cwmbrancity Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 btw its the incompetence and short sighted vision of New Labour which has created this situation more than any other which party has supplanted Labour across Scotland? why? a generation-defining recession, devolution as a token gesture, well-organized SNP @ ground level, Islington New Labour elites wrong footed by attention on foreign wars, their own legacies of greed & Mr Tony B.Liar's abortion of transition to Broon add identity politics built along racial parallels, the promotion of false hope & stubborn-headed leadership by N Sturgeon, voila and we all hate the English lets face facts but only when it comes to sport, its rarely personal except when it comes to aspects of embedded class structures & the wealth divide @ an all time high (generational as well as regional) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricone RC Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Doesn't irk me at all, like I say I find history fascinating, I just see it as totally irrelevant to modern British > Eng/Scot/Welsh relationship, least of all in our modern age of global migration. For proof, see how utterly dominated ScotNat chatter is by economic and political notions; how Westminster ignores Scotland and holds it back, how Scotland has drifted away from rUK politically and should separate to defend its social inclusivity and social democracy, etc etc. And I want Scotland to separate for similar reasons - to see if they can achieve political and economic success on their own. Maybe they can't, but I want them to have the chance. And the inverse is the same - pro-union people are overwhelmingly making arguments based on economics. Almost noone is advocating or criticizing Scottish independence on ethnic/racial lines (thank fuck!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 If you think nationalism, based on ethnic notions of identity, has next to no relevance in this context then i think we'll have to agree to disagree Of course the SNP are vying for an economic "blueprint" for better living standards, if they couldnt manage that they'd be redundant. But underpinning this is the core mechanism that drives most nationalist/separatist movements which is culture, ethnicity and blood/land rights. See Catalan independence, Basque separatism, or even Breton nationalism where suppression of language & culture pushes people who identify within these cultures further to the frame of mind of "what if we could decide for ourselves?". I think Sturgeon has been v v canny & manipulative, foregrounding economic self-determination, but do i agree with her? Not at all The problems have been compounded by Brexit & Scottish voters being majority pro-EU remainers, so its not the jackbooted, goosche-schteppen of Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, but its still routed & framed along lines of ethnic difference, ie: exclusion/incorporation based on national identity. i wish we could all get along, but there are deep seams of division across Britain today & as Brexit misfires we could all still be scratching our collective heads a few years from now still wandering wtf. Parts of it are directly linked to ethnic notions of difference formed by past migrations into these islands, population clearances, political ineptitude & SNP opportunism of claiming that they and they alone can improve the lot of future generations. But as you yourself identified with the Welsh Assembly, if the ruling majority who run said political centers are inept, what then? Scuse my own tone yesterday, bad day @ the coal face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricone RC Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Parts of it are directly linked to ethnic notions of difference formed by past migrations into these islands I just don't get that attitude, though. Everyone knows at least some Dark Age and Middle Ages history, but I've never come across anyone IRL in England, Scotland or Wales who seriously holds the view that it is actually relevant to modern political decisions (not even Limmy when he's not having a rant). At least no one who isn't also racist. Because it's totally incompatible with modern immigrant societies. You can't (for example) call for an independent Wales on the basis of combined ethnic and economic arguments, because should you get your wish and an indie Welsh economy booms, there'd be an influx of migrants that would be just as damaging to Welsh ethnic identity as English domination ever was. I know a few Plaid voters, and their arguments are economic and language-related (but not ethnic-related). How could they be want an ethnic homeland when their neighbours are Pakistani? At least, without being racist? Likewise all the Scotnats I know talk about Scotland's civic, inclusive nationalism in contrast to Tory/UKIP hostility to foreigners. It's different in other parts of the world e.g. Brittany, but they have the luxury of being ethnically homogenous. Do you think the same arguments would fly if the Breton population was 20% North African? No, they'd be using purely economic arguments for independence etc. There has been shit tonnes of injustice, including such delights as the Highland Clearances and the Welsh Not (which my grandparents used to receive). And those were the actions of the British state apparatus which, alongside the various Empire shenanigans, the lack of any clear political break between those times and ours, the continuing desperation to cling to World Power status, and the domination of the political and economic elite by a tribe of public-school inbreds (who see themselves as British), are the reasons I wouldn't lift a finger to prevent