Guest Rabid Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Can anyone help me out with some guides/advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mrx Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 http://www.dolmetsch.com/theoryintro.htm this link has been posted many times and is a great source of information. I found it very helpful to play all the lessons/examples on an instrument rather than entering it in a sequencer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rabid Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Haven't seen that before, bookmarked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hahathhat Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 i prefer music practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modey Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 i prefer music practice well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest naos Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 yeah, or piano lessons. playing mozart, beethoven, bach... you can learn a lot by reading theory books and playing famous sonatas and concertos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcock Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 im taking up compositional technique as a second study at uni and i cant wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 yeah, or piano lessons. playing mozart, beethoven, bach... you can learn a lot by reading theory books and playing famous sonatas and concertos! A portion of Bach's music was written for his keyboard students, actually. So some of his music is fantastic to both learn to play and listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acid1 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 After spending quite a few years writing music with no music theory knowledge at all and doing things by ear, I finally took some time to figure out enough music theory so that I could find ways out of common musical problems. The lame conclusion I came to was after learning the basics of chords types, inversions, and how they are related to scales I found I could get by just fine with a piano scales grimoire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 whats a piano scales grimoire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 i think hes talking about something like this - http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/The-Keyboard-Grimoire/93846 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 oh. I think I'll get that book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Learn all the scales, circle of fifths, extended chords and jazz chords, including jazz progressions that should get you started.. don't bother with the score reading stuff, there's too much of it in music theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 that should get you started? Thats a lot of shit to learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awepittance Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 learning some scales should come first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mrx Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I found this helpful site on the renoise forums. It gives you a selection of chords that you can play based on what scale you pick. The chord selection is pretty limited at the moment, but I think that this is pretty helpful for people who can't figure it out on their own. http://sf.sva.ee/ "that should get you started? Thats a lot of shit to learn" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I found this helpful site on the renoise forums. It gives you a selection of chords that you can play based on what scale you pick. The chord selection is pretty limited at the moment, but I think that this is pretty helpful for people who can't figure it out on their own. http://sf.sva.ee/ The biggest problem of these type of chord helper things is that they're wrong. The novelty and power of composition arises when you learn that chords you originally shouldn't use, can be used. And with further knowledge of how various notes and chords color your composition, comes the ability to create unique progressions such as strong resolution after exotic dissonance, and make the music yours rather than a repetition of some chord progression everybody's been using since the Beatles. that should get you started? Thats a lot of shit to learn Damn right it's a lot of shit to learn. Music wasn't invented yesterday, it's filled to the brim with deep history and systems. Why reinvent the wheel? Every bit you learn comes back tenfold, and it's not that difficult once you get past the initial unfamiliarity. The idea is to learn the rules so you can break them. Jazz players are masters of classical theory, their mastery grants them the ability to fuck with it as confidently as they do. Start learning the most common scales by heart: major, minor variations (phrygian, melodic, harmonic), then maybe move onto mixolydian, lydian, locrian etc, see which suits your feelings the best. Don't take scales as boundaries for a composition, they're just guidelines for the emotive qualities their intervals evoke. The circle of fifths is great to learn because in jazz it's often used for substituting chords. Substuting chords with their fifths is a very easy way to color your chord progressions. The interesting effects come when you substitute a chord with it's fifth, and the following chord's fifth, and that chords fifth, into infinity, maybe add the fifth substitute of a wrong chord to a boring progression. See? The possibilities are endless once you learn a few tricks of the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest welcome to the machine Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 ^^^ agreed, it's an amazing subject to learn. I think you have to be careful if you get into theory later, after making music for a long time. The begginings of theory will teach you how the very fundamental's of melodies and patterns are made up, basic major and minor patterns etc. because of this a lot of people learn the first few scales and chords etc and hear fairly boring progressions with simple melodies over the top and think 'my music sounded a lot better when I didn't worry about this stuff'. This may be true, but once you start learning more theory more and more of those wierd chords/sounds you use every day will be clearly explained, theory is a complete book, and if it can be played using the 12 notes we use theory WILL tell you