Religion

[lumpenprol]

oh! I get it now, thanks

[Candiru]

Deu 7:9

 

Know therefore that the PENGUIN thy Penguin, he is Penguin, the faithful Penguin, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.

 

Dude, I fucking love penguins.

[foresense]

if there's a god this is it:

[doorjamb]

wrote a whole thing but it sort of digressed into my personal philosophy, so here's the pertinent bit:

 

If faith were logical, it would be not faith but reason; thus faith is necessarily absurd (Kierkegaard).

 

The reason religion/faith is so successful is, among other things, the very fact that it is absurd. To approach an inherently absurd universe logically is absurd; to approach it absurdly is, paradoxically, less absurd. The absurdity of religion reflects the absurdity of that which it attempts to rationalize.

 

EDIT: so, to answer the OP question ("Seriously, why?"), it's because humans are to a great extent creatures of logic; we rely upon our reason to outthink other species and survive. But our logic is our Achilles' heel, because our intellectual advances have made us capable of comprehending the absurdity of the human experience. As logic fails us in dealing with this absurdity, we are prone to turn to imagination to distance ourselves from the conundrum. By blaming our situation on some proposed (read: invented) imperceptible "Godforce" with unknowable motivations, we absolve ourselves of the need to come to terms with it ourselves—religion is just one of many philosophical defense mechanisms. It owes a great deal of its popularity to its simplicity in that respect, along with aspects like punishment (Hell/persecuting pagans), reward (Heaven/alms & charity), community/team mentality, and [false, but comforting] certainty about the unknown (e.g. death).

[eugene]

why is the universe inherently absurd ?

[doorjamb]

because I have no reason to believe it otherwise. as a logical animal, the only tools at my disposal are my capacity for logic/reason and my capacity to imagine/invent/create. The latter (invention) is not useful here, so I rely upon my reason.

 

edit: also, to claim the universe is not absurd is to ascribe it meaning, which puts the onus on the claimant to demonstrate the origin or nature of that meaning.

[eugene]

if i understand you correctly...i think you're a bit too hasty in calling things that are not yet understood absurd. accumulated knowledge is also a tool at your disposal.

[doorjamb]

indeed, accumulated knowledge is all I have—this I call "experience."

I am not claiming to have all the information (i.e. to know without a doubt that no "Godforce" exists), I am simply saying that faith in something of which one has no experience is nonsensical (so-called religious experiences only count if you can show some evidence to link them to a "holy" source—once you do that, you are positing evidence for faith, and turning faith into reason).

[eugene]

yeah i get that, i was more interested and baffled by your calling the universe absurd.

[doorjamb]

by absurd I mean that the phenomenon of existence (and universe is, by definition, all that exists) is one without discernible cause or purpose. The universe simply "is;" there is no discernible reason for its "is-ness," and this absence of reason is what I call "absurdity."

 

Q: "Why is there something instead of nothing?"

A: "There is something instead of nothing."

[eugene]

generally absurdity means lack of logic not lack of purpose. while universe might not have a purpose or a cause it doesn't mean it behaves illogically.

[doorjamb]

I don't mean it behaves illogically; indeed, we can identify many systems within the all-encompassing category of 'universe' which operate and interact perfectly logically.

 

I think I've found our miscommunication: when I characterize the universe as absurd, I mean that the existence of anything whatsoever is not logical; there is no discernible reason for it. I am not saying the universe's subsystems do not operate logically; if they did not, we would be at a great disadvantage as a logically-minded species.

[eugene]

yeah you got me right, better refer to it as "the existence itself", i guess. i still don't understand why does it have to have purpose or reason behind it to be considered logical though. basically i consider this existence incomprehensible rather than illogical, and our ability to comprehend things continues to develop gradually.

[doorjamb]

arrg this trackpad is making it impossible to type

 

while it's illogical to claim to know for a fact that there is no reason for the universe's existence, the knowledge our species has accumulated through millenia of experience offers no solid evidence to the contrary. One can indeed posit that underlying meaning or purpose might well exist but be, as you say, incomprehensible to modern humans, but that idea only has merit in the arena of speculation. The scientific method is designed to keep one's feet in touch with the known as one "gropes the unknown. "

[Guest chunky]

Book of Common Prayer 1662

 

The Order for the Burial of the Dead.

