 

Hmmm, very weird idea.

 

I think it makes sense in so far as adhering to some of the core principles of Reason, a completely integrated, reliable setup. Such a setup, with their Rack Extensions shop and so on, will in theory provide them with plenty of approval time for each new Rack device. They could test each submission to make sure it works within the framework as it should. Good idea...

 

But a completely exclusive plugin format is a very very bold move. It is so reliant on 3rd party's deciding to spend the extra time and money to develop their products in order to comply to this standard. Some don't even bother to port things between OSX and Windows, I wonder how many will consider it worth while to port things for just one specific DAW.

 

Then it's worth considering the end users. If I was thinking about spending a couple hundred quid on a new plugin synth, and had the option of buying it from a shop in a format I can use on 99% of all hosts, or buying it from the Propellerhead shop in a format I can use in just one host, it's a bit of a no brainer.

 

I liked at the start, the way they really hammer home how loyal their customer base is, I suspect this new idea will be really dependant on just how those customers are.

 

None the less, I do really admire their constant efforts to do things in a unique way, and stay as faithful as possible to that original inception, but it doesn't half strike me as a bit of a ball n chain sometimes.

 

Again, might have missed some key points in that video, and all my comments may be completely void, apologies of that's the case.

 

Fruityloops 4 Lyfe!

 

I take it this 'change' will not convert you then, TechDiff? :)

[oscillik]

Stability is questionable.

 

They said that they've made it hard to make an extension that will crash, and even if you do, a crashed extension will not crash reason. It will just go silent, and a pop-up will tell you to save and restart. Unless they fuck it up, stability won't be an issue.

 

Well, we don't really know much at the moment. Admittedly, Propellerhead do have a very strict tenet for stable products (I can't ever remember Reason crashing on me, and I've been using it since version 1). I still view this announcement with some trepidation.

 

waits for people who don't understand what Reason is, and their complaints of "no VST support"

 

you do a lot of waiting around here don't you, osc...

 

not really, this is the second time I've posted about waiting around for someone.

 

But it would seem like 3rd party support in a very limited sense of the word. again sorry if I'm misunderstanding, or missed some key bit of information, but am I right in thinking this support is through a completely new plugin format? a new format exclusive to Reason only?

 

Yes it is a format specific to Reason. It's nothing new. ReFills are a format specific to Reason, and there have been many companies releasing sample and patch packs in the ReFill format.

 

But a completely exclusive plugin format is a very very bold move. It is so reliant on 3rd party's deciding to spend the extra time and money to develop their products in order to comply to this standard. Some don't even bother to port things between OSX and Windows, I wonder how many will consider it worth while to port things for just one specific DAW.

 

Supposedly one of the developers managed to get their VST DSP code up and running in 15 minutes...thems no small potatoes. As for your point about whether it's viable, of course it is - Reason is apparently the second most popular music making package "in the industry", sitting underneath Pro Tools as the top dog. Reason is used for music in countless television advertisements, it is used in films (OldBoy is an example of a fairly high-profile film that has used Reason extensively in the soundtrack), and many established artists use it (Luke Vibert being a pertinent example).

 

Make no mistake, it's definitely within plug-in makers interests to support this new format.

 

Then it's worth considering the end users. If I was thinking about spending a couple hundred quid on a new plugin synth, and had the option of buying it from a shop in a format I can use on 99% of all hosts, or buying it from the Propellerhead shop in a format I can use in just one host, it's a bit of a no brainer.

 

I liked at the start, the way they really hammer home how loyal their customer base is, I suspect this new idea will be really dependant on just how those customers are.

 

None the less, I do really admire their constant efforts to do things in a unique way, and stay as faithful as possible to that original inception, but it doesn't half strike me as a bit of a ball n chain sometimes.

 

Again, might have missed some key points in that video, and all my comments may be completely void, apologies of that's the case.

 

Certainly a valid perspective - there is an element of vendor lock-in here. But when you consider that a lot of Reason users are used to being locked into their Apple-tree gardens, it's not really that massive of a deal. The key here will be pricing. Propellerhead are going to have to work closely with developers to bring reasonably priced plugins, otherwise the whole thing will collapse.