the UK from breaking up. Maybe nothing good will come of its breakup, but at least Scotland will have a chance to dispense with all that crap and try something different. And maybe just maybe, it would be the kick-in-the-balls that England and/or Wales need to start restructuring themselves. Can't hurt any more than Brexit will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amen Warrior Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Parts of it are directly linked to ethnic notions of difference formed by past migrations into these islandsI just don't get that attitude, though. Everyone knows at least some Dark Age and Middle Ages history, but I've never come across anyone IRL in England, Scotland or Wales who seriously holds the view that it is actually relevant to modern political decisions (not even Limmy when he's not having a rant). At least no one who isn't also racist. Because it's totally incompatible with modern immigrant societies. You can't (for example) call for an independent Wales on the basis of combined ethnic and economic arguments, because should you get your wish and an indie Welsh economy booms, there'd be an influx of migrants that would be just as damaging to Welsh ethnic identity as English domination ever was. I know a few Plaid voters, and their arguments are economic and language-related (but not ethnic-related). How could they be want an ethnic homeland when their neighbours are Pakistani? At least, without being racist? Likewise all the Scotnats I know talk about Scotland's civic, inclusive nationalism in contrast to Tory/UKIP hostility to foreigners. The Welsh bang on about their ethnoancestral roots probably more than any other group in the UK, and they're racist as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublename Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Irrelevant data point - My 7th grade math teacher was Welsh and ranted p frequently about hatred of the English. Great teacher though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soloman Tump Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Irrelevant data point - My 7th grade math teacher was Welsh and ranted p frequently about hatred of the English. Great teacher though. Lol yep, I remember a field trip to Brecon back in the school days, and one of our teachers used to joke about us getting shot at with bows and arrows from the hills. "That's why there are so many castles on the borders" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 castles are Norman French, the Marcher Lords etc, subsequently adopted & adapted by England's Longshanks, hence why Wales has more than just about anywhere else and certain border towns in Englandshire still have antiquated by-laws where its legal to murder Welsh intruders on certain land-marks (Hereford cathedral might be one?) with bow & arrow after a certain time of day LOL Parts of it are directly linked to ethnic notions of difference formed by past migrations into these islands I just don't get that attitude, though. Everyone knows at least some Dark Age and Middle Ages history, but I've never come across anyone IRL in England, Scotland or Wales who seriously holds the view that it is actually relevant to modern political decisions (not even Limmy when he's not having a rant). At least no one who isn't also racist. Because it's totally incompatible with modern immigrant societies. You can't (for example) call for an independent Wales on the basis of combined ethnic and economic arguments, because should you get your wish and an indie Welsh economy booms, there'd be an influx of migrants that would be just as damaging to Welsh ethnic identity as English domination ever was. I know a few Plaid voters, and their arguments are economic and language-related (but not ethnic-related). How could they be want an ethnic homeland when their neighbours are Pakistani? At least, without being racist? Likewise all the Scotnats I know talk about Scotland's civic, inclusive nationalism in contrast to Tory/UKIP hostility to foreigners. It's different in other parts of the world e.g. Brittany, but they have the luxury of being ethnically homogenous. Do you think the same arguments would fly if the Breton population was 20% North African? No, they'd be using purely economic arguments for independence etc. There has been shit tonnes of injustice, including such delights as the Highland Clearances and the Welsh Not (which my grandparents used to receive). And those were the actions of the British state apparatus which, alongside the various Empire shenanigans, the lack of any clear political break between those times and ours, the continuing desperation to cling to World Power status, and the domination of the political and economic elite by a tribe of public-school inbreds (who see themselves as British), are the reasons I wouldn't lift a finger to prevent the UK from breaking up. Maybe nothing good will come of its breakup, but at least Scotland will have a chance to dispense with all that crap and try something different. And maybe just maybe, it would be the kick-in-the-balls that England and/or Wales need to start restructuring themselves. Can't hurt any more than Brexit will. history cap - the Dark Ages werent "dark", its a period marking the feudal construction of English identity, beset with a complex and under-researched archaeological battle-field record, further complicated by Welsh bardic/literary sources that suggest something v v bloody archaeologists now term it Post-Roman Britain, to escape the lack of illumination/cultural darkness connotations, but unfortunately only niche areas of academia explore the processes of migration between 500-750AD even Oxford & Cambridge archaeo-geneticists