Finding fitting chords when you lack piano skills/knowledge

[Polytrix]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'd like a bit of musical theory help I suppose - but more in a practical approach.

 

I generally think I have a good ear for finding a sound in the overall key of my composition. I am more of a guitar player than keys so I find it hard transferring that knowledge to the layout of my midi keyboards and making chords as I would with guitar.

 

What's the best approach when you really don't know how to 'make' chords to fit your tune?

 

I tend to sort of bash about and experiment with shapes and I can locate individual keys or perhaps the tonic (I think that's what you call it) notes of the chords I can hear in my head but then I get stuck as I don't know how to effectively build around that.

 

If I knew scales which included the notes I would like to build around would that be the way to form chords?

 

All help appreciated.

[PhylumZunami]

just listen to the song over and over again until you can come up with a future melodic pattern in your head that works and attempt to lay a structure down for it and then muck about with knobs and write scary minor chord riffs

[logakght]

http://www.amazon.es/Theory-Computer-Musicians-Michael-Hewitt/dp/1598635034

[Polytrix]

Thanks :) Book looks good.

[maitake]

http://www.mucoder.net/en/tonespace/

 

http://www.codefn42.com/chordz/index.html

[Polytrix]

Thanks guys. I'm a bit weary of using those vsts that generate chords for you as I'd like to figure out a method that works for me without relying on the trickery on those plugs.

 

Can you confirm as to if the above vsts are also explanatory i.e. you can see how they work shit out for you based on scales etc?

 

Cheers

[Klopjob]

vsts that generate chords for you

 

What would be the fun in that? I've heard of people using software which randomly generates drum patterns too.

 

Its not enough that music is now the easiest its ever been to make, but now computers are practically writing the music for some musicians.. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

[Polytrix]

 

vsts that generate chords for you

 

What would be the fun in that? I've heard of people using software which randomly generates drum patterns too.

 

Its not enough that music is now the easiest its ever been to make, but now computers are practically writing the music for some musicians.. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

 

 

 

Yeah, I kinda agree to an extent hence not using those plugins but I can equally see how they'd be useful for someone like me with very basic musical theory. I tend to be able to find what I'm after it just takes a lot of time and experimentation bashing about on the midi keyboard. I suppose it's how these things are used though right...if it's the missing key in an otherwise unique composition I can't see myself hating on a track that's used vsts like this.

[sweepstakes]

I tend to chop up samples of songs with chords I like, or even just sounds with weird harmonics like squeaking doors, and then fill in the gaps, maybe remove the original sounds if they no longer fit. Pretty easy to get creative just using your ears this way. Kind of the opposite direction from your approach though.

[poblequadrat]

usually what I do is I keep a sequence running and tweak as needed. this is a good method because you can choose the rhythm in advance and that suits my workflow at least

 

also I often use other people's melodies as a starting point because i'm an idiot

 

edit: i do have a piece of paper with progressions, intervals and scales written down, pretty useful too and you end up remembering the stuff you use the most.

i also use a guitar and then count the frets, which is pretty lame too because i should've learnt the notes by know, but hey

[sweepstakes]

I often use other people's melodies as a starting point because i'm an idiot

I think everybody does one way or another. There's the direct, easy way ("steal"), or the roundabout, painstaking way ("borrow").

[poblequadrat]

Well, I hope so! I even keep a little notebook with me and when I hear something I like I write down "the bass from X song", and then when I get home I sequence it and turn it into something else... but usually I think it's rather blatant lol.

[Audioblysk]

For transcribing guitar to piano without too much music theory knowledge, I have used two methods.

 

1) Play each individual note in the chord one at a time and find it on the piano, record each note into whatever midi you're using and then muck with the timing, rhythms, and voicings.

 

2) If it's simple, I'll grab a guitar I can just patch into the audio interface and loosely tie a sock around the top of the neck, making a mute that is harsh enough to dampen the sustain, but loose enough to be recognized for individual notes. Record whatever simple thing it is, convert to midi in Live 9 and then mess about with the sustain of the chord or part. This method is awesome for thumping out quick bass-lines, leads and simple chords.

 

My gf always laughs at me when I play piano as she was classically trained when she lived in Uzbekistan and Germany. I play with the wrong techniques, but I still can get the job done. It doesn't matter how proficient you are at playing piano if you can make it sound lush and write good tracks utilizing its sound. Another thing I've also noticed is that because I'm somewhat limited in my depth of music theory knowledge - I come up with chord modulations that most of my music theory practicing friends find very interesting because they aren't limited by scales/modes/ect. I just play what feels right.

[peace 7]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'd like a bit of musical theory help I suppose - but more in a practical approach.