 

You mention about being able to use the plugin in a format that is available on all hosts? Well, that's a bit of a disingenuous remark since plugins aren't always sold in multi-formats. I've never personally used ProTools, but I know that they use RTAS format, right? It's not always possible to get a plugin you want as an RTAS.

 

I personally think this is Propellerhead capitulating to all those crying "whaaaaa no VST support". However, I did also feel the same about audio recording support brought in with Record and Reason 6....but after having played around with Reason 6, it's a very welcome addition. Of course, I'm gonna give this a go and see what it's like.

 

I wonder if we'll get any free plugins...

[TechDiff]

 

 

Fruityloops 4 Lyfe!

 

I take it this 'change' will not convert you then, TechDiff? :)

 

pfff will if fuck! I've never had a problem with Reasons self contained nature, cool idea. I just hate its sound engine and interface ;)

 

And yeah, still loving FL, still loving Logic.

[TechDiff]

But a completely exclusive plugin format is a very very bold move. It is so reliant on 3rd party's deciding to spend the extra time and money to develop their products in order to comply to this standard. Some don't even bother to port things between OSX and Windows, I wonder how many will consider it worth while to port things for just one specific DAW.

 

Supposedly one of the developers managed to get their VST DSP code up and running in 15 minutes...thems no small potatoes. As for your point about whether it's viable, of course it is - Reason is apparently the second most popular music making package "in the industry", sitting underneath Pro Tools as the top dog. Reason is used for music in countless television advertisements, it is used in films (OldBoy is an example of a fairly high-profile film that has used Reason extensively in the soundtrack), and many established artists use it (Luke Vibert being a pertinent example).

 

Make no mistake, it's definitely within plug-in makers interests to support this new format.

 

 

that's actually surprising, 15 minutes is far less than I had imagined. still, it depends what exactly it is you're porting across.

 

anyway, totally appreciate that Reason is a widely used platform and so on. Im more just curious about how many people will subscribe to this new format of exclusive plugin over the old rewire in another host and use VST, AU or whatever.

 

There is also the question of plugin developers revisiting old releases in order to make them Rack Extension compatible.

 

it's a very valid point though, I guess we really are just speculating, have to wait and see.

 

I think you're right though, certainly a hint of resignation on the part of Propellorhead, can't imagine the number of requests they'd get "pleaz I kan hav teh vee ess tee plees?" I think that and also perhaps a hint of acceptance that there are actually some ridiculously good plugins out there, far better than what Reason can provide on its own.

 

Not saying that in attack of Reason, that has never really struck me as what they're all about. They have endeavoured to make a self contained solid-as-a-rock environment, and done so very well. Just that there are companies whos only direction is making amazingly powerful and versatile plugins.

[oscillik]

that's actually surprising, 15 minutes is far less than I had imagined. still, it depends what exactly it is you're porting across.

 

bearing in mind that "15 minutes" claim was made by the guy doing that Jobsian keynote, and that in any case it's just the DSP code....not taking into account integrating the undo functionality, automation editing, and sorting out the modular-style CV/Gate cabling.

 

It's certainly not as simple as putting your code into a compiler and then 15 mins later job done. But it is certainly a bit better than going from scratch.

 

anyway, totally appreciate that Reason is a widely used platform and so on. Im more just curious about how many people will subscribe to this new format of exclusive plugin over the old rewire in another host and use VST, AU or whatever.

 

I think you've already answered your point yourself. Most people will likely prefer the added functionality and flexibility offered to them by ReWiring into a host DAW such as Cubase, Logic, or Reaper. There will be a large percentage of users though, that maybe aren't so clued up on ReWiring or even any 'professional' DAW, and will appreciate the aspect of being able to expand their Reason setup without having to worry about configuring shit. A lot of these people may not even be using ASIO drivers...I know I wasn't for a very long time (not that I'm proclaiming to be some kind of professional or anything, far from it).

 

There is also the question of plugin developers revisiting old releases in order to make them Rack Extension compatible.

 

I believe the Rack Extensions demoed in the presentation are built from already existing VST plugins. Korg was mentioned, and I'm positive they will be porting their Legacy collection.

