Religion

[joshuatxuk]

freedom of choice,dood

 

I thought when it came to God, everything was predetermined? Or is that different religious views of God based on the argument of determinism versus Free Will?

 

I'm no expert on debating these matters, but I don't see a necessary conflict. If, for example, you think of God as the creator of our reality as a simulation, then he could still be all powerful but not predetermine the outcome of every human choice, right? Of course in the aggregate he would have set up the program, so he knows all the parameters (you can only ever choose between 1 and 2, but never 3, for example), and yet still not know what a person will choose at any given moment.

 

If we assume God's really curious to run this experiment on free will, then it follows that he would pull into the background/disappear after he set things in motion. So in fact, you wouldn't expect to find any evidence that there is a God, he would have hidden himself beyond your means to detect him.

 

Sure, like candiru said, we can judge him as a hypocrite according to his own (moral) laws, if we want. I think that's a much stronger argument than any argument against there being a god. If there is a god, I doubt he would be so crass as to give us a set of rules to follow.

 

That also reminds me that one of the key tennants of Gnosticism is that God of the old testament is the demiurge - a false creator god driven by arrogance and ignorance that stands in the way of gaining knowledge from the true creator. It's one of the many reasons Gnostic Christian sects were deemed heretical and crushed by the Church. While it too is as much of a religious concept as any other monothestic belief, I've always been struck by it's message. Some Gnostics even conclude that the demiurge (God) punished man not because Adam and Eve sinned, but because they sought the knowledge of the true creator. They place the concept of wisdom, personified as Sophia, well above that of the orthodox Christian churches.

 

Just another concept to through in there. Not quite deism, but probably more in that realm of thought. They certainly both reject strict dogma. As for the discussion of free will and predestination, doesn't it vary to a degree within Christian denominations? After all, that's why I've always fucking despised Calvinism.

 

k, now back to just watching this topic...

[lumpenprol]

thats pretty much deism in a nutshell. well said lumpy

 

thanks...of course everything sort of breaks down if we assume god is not only all-knowing but spans all time and space...the notion is as impossible as me trying to wrap my head around a science thread on general relativity or strings or quantum mechanics. By necessity I have to anthropomorphize him, by imagining a kid with an ant farm or something.

 

I liked the idea raised earlier in the thread, that it's like dogs thinking about humans "they are so powerful, they must have a lot of bones." If there is a god I just don't think we can use our puny reason to figure out what he is or what he intends. Inscrutable, and all that...

 

That also reminds me that one of the key tennants of Gnosticism is that God of the old testament is the demiurge - a false creator god driven by arrogance and ignorance that stands in the way of gaining knowledge from the true creator. It's one of the many reasons Gnostic Christian sects were deemed heretical and crushed by the Church. While it too is as much of a religious concept as any other monothestic belief, I've always been struck by it's message. Some Gnostics even conclude that the demiurge (God) punished man not because Adam and Eve sinned, but because they sought the knowledge of the true creator. They place the concept of wisdom, personified as Sophia, well above that of the orthodox Christian churches.

 

Just another concept to through in there. Not quite deism, but probably more in that realm of thought. They certainly both reject strict dogma. As for the discussion of free will and predestination, doesn't it vary to a degree within Christian denominations? After all, that's why I've always fucking despised Calvinism.

 

k, now back to just watching this topic...

 

Interesting stuff!

[Atop]

http://www.zoroastriankids.com/

[gmanyo]

Let me ask yall something very simple.

 

Does the world looked saved to yall?

 

Jesus died for our sins right?

 

Does this world looked saved to anyone?

 

No... This is not a saved, world. And you are delusional to think so, which probably why you believe in a God.

 

This argument is exactly like the Christian arguments that say "look at the world? Does it look random to you? (etc.)".

 

(Gmanyo, I don't mean you, I feel like you've come a long way from the beginning of this thread in terms of your ability to criticize what you previously took to be doctrinal truth. )

 

Thanks. I must say, though, that I haven't changed my thoughts too much since this thread started. I've been pretty doubtful of religion for my whole life. I think I really stay with it because it feels good, and because the people I've met in my church are some of the nicest people ever. It does seem to work pretty well for self-embetterment and being satisfied with life. Not a good reason, but I can't help it. Or maybe it is a good reason because hey, why not?