why it sounds the way it does and give you ideas of where to go with it. while learning theory I would recommend leaving it out of your compositions, unless you are practicing something you have learned, until you have a good knowledge of the fundamental principles, then you can start to work out what you have done in previous tracks you have made, and work out how your favourite tracks work theoretically. then it starts to get exciting! The ravenspiral guide is a great simple english introduction to theory that ends up going fairly deep into the core ideas. I wanted to link to the pdf but it seems to be down, i'm sure its hosted somewhere else if you google it! I would suggest similar to others, learn the major scale pattern, learn where the chords of the major scale come from and why, then expand these chords to their parent modes. Once you understand the modes of the major scale and the chords they make and why you are well on the way to understanding enough to make the rest of theory a lot easier to learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Keep in mind that jazz harmony doesn't really have anything to do with electronic music. I found studying traditional harmony and counterpoint helped me write better than jazz harmony ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marf Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Id like to learn about harmony and counterpoint. Where did you leanr it? Ive got the ravenspiral guide and will be reading it soon. Any one used harmony navigator? People don't like these programs but they seem like they would be good to help you learn this stuff. Since we don't really play instruments masterfully thus we don't get to build up a physical muscle memory like most musicians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Id like to learn about harmony and counterpoint. Where did you leanr it? What is it you want to learn about harmony? it's alot about trial and error. After a bit of practice you just learn the intervals, what a note does to a phrase. Can it be done in less notes? Can something similar be achieved with other notes? How would you change it completely yet make it work? This might be somewhat controversial so proceed at your own risk, but I highly suggest sticking to one key for learning. If you stick to A minor for instance, you will begin to understand the roles each key in that scale plays. You'll understand that the B note is the II of the mode, and it's usual function is that it's mostly used as a leading note to the III, but when it gets a more active role you can create unusual statements. It's also the fifth of E, and F# is it's fifth, and it can easily be substituted with those keys. As a chord it creates dissonance since F# isn't part of A minor. The only drawback with sticking to one key is that eventually, no matter which key you use, you'll subconsciously refer to the II as the "B note" of the mode. I got that problem with C major and minor. The fifth of the root or tonic is the "G" no matter which key it is. If you ask me I'll tell you it's the fifth, and what key it is, but in my brain it's the G. When I play an E mode on guitar I envision the white and black keys of C major and minor. As for counterpoint.. It's alot of bells and whistles. The fugue style of conterpoint is filled with strict rules and is incredibly difficult, but the general idea of counterpoint is, create a phrase, repeat that phrase in another octave, another timing or interval. If the phrase moves up 3 keys, create another phrase that moves down the equal amount.. Simple math, really. Anyways.. Sometimes I'm surprised how little electronic musicians in general understand music theory. I'm not pointing fingers, I've just gotten that impression over the course of a few years. So many seem to look at a key or read a mentioned chord, and just go "huh??". Do you expect to make a banging lead sound from scratch without knowing how the synthesizer works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rabid Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 OK so obviously there's a lot of information out there, my problem is lack of motivation. Thanks for all the replies guys, some great posts in here. I might even get around to reading the tl'dr posts eventually. I found this helpful site on the renoise forums. It gives you a selection of chords that you can play based on what scale you pick. The chord selection is pretty limited at the moment, but I think that this is pretty helpful for people who can't figure it out on their own. http://sf.sva.ee/ I found that through StumbleUpon a couple of days ago, it's great since I use renoise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rabid Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 By the way, the reason I want to learn is because I was switched from an AP Music Theory course to regular Music Theory and thus royally screwed over. I wanted to teach myself so I could still take the AP exam but I clearly don't care enough. But thanks for all your help, watmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Id like to learn about harmony and counterpoint. Where did you leanr it? Music school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theSun Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 things like harmony and counterpoint are so open ended, it's like asking how to get the aphex twins drum sound from DAW X. start with diatonic modes, after that you should know what other kinds of stuff you want to pursue, whether you just want a big list of chords or want to start with eastern scales or something else totally different. but srsly after you learn the modes the world of music seems to make a lot more sense. it's essentially a major scale played, starting on different notes. so going through in the key of C maj would be easy, CDEFGABC, then DEFGABCD, then EFGABCDE, etc. it makes more sense playing it on a piano rather than stringed/wind instrument imo. notice how some scales sound happy (major) or notsomuchhappy (minor). you'll see commonalities among scales, for instance the 3rd and 7th note of a scale gives it the most musical meaning in most western cases, if you play a M3 instead of a m3 the scale just sounds terribly off. i'm trying to describe this so that people without any training can read it, so i know there's quite a bit more to it, but in short - learn your diatonic modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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