'Global Warming's Terrifying New Math'

[zlemflolia]

cant solve climate change without rational planning of the means of production which capitalism is incapable of, since it only plans for profit, which does not correspond to value, as we can see

only socialism is a sufficiently advanced mode of production to allow climate change reversal

[prdctvsm]

[Hi Guys]

Isn’t it strange to see the rich elite spending all of this time and energy consolidating as much money and power as they can now? Feverishly working to bring AI up to an acceptable standard now so after the big die offs occur they can still live comfortably… all right in front us, like it’s somehow going to benefit us all, knowing most of us will be dead.

[ignatius]

 

[may be rude]

On 8/27/2023 at 3:28 AM, zlemflolia said:

cant solve climate change without rational planning of the means of production which capitalism is incapable of, since it only plans for profit, which does not correspond to value, as we can see

only socialism is a sufficiently advanced mode of production to allow climate change reversal

that's dumb, unhelpful, and wrong. but i think you know that

 

in the US, we need to elect more climate people to congress. it doesn't matter if they call themselves socialist. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by trying to be less rude

[ignatius]

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

in the US, we need to elect more climate people to congress. it doesn't matter if they call themselves socialist. 

there's a bunch of eco-fascist-white supremacists out there. gotta watch out for them. 

indigenous peoples are fighting hard already and not holding back. the System Fail videos document this well. there's a bunch of them focusing on different places. 

as for america.. yeah.. uh.. idk. seems like nothing will change unless the allegedly "free" market wants it to. there's a lack of clarity as to what needs to happen and no agreement on the best way or anything. most americans are oblivious and don't wake up until their actual front lawn is on fire or fire comes out of the kitchen faucet. 

[zlemflolia]

6 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

that's dumb, unhelpful, and wrong. but i think you know that

 

in the US, we need to elect more climate people to congress. it doesn't matter if they call themselves socialist. 

IM VOOOOOOOOOOOOTING

talk about a useless post, "we need to elect more climate people" LOL like who?  the only people running for offices who have had even remotely viable climate policies so far, are socialists, coincidentally bourgeois liberals are on the side of capital, maybe youd know that if you werent a right wing shill

imagine thinking you can solve climate change in a decentralized market economy, without rational planning. do you even know what these words mean and what the causes of climate change are?  i think not given youre shilling for bourgeois electoralism

Edited August 29, 2023 by zlemflolia

[may be rude]

7 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

imagine thinking you can solve climate change in a decentralized market economy, without rational planning. do you even know what these words mean and what the causes of climate change are?

yeah. in the US we pass some climate legislation, try to pass more that nearly passes but doesn't, and don't even try on stuff we know doesn't have a chance. that range can move. it doesn't take much for things to shift, sometimes. it's becoming more and more recognized that the senate filibuster is an archaic excuse for inaction and it's unconstitutional. both parties routinely bypass it when necessary. a couple years ago the dems just went and tried to pass a rules change that would have allowed them to pass the Freedom to Vote/John Lewis Voting Rights legislation. 2 votes - manchin and sinema, sunk it. 

good legislation is possible by voting democrat. actually, this is a crucial part of the solution, so i'm glad you brought it up. policy is necessary. that's why it's so important to vote for democrats. the republicans transparently serve the oil industry. donations cross the aisle but proportionally it's much more on the republican side, as measured on open secrets 

investing in the needed innovation, updating the grid and other infrastructure, removing subsidies for oil! etc - all possible in capitalist USA minus fox "news" 

[may be rude]

10 hours ago, ignatius said:

as for america.. yeah.. uh.. idk. seems like nothing will change unless the allegedly "free" market wants it to. there's a lack of clarity as to what needs to happen and no agreement on the best way or anything. most americans are oblivious and don't wake up until their actual front lawn is on fire or fire comes out of the kitchen faucet. 

i think it's as simple as tipping things left, enough. politicians learn when elections are lost. the gop needs to by cycled. 

my view is that corporate powers like oil have dragged policy far from its natural state. simultaneously, the gop are overextended, chaotic and brittle. i think the play is: let the gop rubber band back to the minority status they truly represent, and give the left enough cushion and stability to really fix shit. gerrymandering legislation, etc. then long-term climate legislation can occur. 