[Candiru]

That's cool gmanyo, I think a lot of people go to church because they need support from people who mean well. But a lot of Christians use the feeling of well-being and self improvement as a way to say that faith in the Christian god has its merits. The feeling of betterment IS real to them. But people from all walks of life, from many different backgrounds and faiths have turned their lives around with many other religions besides Christianity. So you have to realize that this self improvement and empowerment really came from yourself and the support of other people, not the devotion to a supernatural being.

[SR4]

lumpy:

 

if you cannot possibly comprehend "God" in any way, then why believe in it? Again, it sounds like youve reverted to the "big unknown" position. Why not just say you believe in an unknown, which is far more conceptually descriptive?

[Guest yanG]

Shits simple, life is simple. Humans complicate things. That is all there is to it.

 

We need fancy explanations and want more more and more. We are never satisfied until we have it all, jokes us on us though, all = infinity.

It's actually exaclty the other way. Everything is way more complicated than we can comprehend, so we simplify everything so that it fits in a story we can remember (such as a holy book).

[Guest RandySicko]

I wonder how many of the atheists here have daddy issues. All 3 atheists I know do- 2 dads left, one died.

 

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4221261/k.7709/Atheists_and_Their_Fathers.htm

 

Paul Vitz ftw!!

[skotosa]

Shits simple, life is simple. Humans complicate things. That is all there is to it.

 

We need fancy explanations and want more more and more. We are never satisfied until we have it all, jokes us on us though, all = infinity.

It's actually exaclty the other way. Everything is way more complicated than we can comprehend, so we simplify everything so that it fits in a story we can remember (such as a holy book).

 

If humans didn't exist, the difficulty of nature/life is removed. Explanations for existence is removed and everything is simple again.

[Guest yanG]

I wonder how many of the atheists here have daddy issues. All 3 atheists I know do- 2 dads left, one died.

 

http://www.probe.org...eir_Fathers.htm

 

Paul Vitz ftw!!

It's definitely one of the things that can lead someone to leave religion (or switch to another one). It is rejecting your parents' teachings. Naturally most people who don't have problems with their parents will just embrace the same religion (and political views) as their parents'.

[Guest yanG]

If humans didn't exist, the difficulty of nature/life is removed. Explanations for existence is removed and everything is simple again.

Both complexity and simplicity are human concepts. Without humans there is no point in saying that things are complicated or simple.

[skotosa]

If humans didn't exist, the difficulty of nature/life is removed. Explanations for existence is removed and everything is simple again.

Both complexity and simplicity are human concepts. Without humans there is no point in saying that things are complicated or simple.

 

Exactly its shear irrelevancy of difficulty that makes life basic thus simple.

[Guest Xenblake]

It helps you deal with the mindfuck the is mortality.

 

yeah basically this.

 

Plus it provides a sense community and belonging amongst the followers of a given religion.Your're a member of a "special club"

 

And of course, your club is always better than everyone elses club

[joshuatxuk]

I do think Hitchens put it particularly well when illustrating if he was in the position of Abraham he would have said, "No I will not kill my child. Fuck you." Sums up my position.

 

That might be my favorite quote of Hitchens. I also love Louis CK's breakdown of the story...

 

[Guest RandySicko]

I wonder how many of the atheists here have daddy issues. All 3 atheists I know do- 2 dads left, one died.

 

http://www.probe.org...eir_Fathers.htm

 

Paul Vitz ftw!!

It's definitely one of the things that can lead someone to leave religion (or switch to another one). It is rejecting your parents' teachings. Naturally most people who don't have problems with their parents will just embrace the same religion (and political views) as their parents'.

 

True - but it is a bit more specific than just having problems with a parent and rejecting their teachings or religion. He is stating that once a child or youth is disappointed in and loses his or her respect for their earthly father, then belief in their heavenly father becomes impossible. The "defective father" theory.

 

"There are, of course, many ways that a father can lose his authority and seriously disappoint a child.

Some of these ways-for which clinical evidence is given below - are:

 

1. He can be present but obviously weak, cowardly, and unworthy of

respect - even if otherwise pleasant or "nice."