 

I think that and also perhaps a hint of acceptance that there are actually some ridiculously good plugins out there, far better than what Reason can provide on its own.

 

Reason can provide pretty much whatever you want it to provide, as long as you take the time and effort to delve into it's modular capabilities. Reason certainly isn't as limited as some people like to think. Combinator devices really took care of that. The major difference between Reason rack units and VSTs running inside a host DAW are that Reason takes a much more 'hardware' analogous approach to sound design, with the obvious CV/Gate patching. Contrasted with VSTs which generally rely on the host's internal audio routing capabilities for stuff, it's more like digital readouts on a two line digital synth. It's just a different headspace to get yourself in. Some prefer the hardware paradigm (me included), some prefer doing it with menus and stuff.

 

Just that there are companies whos only direction is making amazingly powerful and versatile plugins.

 

With massive price tags to boot.

[Guest sirch]

Fruityloops 4 Lyfe!

 

I take it this 'change' will not convert you then, TechDiff? :)

 

pfff will if fuck! I've never had a problem with Reasons self contained nature, cool idea. I just hate its sound engine and interface ;)

 

And yeah, still loving FL, still loving Logic.

 

don't go changing mate. your stuff sounds awesome!

[modey]

Seems like it will basically be like VSTs with cable routing and all that. A fantastic idea IMO.

You mean like in Buzz?

[TechDiff]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this a lot for some reason (ugh) and figured that I'm looking at it from the completely wrong perspective.

 

The main point isn't really that Reason can now run plugins, but that Propellerhead have introduced a new plugin format.

 

What that format promises to resolve are really some of the key issues that people have griped about for years, stuff like no undo functionality, and limited inter-connectivity etc.. There are a lot of really interesting possibilities from this. Tbh it's something that should have been done ages ago.

 

I think what will make it or break it for me at least is the implementation.

 

For a start the Rack Extension shop thingy doesn't sit well with me, it's a direct model of the App store really, and could actually be really quite detrimental for independent/hobbyist/obscure plugin developers. Of course it may not be, depends how Propellerheads play it I guess. I do really like the idea of it being a completely open platform, with odd little toys cropping up, silly little sound makers...

 

The other part is the platform itself, and if it will be licensed out to other companies, in the same way that the VST extension is. While I'm not tempted to switch host simply for a new plugin format, I do like the idea that all the features that Rack Extensions promises could be supported in FL or Ableton or whatever. That said though, this industry like any other is about exclusivity. Unique selling points and so on. Once again, only time will tell!

 

don't go changing mate. your stuff sounds awesome!

 

/blush :)

[halisray]

I've just been messing with an NFR and it is really cool, so different from Live though.. I prefer Live.

[ryancolecreate]

I don't think it's going to be a new format. I think They will hand pick and approve extensions before they even are available, ala Apple App store. It makes perfect sense for their platform. I imagine they have a bit manual for extension developers and an API to plug into. Not like a plugin format.

[ryancolecreate]

For a start the Rack Extension shop thingy doesn't sit well with me, it's a direct model of the App store really, and could actually be really quite detrimental for independent/hobbyist/obscure plugin developers. Of course it may not be, depends how Propellerheads play it I guess. I do really like the idea of it being a completely open platform, with odd little toys cropping up, silly little sound makers...

 

I understand you, but this is absolutely what NOT to do if stability and compatibility is your goal as it is with Reason and Apple products. That said there are still plenty of odd little apps for iPhone and iPad, so I don't think it squashed creativity. It just depends on how fascistic propellerheads chooses to regulate it.

[Guest Aces]

This is excellent news as far as I'm concerned. I've always loved Reason and I was thinking that something like this would be great.

[Alzado]

Loyal reason user and I think this is great. I hope the major developers port their popular plugins. i'd especially love to have some new sampler options. audio processing and audio tracks were what I aways wanted in Reason most and they've taken care of those. so this just blows reason wide open.

[Root5]

I'd really like an lfo device where you can draw your own waveform.

 

Better samplers would be really great too. Something that allowed for microsampling would we wonderful.

[cear]

 

haha