in terms of what needs to be done, gates's 2021 book How To Avoid A Climate Disaster is an invaluable resource. every congressional staffer in the country should have a copy. he takes a system designer's systematic problem solving approach to the actual problem, and the book is his output, which constitutes a policy guide and primer.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by trying to be less rude

[ignatius]

3 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

i think it's as simple as tipping things left, enough. politicians learn when elections are lost. the gop needs to by cycled. 

my view is that corporate powers like oil have dragged policy far from its natural state. simultaneously, the gop are overextended, chaotic and brittle. i think the play is: let the gop rubber band back to the minority status they truly represent, and give the left enough cushion and stability to really fix shit. gerrymandering legislation, etc. then long-term climate legislation can occur. 

in terms of what needs to be done, gates's 2021 book HOW TO AVOID A CLIMATE DISASTER is an invaluable resource. every congressional staffer in the country should have a copy. it's a system designer's systematic problem solving approach to the actual problem, and the book is his output, which constitutes a policy guide and primer.

 

i think that is like a 10 year project at least and with all the short memories in america it's a tough slog. it's difficult if not impossible to put faith in the system and the people in it. are there some good people in the mix? sure. there's some people there full of righteous indignation who have the right ideas but not the know how or broad support to get things done. also, that corporate swing hits both parties. the dems are often just as complicit in bullshittery and shenanigans when it comes to making laws that only the law makers and industry lobbyists can understand.  the system is broken. i'm not totally pessimistic but even if by some miracle everything swings one way towards the left and the dems manage not to go around in circles watering down every bit of legislation that's worth a damn.. that we're still in for a wild wild ride with climate as it is right now and it feels like it's starting to gather momentum and a head of steam to really spawn some chaos. 

i don't put a lot of faith in billionaires to levy positive change or have the greater good in their hearts when they're taking on whatever project they're in a twist about. they're often self serving and just dumping money into their own foundations instead of paying taxes.  it's quite often counter productive or takes on a problem that could be solved by other means. 

congress making long term climate legislation that actually matters is a pipe dream maybe. it's becoming more and more clear that doing the right things on climate change will take a lot of courage to throw out the rule book and throw some industries under the bus. which means throwing some big donors under the bus. not to mention all the asshole billionaires like the koch brothers who are not going to go quietly. 

there's things that would curb some of the greenhouse gasses that wouldn't require cutting the arms and legs off capitalism and the free market economy but to really make a difference and save those most at risk it's looking like we're going to have to tear up highways and build highspeed rail and change american culture from rolling coal big trucks to actual community and giving a shit about random strangers.. 

one way or another there will be people in the streets before anything changes one way or another and if things are going to change for the better there will be people fighting against it every step of the way. 

edit: one way to think about it.. when obama got in office in the midst of a total economic collapse they did a bunch of things that likely saved the economy.. however, they never prosecuted anyone. they didn't send anyone to jail. why?  the justice dept had done it in the past many times. the savings and loan scandals of the 80s.... the justice dept charged people with fraud and all kinds of things and sent people to jail. they held people accountable for all the things they did.. and not just peons but people high up the food the chain. there's books about and one of the lawyer tax account dudes who worked with the prosecutors spoke up during the obama years and very loudly asked "WTF?? this is fraud and we should be sneding people to jail amd making real reforms".

and dems had all 3 branches of government and could've done what they wanted to do but they didn't.  

another example is healthcare.. which i tell ya.. i'm grateful for what we got because w/o it i'd be super fucked.. but when it started.. when they started w/the idea of what they wanted it was "universal healthcare/medicare for all/single payer source" type of system.. then they spent forever watering down every aspect of it and what we got was the ACA.. a mandate for people to buy coverage, a medicaid expansion, subsidies so people can better afford healthcare and insurers unable to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions.. and all those things are big deals.. but it's not anything close to universal coverage and single payor source system.  it's basically funneling money to private insurers.

and again.. it's a step forward and big step at that.. but it's a watered down version of what everyone hoped for. so, the dems getting control and doing something meaningful to fight climate change.. well, i wouldn't expect it to go much differently.. the bar will be high and they'll come in somewhere in the middle... and that's even optimistic and depends on serious efforts and the dems somehow ending up in charge and being able to beat the inevitable court cases that end up in the supreme court... which will what it is for decades. 

so, imo the thing that needs to happen is a general strike, people in the streets and desperate action... here in the usa that means it's not going to happen until the average person has their world turned upside down... and by then will it be too late?