cant pinpoint exactly how "British" the English are, some say a 5% genetic influx contributing to today's populace, ie an elite take-over, others argue for a much more stark 50% displacement marked by 3-4 centuries of warfare......who is right here is anyone's guess, but its not the facts that interest a lot of people, its out-dated notions of national identity we agree on the foregrounding of economics & Scottish indepedence voting, no middle class group would even consider the risks if an economic argument wasnt convincing or projected by a political party as such & if the SNP couldnt win over its own middle classes it couldnt (and wouldnt) have get a foothold but it very much does its the cynical manipulation of aspiration, of hope, of "trying something different", ultimately of agency, that i dont like, because its v v similar to Brexit's campaign of "if we do this, we can then grow in this unconstrained wonderland of hope" remember the iconic Obama tag of "hope"? v similar manipulation of emotive streaming i'm not saying the cultural identity argument is acceptable, only that tartanization/independence ref is absolutely underpinned by nationalist notions of cultural separation justifying political separation if your perspective is skewed along these lines & you have no other political representation preaching hope & alternative futures, where Labour has dissolved in terms of representation across Scotland (and remember how many New Labour goons were Scots), you end up where we are today it happened with Brexit & comparable forces underpin this debate too i had a Cymru/Cymraeg Dad & an Irish catholic Mum, so i'm a British unionist but Irish republican, try getting yer head round that schism if it makes any sense! The old man was Plaid/FWA to the core, despised Labour's record in Wales and wanted independence, something we could never agree on for basic economic reasons. Me Ma hated the "men of blood" on either side during The Troubles, so always looks to convivial solutions after Brexit & in light of Sturgeon's belligerence, i'd prefer the union to remain, not to dent Scottish aspirations just a fairly basic together/stronger perspective you might not agree with identity politics built on ethnic notions of difference formed by past migrations into these islands, that it is indeed racist, but its real in the minds of too many people to ignore and these people will vote emotively, with views shaped by nationalist rhetoric, of difference, that are almost impossible to avoid in the current climate i'd be interested to see the % stats of Scottish Asians and other minorities who voted pro-independence last time round, or any research on these folks, simply because the economic arguments would appear the more likely focus of their reasoning we have different, slightly irreconcilable views, so all i've tried to attempt to assuage here is that, by recognizing the roots of identity politics, more constructive political processes can be achieved, ie more devolved power to the Scottish Assembly, rather than full blown national separation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricone RC Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Oh I get that there's racist nutters. I just meant that I don't see ethnic-style nationalism as remotely respectable, I got the impression that you did but I guess I'm wrong (blame being drunk lol). That's part of why I have a fairly favourable view of the Scotnat movement (above and beyond the SNP) which seems to be built on a far more inclusive, civic patriotism instead of anything ethnic (ok perhaps I'm wrong there, it's entirely possible that I'm living in a bubble, most of the people I talk Brit politics with these days are either batty but fairly innocuous relatives, or ivory-tower arseholes doing history and politics doctorates) As for Britishness I just see the whole concept as irreconcilably tainted by tonnes of dodgy history stuff - not because modern people should be blamed in any way for said history stuff, but because the state itself hasn't really reformed at all since those times. In my ideal world the British Isles would be a bit like Scandiwegialand - a bundle of friendly independent states that don't pretend that they still Rule the Waves, and governed by institutions that represent a total break with the old British ones. That's assuming there's no massive economic shitstorm entailed in making the transition, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricone RC Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 castles are Norman French, the Marcher Lords etc, subsequently adopted & adapted by England's Longshanks, hence why Wales has more than just about anywhere else and certain border towns in Englandshire still have antiquated by-laws where its legal to murder Welsh intruders on certain land-marks (Hereford cathedral might be one?) with bow & arrow after a certain time of day LOL lol yes Hereford is one of them One of my fave dumb ancient laws is the King's Men of Archenfield - if you were born in the hills along the west fringe of the Mighty Shire you were expected to act as a front and rear guard to any Plantagenet army that felt like rolling through, and in return you were allowed to fish salmon from the Wye and its tributaries hassle-free. It was apparently still on the books until the 19th century. I'd probably count as one if it was still around. Also in that area are the Forest of Dean Freeminers, which do still exist Fuck, one of the things I really miss about the area is the castles. I used to live within a few hours' cycling of at least 10 ruins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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