 

Here is to be noted, that the Office ensuing is not to be used for any that die unbaptized, or excommunicate, or have laid violent hands upon themselves.

The Priest and Clerks meeting the Corpse at the entrance of the Church-yard, and going before it, either into the Church, or towards the Grave, shall say, or sing,

AM the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. St. John xi. 25, 26.

KNOW that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shalt stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another. Job xix. 25, 26, 27.

E brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the Name of the Lord. 1 Tim. vi. 7. Job I. 21.

After they are come into the Church, shall be read one or both of these Psalms following. Dixi, custodiam. Psalm 39.

SAID, I will take heed to my ways: that I offend not in my tongue.

I will keep my mouth as it were with a bridle: while the ungodly is in my sight.

I held my tongue, and spake nothing: I kept silence, yea, even from good words; but it was pain and grief to me.

My heart was hot within me, and while I was thus musing the fire kindled: and at the last I spake with my tongue;

Lord, let me know mine end, and the number of my days: that I may be certified how long I have to live.

Behold, thou hast made my days as it were a span long: and mine age is even as nothing in respect of thee; and verily every man living is altogether vanity.

For man walketh in a vain shadow, and disquieteth himself in vain: he heapeth up riches, and cannot tell who shall gather them.

And now, Lord, what is my hope: truly my hope is even in thee.

Deliver me from all mine offences: and make me not a rebuke unto the foolish.

I became dumb, and opened not my mouth: for it was thy doing.

Take thy plague away from me: I am even consumed by means of thy heavy hand.

When thou with rebukes dost chasten man for sin, thou makest his beauty to consume away, like as it were a moth fretting a garment: every man therefore is but vanity.

Hear my prayer, 0 Lord, and with thine ears consider my calling: hold not thy peace at my tears.

For I am a stranger with thee: and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

0 spare me a little, that I may recover my strength: before I go hence, and be no more seen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son: and to the Holy Ghost;

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be: world without end. Amen.

Domine, refugium. Psalm 90.

ORD, thou hast been our refuge: from one generation to another.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever the earth and the world were made: thou art God from everlasting, and world without end.

Thou turnest man to destruction: again thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday: seeing that is past as a watch in the night.

As soon as thou scatterest them, they are even as a sleep: and fade away suddenly like the grass.

In the morning it is green, and groweth up: but in the evening it is cut down, dried up, and withered.

For we consume away in thy displeasure: and are afraid at thy wrathful indignation.

Thou hast set our misdeeds before thee: and our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

For when thou art angry all our days are gone: we bring our years to an end, as it were a tale that is told.

The days of our age are three-score years and ten; and though men be so strong, that they come to fourscore years: yet is their strength then but labour and sorrow; so soon passeth it away, and we are gone.

But who regardeth the power of thy wrath: for even thereafter as a man feareth, so is thy displeasure.

So teach us to number our days: that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

Turn thee again, 0 Lord, at the last: and be gracious unto thy servants.

0 satisfy us with thy mercy, and that soon: so shall we rejoice and be glad all the days of our life.

Comfort us again now after the time that thou hast plagued us: and for the years wherein we have suffered adversity.

Shew thy servants thy work: and their children thy glory.

And the glorious Majesty of the Lord our God be upon us: prosper thou the work of our hands upon us, 0 prosper thou our handy-work.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son: and to the Holy Ghost;

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be: world without end. Amen.

Then shall follow the Lesson taken out of the fifteenth Chapter of the former Epistle of Saint Paul to the Corinthians. 1 Cor. 15. 20.

OW is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority, and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? and why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? Let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not: for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body, as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead: It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, (for the trumpet shall sound,) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality; then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 0 death, where is thy sting? 0 grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

When they come to the Grave, while the Corpse is made ready to be laid into the earth, the Priest shall say, or the Priest and Clerks shall sing:

AN that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery. He cometh up, and is cut down, like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay.