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by ignatius

[zlemflolia]

6 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

yeah. in the US we pass some climate legislation, try to pass more that nearly passes but doesn't, and don't even try on stuff we know doesn't have a chance. that range can move. it doesn't take much for things to shift, sometimes. it's becoming more and more recognized that the senate filibuster is an archaic excuse for inaction and it's unconstitutional. both parties routinely bypass it when necessary. a couple years ago the dems just went and tried to pass a rules change that would have allowed them to pass the Freedom to Vote/John Lewis Voting Rights legislation. 2 votes - manchin and sinema, sunk it. 

good legislation is possible by voting democrat. actually, this is a crucial part of the solution, so i'm glad you brought it up. policy is necessary. that's why it's so important to vote for democrats. the republicans transparently serve the oil industry. donations cross the aisle but proportionally it's much more on the republican side, as measured on open secrets 

investing in the needed innovation, updating the grid and other infrastructure, removing subsidies for oil! etc - all possible in capitalist USA minus fox "news" 

read marx lib, your false optimism is only useful to uphold the status quo, wow what a pathetic statement "just vote blue" as if they're capable of getting anything whatsoever done or even want to attempt to make things better, biden himself said he would veto medicare for all if it was on his desk, and you're shilling for these right wing fascists as if they pose any real threat to majority capitalist rule, you just hope for bourgeois democrat greenwashing, democrats not only have no bite, they don't even have any bark, they are worse than useless

[may be rude]

 

the above is sculpted horse shit

 

the above account is a disinfo account, as i've said for years

weird fucker doing info work for who knows who. my guess is china

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by trying to be less rude

[Walter Ostanek]

I mean, I agree that capitalism is almost designed to fail miserably at solving problems like this, or any other where there's little prospect of the solutions being near-term profitable. Theoretically a Chinese type  system should be able to weather the storm (lol?) far better given that they have the ability to steer their economy. Though judging them by their own actions they're not really bothering - their oft-touted, supposedly miraculous rollout of renewables is dwarfed into meaninglessness by their continued expansion of coal

 

As for the above fine fella, it's classic campism, claiming to be socialist while copypasting vapid propaganda from overtly fascist regimes, just check out anything he's ever said about Ukraine

[zlemflolia]

18 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

 

the above is sculpted horse shit

 

the above account is a disinfo account, as i've said for years

weird fucker doing info work for who knows who. my guess is china

 

ur a fool and u dont even know me

[zlemflolia]

15 hours ago, Walter Ostanek said:

I mean, I agree that capitalism is almost designed to fail miserably at solving problems like this, or any other where there's little prospect of the solutions being near-term profitable. Theoretically a Chinese type  system should be able to weather the storm (lol?) far better given that they have the ability to steer their economy. Though judging them by their own actions they're not really bothering - their oft-touted, supposedly miraculous rollout of renewables is dwarfed into meaninglessness by their continued expansion of coal

 

As for the above fine fella, it's classic campism, claiming to be socialist while copypasting vapid propaganda from overtly fascist regimes, just check out anything he's ever said about Ukraine

no quotes how surprising

ur really attacking chinas renewable development and energy usage when they primarily export? they were forced into this kind of position by capitalist nations

[Walter Ostanek]

10 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

no quotes how surprising

ur really attacking chinas renewable development and energy usage when they primarily export? they were forced into this kind of position by capitalist nations

...capitalist countries, of which they are one? And forced precisely how? Everything they need for an effective energy transition can be found within their own borders

What matters is that CO2 emissions decrease. It doesn't matter to the atmosphere if the energy thereby generated goes towards manufacturing stuff to be exported or not - though it does wipe the greenwash right off of Europe's green credentials!

It doesn't matter how many wind turbines a country builds if their CO2 emissions are still increasing. I'm not out to demonise China (inb4 sarcastic quotemine of that one sentence), just point out that there is no basis to put them on a pedestal - and if anything, on account of their theoretically more favourable economic setup and their exceptional endowment of the metals required for low-carbon tech, I see their behaviour thus far as a tragic missed opportunity

 

[ignatius]

12 minutes ago, Walter Ostanek said:

...capitalist countries, of which they are one? And forced precisely how? Everything they need for an effective energy transition can be found within their own borders

What matters is that CO2 emissions decrease. It doesn't matter to the atmosphere if the energy thereby generated goes towards manufacturing stuff to be exported or not - though it does wipe the greenwash right off of Europe's green credentials!