2. He can be present but physically, sexually, or psychologically abusive.

3. He can be absent through death or by abandoning or leaving the family."

[Guest yanG]

I'm an atheist and I usually try to avoid discussing religion unless provoked. In most cases people's beliefs are so inextricably tied up with self-identity that debating is pointless. You may think you're logically comparing various cosmologies but your words will be received as 'your parents were fools and their culture is worthless', and few people like hearing that.

that is very true

[Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo]

If humans didn't exist, the difficulty of nature/life is removed. Explanations for existence is removed and everything is simple again.

Both complexity and simplicity are human concepts. Without humans there is no point in saying that things are complicated or simple.

 

Untrue. Entropy and a lack of entropy are universal physical properties. The universe constantly seeks higher entropy yet humans and life in general are some of the few exceptions to this rule.

[joshuatxuk]

I wonder how many of the atheists here have daddy issues. All 3 atheists I know do- 2 dads left, one died.

 

http://www.probe.org...eir_Fathers.htm

 

Paul Vitz ftw!!

It's definitely one of the things that can lead someone to leave religion (or switch to another one). It is rejecting your parents' teachings. Naturally most people who don't have problems with their parents will just embrace the same religion (and political views) as their parents'.

 

True - but it is a bit more specific than just having problems with a parent and rejecting their teachings or religion. He is stating that once a child or youth is disappointed in and loses his or her respect for their earthly father, then belief in their heavenly father becomes impossible. The "defective father" theory.

 

"There are, of course, many ways that a father can lose his authority and seriously disappoint a child.

Some of these ways-for which clinical evidence is given below - are:

 

1. He can be present but obviously weak, cowardly, and unworthy of

respect - even if otherwise pleasant or "nice."

2. He can be present but physically, sexually, or psychologically abusive.

3. He can be absent through death or by abandoning or leaving the family."

 

 

Of the friends of mine who are atheists, one has parents who are non-believers, one had a dad who left when he was a kid, and the other is just, well, just a smart and snarky dude. Interesting breakdown in that article, never thought of that as a factor.

 

I'm an atheist and I usually try to avoid discussing religion unless provoked. In most cases people's beliefs are so inextricably tied up with self-identity that debating is pointless. You may think you're logically comparing various cosmologies but your words will be received as 'your parents were fools and their culture is worthless', and few people like hearing that.

that is very true

 

This

[Guest yanG]

Untrue. Entropy and a lack of entropy are universal physical properties. The universe constantly seeks higher entropy yet humans and life in general are some of the few exceptions to this rule.

That said nothing is absolutely simple or complicated, it's relative to our capabilities and experience. Like hot/cold etc.

[Guest RandySicko]

Of the friends of mine who are atheists, one has parents who are non-believers, one had a dad who left when he was a kid, and the other is just, well, just a smart and snarky dude. Interesting breakdown in that article, never thought of that as a factor.

 

Two of the three athiests I know are both very book and "street" smart as well.

 

Another interesting bit on the defective father theory though:

 

-David Hume's father died when he was 2.

-Arthur Schopenhauer's father committed suicide when he was 16.

-Ludwig Feuerbach’s father abandoned family for another woman when Ludwig was 13.

-Sigmund Freud’s father was a coward, sexual pervert, and religious hypocrite.

-Friedrich Nietzsche’s father, a pastor, died when he was 5.

-Jean Paul Sartre’s father died before he was 2.

-Albert Camus lost his father before he was born.

-Thomas Hobbes had a pastor father who abandoned the family.

-Votaire hated his father and changed his family name.

-Bertrand Russell, lost both parents before age 5.

-Madalyn Murray O’Hair tried to kill her father with an 8-inch butcher knife.

[gmanyo]

That's cool gmanyo, I think a lot of people go to church because they need support from people who mean well. But a lot of Christians use the feeling of well-being and self improvement as a way to say that faith in the Christian god has its merits. The feeling of betterment IS real to them. But people from all walks of life, from many different backgrounds and faiths have turned their lives around with many other religions besides Christianity. So you have to realize that this self improvement and empowerment really came from yourself and the support of other people, not the devotion to a supernatural being.