 

I generally think I have a good ear for finding a sound in the overall key of my composition. I am more of a guitar player than keys so I find it hard transferring that knowledge to the layout of my midi keyboards and making chords as I would with guitar.

 

What's the best approach when you really don't know how to 'make' chords to fit your tune?

 

I tend to sort of bash about and experiment with shapes and I can locate individual keys or perhaps the tonic (I think that's what you call it) notes of the chords I can hear in my head but then I get stuck as I don't know how to effectively build around that.

 

If I knew scales which included the notes I would like to build around would that be the way to form chords?

 

All help appreciated.

 

Since you play guitar, you know of the shapes of chords-- that is, the shapes your fingers make on the fretboard. You can move that shape around the fretboard (left and right, and up and down) and also move any of the fingers-on-the-chord forwards or backwards on the fretboard, which will result in different chords and different emotional vibez. This concept works the same for keyboard, and if you want to teach yourself what vibez relate to what chords, you can start by experimenting with one note, then just add any other note to it-- moving that extra note higher or lower will result in a different emotional vibe, so you note that in your heart accordingly. The basis of the vibez of all chords can be had with merely 2 notes (double stop on guitar, yo). Further emotional depth can be had by adding a third note (a simple chord), fourth, and so on. But I feel it's most important to get a solid understanding of how 2 notes feel together, because that is the basis of all interaction of more complex chords.

 

And yes-- notes within a scale can form chords which work with the scale, as that is sort of the point, like, "These notes fit together in a vibe-set." If you have notes in some melody or bassline in your track and you want to know scales that fit, you can use an online scale finder.

 

Electronic music is great for experimentation, and I think it's helped me greatly in learning music theory in my heart, due to me not starting with rigid rules of songwriting. So rules can help a lot, but the most important is being able to feeel which notes fit together. But theory does help to more easily write music that is pleasing, because most theory is based on giving pleasing results. Just note that often times the bassline, lead melody, and strings- for example- form chords, even though chords aren't played with one instrument track. So most electronic tracks that have melodic content do use chords in one way or another. (Sometimes using full chords in an instrument track might be too much in electronic music, because there is already so much other shit going on.)

 

Guitar and piano composers tend to "have it easy", as a lot of their music is written with chord progressions as the starting point, which structurally can finish a song. The whole problem of "where do I go next?", is not a tough problem, because the next chord is already worked out-- the lead melodies, rhythm, bass, drums, and lyrics are then written for the next chord. With electronic music, though, I feel it's most important to have a wide musical vocabulary, as that is really the only way to know what comes next interestingly, without being stuck in a songwriting cliche box. Squarepusher is straight up electronic, but his chords and progressions used to be highly jazz influenced. µ-Ziq is straight up electronic, but a lot of his older output was influenced by synth pop, nu wave, etc. Aphex Twin has folk and classical influences. Etc.

 

If one is not yet at a point where whole songs or parts come easily from the heart, I believe the solution is to listen to as much music as possible, of as many genres and cultures as possible. This is the only way forwards in electronic music. The reason why very specific genres like blues, classical, even jazz, haven't changed much in the past 100 years, is because they are limited by the scope of their genre. Blues can easily crossover to jazz for jazzy blues, but once you add bagpipes, taiko drums, sci-fi lazers, operatic singing, and a sample of a helicopter, nobody who owns a blues label would want to release that shit. But an electronic label might release it, cuz it's genius. True IDM is about pure expression with no genre but the genre of heart..... Never forget!!!

[b born droid]

This for me is one of the reasons I like the Push so much, their scaled keyboard is excellent for building chords without having to think which notes you need/want.

[Polytrix]

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I'd like a bit of musical theory help I suppose - but more in a practical approach.

 

I generally think I have a good ear for finding a sound in the overall key of my composition. I am more of a guitar player than keys so I find it hard transferring that knowledge to the layout of my midi keyboards and making chords as I would with guitar.

 

What's the best approach when you really don't know how to 'make' chords to fit your tune?

 

I tend to sort of bash about and experiment with shapes and I can locate individual keys or perhaps the tonic (I think that's what you call it) notes of the chords I can hear in my head but then I get stuck as I don't know how to effectively build around that.

 

If I knew scales which included the notes I would like to build around would that be the way to form chords?

 

All help appreciated.

 

Since you play guitar, you know of the shapes of chords-- that is, the shapes your fingers make on the fretboard. You can move that shape around the fretboard (left and right, and up and down) and also move any of the fingers-on-the-chord forwards or backwards on the fretboard, which will result in different chords and different emotional vibez. This concept works the same for keyboard, and if you want to teach yourself what vibez relate to what chords, you can start by experimenting with one note, then just add any other note to it-- moving that extra note higher or lower will result in a different emotional vibe, so you note that in your heart accordingly. The basis of the vibez of all chords can be had with merely 2 notes (double stop on guitar, yo). Further emotional depth can be had by adding a third note (a simple chord), fourth, and so on. But I feel it's most important to get a solid understanding of how 2 notes feel together, because that is the basis of all interaction of more complex chords.