In the midst of life we are in death: of whom may we seek for succour, but of thee, 0 Lord, who for our sins art justly displeased?

Yet, 0 Lord God most holy, 0 Lord most mighty, 0 holy and most merciful Saviour, deliver us not into the bitter pains of eternal death.

Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts; shut not thy merciful ears to our prayer; but spare us, Lord most holy, 0 God most mighty, 0 holy and merciful Saviour, thou most worthy judge eternal, suffer us not, at our last hour, for any pains of death, to fall from thee.

Then, while the earth shall be cast upon the Body by some standing by, the Priest shall say,

ORASMUCH as it hath pleased Almighty God of his great mercy to take unto himself the soul of our dear brother here departed, we therefore commit his body to the ground; earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall change our vile body, that it may be like unto his glorious body, according to the mighty working, whereby he is able to subdue all things to himself.

Then shall be said or sung,

HEARD a voice from heaven, saying unto me, Write, From henceforth blessed are the dead which die in the Lord: even so saith the Spirit: for they rest from their labours.

Then the Priest shall say,

Lord, have mercy upon us.

Christ, have mercy upon us.

Lord, have mercy upon us.

UR Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Priest.

LMIGHTY God, with whom do live the spirits of them that depart hence in the Lord, and with whom the souls of the faithful, after they are delivered from the burden of the flesh, are in joy and felicity: We give thee hearty thanks, for that it hath pleased thee to deliver this our brother out of the miseries of this sinful world; beseeching thee, that it may please thee, of thy gracious goodness, shortly to accomplish the number of thine elect, and to hasten thy kingdom; that we, with all those that are departed in the true faith of thy holy Name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in thy eternal and everlasting glory; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Collect

MERCIFUL God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the resurrection and the life; in whom whosoever believeth shall live, though he die; and whosoever liveth, and believeth in him, shall not die eternally; who also hath taught us, by his holy Apostle Saint Paul, not to be sorry, as men without hope, for them that sleep in him: We meekly beseech thee, 0 Father, to raise us from the death of sin unto the life of righteousness; that, when we shall depart this life, we may rest in him, as our hope is this our brother doth; and that, at the general Resurrection in the last day, we may be found acceptable in thy sight; and receive that blessing, which thy well-beloved Son shall then pronounce to all that love and fear thee, saying, Come, ye blessed children of my Father, receive the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world: Grant this, we beseech thee, 0 merciful Father, through Jesus Christ, our Mediator and Redeemer. Amen.

HE grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Ghost, be with us all evermore. Amen.

[sheatheman]

I am a Christian, and I think it's ironic that the majority of a forum of creatives seem so unconcerned with their relationship to the Creator. But I think I know why.

 

A huge failure of the christian church throughout the world is the complete lack of creativity within its communities. We, as creatives, don't want to conform, and this is largely what the Church would have us do.

 

My wife and I are experiencing this now, where we live in Ohio. We're transplants from Texas, and we are both artists. We are thankful for the community we've found here, but we hunger for new ways to serve, new ways to worship, new ways to learn, and it seems the christians here are content with handing out invitation cards to people, singing the same seven or eight songs during worship, and having the exact same structure each bible study. The truth is that I sometimes view the church here as dull and ineffectual.

 

And we sometimes feel a bit like black sheep, like when a chilled silence fell over a conversation as my wife began talking about how she practiced yoga. We feel a pressure to conform to something that isn't true to us, or the talents God gave us, and this is probably much worse for someone who isn't a christian, and why many people here have completely written it off, besides the usual philosophical, scientific, and ethical issues I see expressed here.

 

But the bible says do not conform to the ways of this world (dull christian subculture included), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

 

And do you know what religion actually means? Re-ligio, to reconnect. That one word states that we exist in a state of disconnect, un-wholeness, and that we are always seeking to become whole again. In this regard, religion not only applies to the world's forms of theism, but also all of our philosophers' and scientists' pursuits, as well as our pursuit of creating, of making. In this sense we all have religion, because none of us are satisfied in our oneness, but seek some form of completion.