 

I think the opposite. If it's false (still haven't given it up completely) I still want to be convinced that it's true. I want to believe that God is real and Christianity is objectively right. If it's not true, then it loses all value to me; none of the teachings would even make much sense since all of Christianity stems from the outline of human kind's sin and God's sacrifice and complete forgiveness. It'd be completely internally inconsistent to try and use Christianity for "self improvement" if I didn't actually think that there was a supernatural being.

[goDel]

That appears like an half arsed theory. So the idea is that atheists have father issues. But what seems to me the more likely interpretation, is that when you take all those early non-believers into account, there has to be something which drove their ideas into other directions than socially accepted. And although that something might have been a father issue (it could be a lot of things really), that doesn't mean there's an inherent father-issue embedded in atheism. Or that those father-issues would have implications on why atheism is or isn't a valid point of view. That's like saying that if Newton would have had father issues, his ideas on physics lose the value we see in them today.

 

You can also switch the argument the other way around. What could having a religion say about someone? Having a stronger connection with their parents? Perhaps to strong?

 

The irony is that it is Freudian mumbo jumbo. He's using ideas of an atheist to derive his idea. Freud and statistics. Another 'atheist' theory.

[sheatheman]

About God "letting" bad things happen and people sin. In the bible, God does have a plan. But that plan isn't one hundred percent set. People play a role in it-it's dynamic. Take for instance Abraham's plea for Sodom, in Genesis 18. God is planning to destroy it, but Abraham asks, "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?" Eventually God says if ten righteous men are found in the city, he will spare it. The bible is filled with instances of God showing compassion and changing his mind. Why let people sin? You love your freedom, don't you? God loves you and gives it to you.

 

Another thing I heard once, not sure what I think about it, is that God knows everything that exists and that has ever existed, but the future is something that simply does not exist yet, that there are trillions of variables converging every instant to create the future. He can have a very good idea what that future will be, he can plan what that future will be, but it doesn't exist yet, and what doesn't exist cannot be known.

 

This is called open theism. I didn't like that when I first heard it, because it seems like it is limiting God a lot, but maybe that's something some of you will like.

[Guest RandySicko]

That's cool gmanyo, I think a lot of people go to church because they need support from people who mean well. But a lot of Christians use the feeling of well-being and self improvement as a way to say that faith in the Christian god has its merits. The feeling of betterment IS real to them. But people from all walks of life, from many different backgrounds and faiths have turned their lives around with many other religions besides Christianity. So you have to realize that this self improvement and empowerment really came from yourself and the support of other people, not the devotion to a supernatural being.

 

I think the opposite. If it's false (still haven't given it up completely) I still want to be convinced that it's true. I want to believe that God is real and Christianity is objectively right. If it's not true, then it loses all value to me; none of the teachings would even make much sense since all of Christianity stems from the outline of human kind's sin and God's sacrifice and complete forgiveness. It'd be completely internally inconsistent to try and use Christianity for "self improvement" if I didn't actually think that there was a supernatural being.

 

Christianity is not a self improvement program and going to church is not done for support. Church is for receiving the Eucharist and keeping holy the Sabbath. Gmanyo.. if you are having doubts, why not set some time aside for speaking with a priest? He will answer your questions better than even the most well spoken memebers on this board.

[sheatheman]

That's cool gmanyo, I think a lot of people go to church because they need support from people who mean well. But a lot of Christians use the feeling of well-being and self improvement as a way to say that faith in the Christian god has its merits. The feeling of betterment IS real to them. But people from all walks of life, from many different backgrounds and faiths have turned their lives around with many other religions besides Christianity. So you have to realize that this self improvement and empowerment really came from yourself and the support of other people, not the devotion to a supernatural being.

 

I think the opposite. If it's false (still haven't given it up completely) I still want to be convinced that it's true. I want to believe that God is real and Christianity is objectively right. If it's not true, then it loses all value to me; none of the teachings would even make much sense since all of Christianity stems from the outline of human kind's sin and God's sacrifice and complete forgiveness. It'd be completely internally inconsistent to try and use Christianity for "self improvement" if I didn't actually think that there was a supernatural being.

 

You probably know this gmanyo, but Jesus is either crazy, evil, or he is who he says he is. So as christians, we should either follow him with everything, or completely renounce it. Revelation 3:16 "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."