 

And yes-- notes within a scale can form chords which work with the scale, as that is sort of the point, like, "These notes fit together in a vibe-set." If you have notes in some melody or bassline in your track and you want to know scales that fit, you can use an online scale finder.

 

Electronic music is great for experimentation, and I think it's helped me greatly in learning music theory in my heart, due to me not starting with rigid rules of songwriting. So rules can help a lot, but the most important is being able to feeel which notes fit together. But theory does help to more easily write music that is pleasing, because most theory is based on giving pleasing results. Just note that often times the bassline, lead melody, and strings- for example- form chords, even though chords aren't played with one instrument track. So most electronic tracks that have melodic content do use chords in one way or another. (Sometimes using full chords in an instrument track might be too much in electronic music, because there is already so much other shit going on.)

 

Guitar and piano composers tend to "have it easy", as a lot of their music is written with chord progressions as the starting point, which structurally can finish a song. The whole problem of "where do I go next?", is not a tough problem, because the next chord is already worked out-- the lead melodies, rhythm, bass, drums, and lyrics are then written for the next chord. With electronic music, though, I feel it's most important to have a wide musical vocabulary, as that is really the only way to know what comes next interestingly, without being stuck in a songwriting cliche box. Squarepusher is straight up electronic, but his chords and progressions used to be highly jazz influenced. µ-Ziq is straight up electronic, but a lot of his older output was influenced by synth pop, nu wave, etc. Aphex Twin has folk and classical influences. Etc.

 

If one is not yet at a point where whole songs or parts come easily from the heart, I believe the solution is to listen to as much music as possible, of as many genres and cultures as possible. This is the only way forwards in electronic music. The reason why very specific genres like blues, classical, even jazz, haven't changed much in the past 100 years, is because they are limited by the scope of their genre. Blues can easily crossover to jazz for jazzy blues, but once you add bagpipes, taiko drums, sci-fi lazers, operatic singing, and a sample of a helicopter, nobody who owns a blues label would want to release that shit. But an electronic label might release it, cuz it's genius. True IDM is about pure expression with no genre but the genre of heart..... Never forget!!!

 

 

What an absolutely incredible response!

 

Thank you very much. Thanks also to the other posters, I especially like the tip about recording in guitar parts and converting to midi...I haven't done that yet.

 

I suppose yes, I do have a good sense of the feel of things and have managed to make interesting chords ''following my heart'' and sensation sort of thing but I still get stumped and think, fuck, if only I was a good pianist or if only I could bash out loads of scales quickly on piano to help me build chords that way (tbh - I can only really play the pentatonic/major scales on guitar but I do manage to create interesting chords/harmonies relatively quickly)

 

The piano is still quite a foreign thing to me...I'm not used to the shapes but I REALLY love playing it and experimenting.

 

As ever, you guys are a great help. I will come back to these posts in the future when I find myself stuck.

[maitake]

Re: vsts

 

The two I posted are great learning tools, especially tonespace. It gives you a visual map of how the chords you select lay over scales.

 

It can map chords to one note anchor. The fuck is wrong with that? It's not going to write a song for you.

 

I guess we should stop using sequencers or drum machines too. Christ, they're so easy. All anyone has to do these days to make drum beats is mash a few step sequencer buttons. Where's the fun in that?

[Polytrix]

Re: vsts

 

The two I posted are great learning tools, especially tonespace. It gives you a visual map of how the chords you select lay over scales.

 

It can map chords to one note anchor. The fuck is wrong with that? It's not going to write a song for you.

 

I guess we should stop using sequencers or drum machines too. Christ, they're so easy. All anyone has to do these days to make drum beats is mash a few step sequencer buttons. Where's the fun in that?

 

No complaints from me! Sounds like a good tool, I'll get one.

I actually think Ableton Chord/Scale device do the same but they aren't exactly visual in how they work and don't seem too intuitive to me really. I've messed with them but not sure how I view them.

[maitake]

I mean, is the exact same thing as the chord device in ableton live. Mapping multiple MIDI notes to one anchor note using semitones. Only difference is it gives you the chord names and helps you learn chord structure visually.

 

If anything it makes it super easy to make shit boring chord progressions, more so than anything interesting

I'd feel more guilty using presets personally

[Polytrix]

Fair enough! I'm really interested in all these mad jazz scales..jazz guitar chords sound so nice.