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IDF have told The Times they expect to invade Gaza this weekend.

syd syside

By syd syside
in General Banter

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goDel Grand Master

goDel

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i like to summarize the events that led to the 48 war as a clash of jewish-european ethnocentrism and serious lack of rationality of arabs.

 

No need. It seems to be all written down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishuv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_and_Palestinian_Arab_attitudes_before_1948

 

Serious lack of rationalism of the Arabs? How so?

 

Ben-Gurion

 

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During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

In public, Ben-Gurion upheld the official position of his party that denied the necessity of force in achieving Zionist goals. Unlike Weizmann, Ben-Gurion did have a realistic view of the strong attachment of Arab Palestinians to the Palestinian soil. In 1938 he said: 'In our political argument abroad we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. [...] A people which fights against [what it conceives as] the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily.'[72] According to Flapan Ben-Gurion's assessment of Arab feelings led him to an even more militant line on the need to build up Jewish military strength: 'I believe in our power, in our power which will grow, and if it will grow agreement will come...'.[73]

In the epilogue of Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs Shabtai Teveth evaluates Ben-Gurion's policy towards the Arabs up to 1936 as follows:

A careful comparison of Ben-Gurion's public and private positions leads inexorably to the conclusion that this twenty-year denial of the conflict was a calculated tactic, born of pragmatism rather than profundity of conviction. The idea that Jews and Arabs could reconcile their differences through class solidarity, a notion he championed between 1919 and 1929, was a delaying tactic. Once the Yishuv had gained strength, Ben-Gurion abandoned it. The belief in a compromise solution, which Ben-Gurion professed for the seven years between 1929 and 1936, was also a tactic, designed to win continued British support for Zionism. The only genuine convictions that underlay Ben-Gurion's approach to the Arab question were two: that the support of the power that rules Palestine was more important to Zionism than any agreement with the Arabs, and that the Arbas would reconcile themselves to the Jewish presence only after they conceded their inability to destroy it.

For Ben-Gurion any agreement with the Palestinian Arabs should be based on Arab acquiescence to Zionist hegemony. That would result from Arab recognition of Zionist power and Arab weakness. In talks with Arabs in the 1930s Ben-Gurion tried to impress Jewish strength on them, e.g. by calling for a Jewish state including Transjordan.[65]

[edit]The right to the Land according to Ben-Gurion

Ben-Gurion rarely invoked the ‘historical right’ of the Jewish people to Eretz Israel, but preferred to emphasize the right derived from the Jewish need for a homeland and the universal right to settle and develop uncultivated land.[75]

According to Teveth during many years Ben-Gurion's principal claim was the Jewish right to work the land, especially the eighty percent of Palestine which was uncultivated, and to win it through Jewish labor. "We have the right to build and be built in Palestine". The right to possess a land derived from the continued willingness to work and develop it, and in that respect Jews and Arabs had equal rights.[76] However Ben-Gurion believed that the Arabs would fare well by the Jews’ renewal of the country, because it also meant the renewal of its Arab population. According tp Teveth "the Arabs, themselves incapable of developing the country, had no right to stand in the way of the Jews. In 1918 [ben-Gurion] determined that rights did not spring from the past but from the future, and in 1924 he declared: 'We do not recognize the right of Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is undeveloped and still awaits its builders.'" Ben-Gurion said that the Arabs "have a right only to that which they have created and to their own homes".[77]

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eugene Grand Master

eugene

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http://www.democracy...as_assassinated

 

Someone posted this on facebook, I can't be shitted to listen through 34 minutes. Someone into this stuff listen and see what it's about.

 

Also, if jazz :cerious:

its about an impossible to prove and kinda ludicrous claim that jabari, who was assassinated by idf, was in the process of coming up with a long-term truce with israel, and israel killed him because it didn't want a long term truce (the one that's in the works right now by egypt, usa and others).

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eugene Grand Master

eugene

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i like to summarize the events that led to the 48 war as a clash of jewish-european ethnocentrism and serious lack of rationality of arabs.

 

No need. It seems to be all written down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishuv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Zionism

http://en.wikipedia....des_before_1948

 

Serious lack of rationalism of the Arabs? How so?

 

Ben-Gurion

the arabs were offered a state, rejected it, started a war and lost it, and with it the possibility for a state for a long time.

wouldn't it be more reasonable to accept what was offered and than negotiate for better terms/build a strong enough military to conquer the rest ?

 

what part about ben gurion bothers you ? despite everything he and most of yishuv did accept the partition plan after all, meaning he did accept the existence of arab state along the jewish one.

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goDel Grand Master

goDel

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Posted

the arabs were offered a state, rejected it, started a war and lost it, and with it the possibility for a state for a long time.

wouldn't it be more reasonable to accept what was offered and than negotiate for better terms/build a strong enough military to conquer the rest ?

 

what part about ben gurion bothers you ? despite everything he and most of yishuv did accept the partition plan after all, meaning he did accept the existence of arab state along the jewish one.

 

Accepting what was offered and then negotiating for better terms? That's like signing a contract to buy a house for a certain price with the idea to negotiate for an even better price after already having bought the house... Ehm No, that wouldn't be reasonable. How reasonable was the offer to start with?

 

What part bother me? How about his intentions.

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eugene Grand Master

eugene

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Posted

the arabs were offered a state, rejected it, started a war and lost it, and with it the possibility for a state for a long time.

wouldn't it be more reasonable to accept what was offered and than negotiate for better terms/build a strong enough military to conquer the rest ?