It doesn't matter how many wind turbines a country builds if their CO2 emissions are still increasing. I'm not out to demonise China (inb4 sarcastic quotemine of that one sentence), just point out that there is no basis to put them on a pedestal - and if anything, on account of their theoretically more favourable economic setup and their exceptional endowment of the metals required for low-carbon tech, I see their behaviour thus far as a tragic missed opportunity

 

also, china is no less dysfunctional that any other country.. or perhaps worse in some ways. the recent floods were worsened because so much drainage work was done in a very half assed way or outright fraudulently. there's documented problems with things like drains that are just grates in the ground that don't go anywhere and stuff like that. the appearance of work being done but not actually done. there's lot's of corruption and it extends down to the bottom. not saying the flooding would've been not as bad or anything like that but it surely didn't help that so much was done poorly or not at all... and i imagine that kind of thing is pervasive in their infrastructure. lot's of corners cut. doesn't inspire confidence.  but also we need to think about the scale of the place. so many massive cities that in the USA or anywhere else would be the largest city in the country but over there it seems like there's dozens of cities with 20 million people living in them. 

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, Walter Ostanek said:

...capitalist countries, of which they are one? And forced precisely how? Everything they need for an effective energy transition can be found within their own borders

What matters is that CO2 emissions decrease. It doesn't matter to the atmosphere if the energy thereby generated goes towards manufacturing stuff to be exported or not - though it does wipe the greenwash right off of Europe's green credentials!

It doesn't matter how many wind turbines a country builds if their CO2 emissions are still increasing. I'm not out to demonise China (inb4 sarcastic quotemine of that one sentence), just point out that there is no basis to put them on a pedestal - and if anything, on account of their theoretically more favourable economic setup and their exceptional endowment of the metals required for low-carbon tech, I see their behaviour thus far as a tragic missed opportunity

 

you think china manufactures just about everything for the rest of the world out of the goodness of their heart? no it's a strategy they were forced into to avoid being destroyed by the US like the USSR was. 

[cichlisuite]

study basic engineering and practice hand-working, invest in self-sufficiency, learn plants and their uses, grow and herd your food, repair, reuse, walk, cycle, learn terrain and water and be cautious around new-agers, astro-vangelists or whatever, idk, play less games... this is a lot to change, and we don't all want to, what do you live for? but it can be a generational thing, a long goal (we used to do that for a long time, and very well, too). this is hard to do. it's probably as hard, as it is to turn the entire 'system'.

one can think like an ant, and wait for the queen to make a decision, and remain an ant. or one can think like a free-will individual connected into a larger organism.

Edited August 31, 2023 by cichlisuite

[ignatius]

3 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

you think china manufactures just about everything for the rest of the world out of the goodness of their heart? no it's a strategy they were forced into to avoid being destroyed by the US like the USSR was. 

lol. i mean.. there's plenty of blame to go around.. anyway.. have you checked out the adam curtis docs? the last couple would probably interest you. they go into a lot of those ideas about china and russia. 

here's a playlist of trauma zone on youtube. 7 episodes. 

and. i can't get you out of my head which is 6 parts i think.. all in full on youtube. you'd probably dig these if you haven't watched them already. there's a lot about china in it that was new information for me.. you are probably more acquainted with this history and the people involved. i found it pretty fascinating. 

 

[prdctvsm]

[Alien Sugar]

The math on my mind!

Edited September 1, 2023 by Alien Sugar

[Alien Sugar]

Hi Scores. That's all were thinking.

[Walter Ostanek]

19 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

you think china manufactures just about everything for the rest of the world out of the goodness of their heart? no it's a strategy they were forced into to avoid being destroyed by the US like the USSR was. 

Fucking lol, and there I was thinking that they did it because it was highly profitable!

[Walter Ostanek]

15 hours ago, prdctvsm said:

 

Spoiler

 

I genuinely expect to live to see a time when serious swaths of Australia are literally uninhabitable. Also probably good chunks of the US southwest