[doorjamb]

And do you know what religion actually means? Re-ligio, to reconnect. That one word states that we exist in a state of disconnect, un-wholeness, and that we are always seeking to become whole again. In this regard, religion not only applies to the world's forms of theism, but also all of our philosophers' and scientists' pursuits, as well as our pursuit of creating, of making. In this sense we all have religion, because none of us are satisfied in our oneness, but seek some form of completion.

 

Oof. I very much disagree with you here. Science and the creative process are both connected to growth, which does not indicate a state of "un-wholeness," but merely a desire for transcendence (becoming more than oneself). Seeking growth does not equal seeking "completion."

[foresense]

@sheatheman so what's your relation with god? do you want him to do good things? is that why you pray?

 

that probably sounds like I'm trolling..

 

I didn't grow up with these ideas, I was only mildly surrounded by christianity, and probably have different ideas of how the world is connected.. common sense mostly. practically minded. spiritual, in your words religious, sure. I feel strongly connected to my surroundings lots of times.

 

I feel satisfied in my oneness, and feel complete. if I'm up to peoples standards is a very different issue, but I'm cool with my friends most of the time.

 

praying or meditating for me is a bit like wanking, or drugs.. it feels good but something is missing... and you feel a bit unworthy/guilty afterwards? haha sorry sorry. I'm not even hardcore atheist or anything. just spilling some thoughts I have on this... honestly though, the more you do it, the more you lose track of this missing sense, the more it becomes a reality that what you are doing is right.

 

I'm not a purist though, I'm not against any of those things. nothing straight edge about me.. just pointing out my observations.

 

on the other end of the spectrum: scenes of the pope give me chills. I watch in disbelief at television evanglists. but you probably agree with those two so that's okay. I have no problem with your beliefs and kudos for the way you handle them. I just don't believe in the big eye in the sky, and I wouldn't appreciate anyone telling me how I should live my life and/or trying to save my soul.

 

/brain spillage

[lumpenprol]

 

 

If faith were logical, it would be not faith but reason; thus faith is necessarily absurd (Kierkegaard).

 

 

 

great quote (at least the first half). That's why I've always been perplexed by people (like Dawkins) who want to "open the eyes" of religious people (at least, I assume that's his goal, although sometimes it seems it's just to pat himself on the back) - you can't attack something that is inherently non-rational with rationality. It's like oil and water.

 

I guess I feel "non-rationality", properly understood, has value. In terms of being a wellspring of creativity, and in terms of personal growth (humility). Strangely, many religious leaders claim to have a monopoly on the truth, which is what makes them seem absurd. But I really think a "religious impulse" exists inside many (most?) people, whether it's expressed as drug use, or reading fantasy novels, or listening to boards of canada (lol). To deny rituals, art, strangeness, mystery and myth by calling it "irrational" is to deny part of ourselves.

[doorjamb]

it's important not to confuse religion and spirituality. Spiritual feelings are real, experienced phenomena, and therefore to explore them is a perfectly logical pursuit. To believe wholeheartedly in the divine origin of the Bible, for example, without any evidence whatsoever, is not logical.

 

So of course one can attack religion (the irrational) with reason: simply expose its irrationality. This is a different issue for religion than it is for things like drug-taking or fantasy novels because religion actively denies and abhors the exposure of its own irrational nature. It relies too much upon its own authority (remember when some asshole proved the earth wasn't the center of the universe after all?).

 

when we try to make sense of our illogical existential experience with logic, that is the oil and water phenomenon you're talking about. The key is (I believe) to embrace its absurdity and appreciate it for its wonderousness; to consciously accept the experience in all its illogical splendor and become the absurd creatures we really are. _{(that's why I'm arguing about it on watmm)}

 

/threadjack

 

edit; just realized that last bit is kind of what you were getting at, lumpy. I just think the universe has enough real mysteries that it's okay to expose the artificial ones for what they are. for better or worse, religion has played a huge role in keeping mankind vaguely moral throughout history, but I think modern technology and knowledge have made it obsolete and it is now mostly a luxurious crutch.