 

what part about ben gurion bothers you ? despite everything he and most of yishuv did accept the partition plan after all, meaning he did accept the existence of arab state along the jewish one.

 

Accepting what was offered and then negotiating for better terms? That's like signing a contract to buy a house for a certain price with the idea to negotiate for an even better price after already having bought the house... Ehm No, that wouldn't be reasonable. How reasonable was the offer to start with?

 

What part bother me? How about his intentions.

but that's not how it worked, did it ? the partition plan was agreed upon internationally, there could always be room for populations/territory exchange. in any case it offered arab palestinians something that they never had before, an internationally recognized state, before that they were ruled by different nations and empires and generally lived a shitty and poor life, mostly as serfs. zerg rushing much better organized jewish yishuv really seems like a better idea to you ?

 

ben gurion was militaristic and didn't take arabs seriously but he did regard the international community highly and generally abided by its terms, at least until the war broke out. his vision wasn't racist in its core but definitely very ethnocentric. there's also a very strong correlation between his lack of belief in cooperation with arabs and their rising opposition to jewish presence, especially after hebron massacre which wasn't treated as seriously as it should have been in that bbc docu, it pretty much gave birth to irgun.

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SR4 Grand Master

SR4

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don't let the talking heads fool you, unless something really horrible happens this flare up will end before the week is over.

 

ironic, considering Finkelstein was the first guy on here that claimed the same thing. Maybe you two have more in common than you think.

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syd syside Grand Master

syd syside

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The Hamas Deputy Speaker calling for Jihad and death to all Jews/Americans (August 2012)

 

Hamas MP and Sheikh/Religious leader says Allah always punished/killed the Jews throughout history and they are being used to do the same (June 2012)

 

Hamas Interior Minister vows to liberate Haifa, Tel Aviv, Ramle/Lod etc (June 2012)

 

Hamas PM Haniya insists that they are different from the PA as they only support armed resistance (March 2012)

 

Hamas PM Haniya claims peaceful resistance isn't an option for Hamas as there's no occupation in Gaza (January 2012)

 

Hamas PM Haniya AGAIN stating Hamas won't stop til all Israel is Palestine (December 2011)

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Guest Adjective

Guest Adjective

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how do you know the translations presented are accurate?

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luke viia Grand Master

luke viia

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http://en.wikipedia....itute#Reception

 

The organization's translations are regularly quoted by major international newspapers, and its work has generated strong criticism and praise. Critics have accused MEMRI of producing inaccurate, unreliable translations with undue emphasis and selectivity in translating and disseminating the most extreme views from Arabic and Persian media, which portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, while ignoring moderate views that are often found in the same media outlets. Other critics charge that while MEMRI does sometimes translate pro-US or pro-democracy voices in the regional media, it systematically leaves out intelligent criticism of Western-style democracy, US and Israeli policy and secularism.[4][30][31][32]

 

MEMRI's work has been attacked on three grounds: that their work is biased; that they choose articles to translate selectively so as to give an unrepresentative view of the media they are reporting on; and that some of their translations are inaccurate.[6] MEMRI has responded to the attacks of critics, stating that their work is not biased; that they in fact choose representative articles from the Arab media that accurately reflect the opinions expressed, and that their translations are highly accurate.[6]

 

:cisfor:

 

edit: what i'm trying to say is, looks like MEMRI might have a bit of an agenda, so good catch, adjective.

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syd syside Grand Master

syd syside

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Arabic's quite close to Hebrew, what is being said is fairly consistent and calling for the death of Jews cannot really be taken out of context.

 

Also from wiki (lol):

 

The accuracy of MEMRI's translations are considered "usually accurate" though occasionally disputed and highly selective in what it chooses to translate and in which context it puts things

 

I don't know why people defend Hamas as if they aren't considered internationally as a terrorist organization.

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awepittance Grand Master

awepittance

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I think it ought to be recognized that the Western media has done an excellent job of ignoring the widely denounced international law violations that Israel regularly commits in the same way the western media ignores US law breaking. If any other country in the world did what Israel was doing, they didn't have a nuclear arsenal or were allies with the United States the media would be extremely harsh on them. Special treatment has been given as long as I've been paying attention and it's not going to change any time soon. This wasn't in direct response to Compson, but i just thought that this needs to be acknowledged, that Israel has gotten a free pass by the western mainstream media establishment as a whole with a few exceptions

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Guest Adjective

Guest Adjective

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Arabic's quite close to Hebrew, what is being said is fairly consistent and calling for the death of Jews cannot really be taken out of context.

i think memri is just making stuff up, not quoting out of context.

 

wikipedia

"In 2007, CNN correspondent Atika Shubert and Arabic translators accused MEMRI of mistranslating portions of a Palestinian children's television programme.

 

"Media watchdog MEMRI translates one caller as saying - quote - 'We will annihilate the Jews,"' said Shubert. "But, according to several Arabic speakers used by CNN, the caller actually says 'The Jews are killing us."'

"

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awepittance Grand Master

awepittance

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Explain this then Awe: http://www.imemc.org/article/63513

 

 

Israel has gotten a free pass by the western mainstream media establishment as a whole with a few exceptions

 

it's the exception not the rule. Do you watch much TV news Compson? NExt time you get a chance watch a Fox News, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC or CNN story on the current conflict and tell me that they don't give ISrael special treatment. the BBC is better than all of those, but again it's the exception.

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