[lumpenprol]

I'm basically with you there, I wonder though, even in say the Catholic church, how many people are there for "the truth", and how many people are there for the sense of community, or simply for the comfort of the strange rituals they don't really understand. Take for example the wafer and wine business, I love the "transfiguration" element that the wine is actually blood and the wafer flesh - so totally pagan and fantastical. Or the whole "trinity" business. How many people could pretend to understand or explain it? So of course I think if someone says "dinosaurs existed 5000 years ago and were the behemoth from the bible" or "don't use contraceptives" it deserves ridicule. But there's a whole lot of weird stuff "under the hood" of organized religion that is quite interesting.

 

Mostly I find it interesting that we may have come to a point as a race/culture where we kind of resent "the truth" for being so authoritative. I know I do. Of course I love science and contemplating dark matter or the ever expanding universe does give me a rush. But I also like fantastical "escapism" whether in popular media, or by being creative myself. A mapped world is a boring world. To bring up the appeal of Boards of Canada again, I wonder if sometimes we enjoy fantasy because it takes us back to being a kid, when so much was uncharted and full of wonder. I think many people sort of miss that these days, because most of the aspects of our world are so well known. Our own accomplishments/logic have trapped us, so we feel a tension between what we "know" and what we desire.

 

Or maybe I'm full of it.

[lumpenprol]

Also is what made the "X files" so popular I think. The tagline "I want to believe" is sort of the perfect motto for our age, too. Not "I believe", but I want to. In other words, I suffer "reality fatigue" and want to take refuge in fantasy, even though it's an affront to my reason. That's the dilemma in a nutshell.

[sheatheman]

@doorjamb

 

When I say whole, I mean perfection. The bible is about the fall from perfection and the path back. If something is whole, why does it want to be more than what it is? If we were complete, we wouldn't need scientific advancement. We wouldn't need to understand the universe. We seek that knowledge because we think it will improve us. I don't mean any offense, but this scientific growth, something that is "whole" that seeks to transcend, isn't that the heart of what destroys?

 

 

@lumpenprol

 

You, and you Doorjamb, should listen to a sermon by Erwin McManus titled "Faith is nonsense." He talks about how you can't enter into faith with your mind, that it comes from another part of us that most people don't think exists. He even has a series comparing Christianity to major religions, including Atheism, and Catholicism. The series is called "The Truth Between Us", and instead of saying why he is right and everyone else is wrong, he focuses on the places where Christianity meets with those religions. You can find those in the form of a podcast on iTunes. Search "Mosaic Audio Podcast."

 

@missingsense

 

Praying is what keeps me alive spiritually. The bible says "pray without ceasing." I think not praying is denying that I am spiritual. Praying can be about feeling better, but I feel most alive and even powerful when I am praying for someone else. And praying is most importantly about being in community with God.

 

As far as the pope goes, the main problem is the idea that there needs to be someone between everyday people and access to God. You don't need to know anything to pray, because everyone is spiritual, and everyone is made for prayer. Christianity is a mystical religion, and lots of religious people today would cringe at that, but if you actually read through the bible-Moses and the burning bush, turning his staff into a snake, Jesus and the disciples healing people and raising the dead-you really can't get around it.

[kaen]

I don't like religion, the hold it has on the world and how deep its claws are sunk into society by way of setting moral standards on how people should live their lives. I am by no means an atheist, I feel something there in the background, something that both religion and science has yet to explain and I'm OK with that. I don't need to follow a group of people to help me deal with that, I understand many do and that's OK too, just don't encroach on how I do things. I sit back and chuckle at both atheists and theists sometimes, because they are becoming so much a like with their militant way of defining absolutes. There is a god, there isn't a god. Its all the same shit.

[sheatheman]

@kaen

 

So how do you do things? I'm not being sarcastic. Do you try to approach or interact with what you feel in the background, underneath the veil of daily tedium and what culture says the real world is? This is very important, because I believe very deeply that there is a constant effort to keep us blind to the way things really are. It's good that you sense that, but what is the next step? Will you be satisfied dying with just a hunch?