The Rules: Official Discussion & Debate

[Guest Mirezzi]

I definitely never thought WATMM would be moderated with such a heavy hand.

 

Fred's (more or less) Jungian observation resonates with me. Some of my favorite posts/discussions/images from this forum have been explicitly "Shadow" material. I also agree with the observation that Joyrex has never been all that interested in consensus. He's a pretty unilateral operator. "My Wishes for My Forum" leaves little room for analysis or second-guessing. He's a Texan, through and through. I don't know how people manage to get banned though. I'm a complete fucking asshole and I've only ever been warned for inadvertently posting a NSFW image. Some of you just get a bit too bored. In turn, Joyrex gets bored and whips out the Mod Dong and slaps you all with it.

 

In summary, however, just as it might have been somewhat ridiculous to delete a thread about common fetishes, it's just as ridiculous to say that WATMM has been totally sanitized. This form of www discourse has changed since the era of trolls and flame-baiters hiding behind anonymous avatars. On top of that, most the community that talks about the Golden Age are in their mid 30's now.

[goDel]

 

Well, as you can see, this is pinned, and "official", so see this as my olive branch towards the community to allow an open discussion about all this - I really do listen to everyone, but that doesn't always mean I'll act accordingly.

 

And, for the record: All the things you mentioned are in themselves not bad, but unfortunately there's no controls in place to ensure somebody doesn't go overboard with it (which in itself can lead to epic LOLs; trust me, I've been in tears of laughter while having to remove some things), and the marginalization of "the standard" starts to erode and before you know it, we're back to clearly NSFW and then what was the point to begin with?

 

While I prefer people come to me directly with PMs about banned members (frankly, I see it as nobody's business but mine and the banned member), perhaps this thread can serve that purpose if it's something that affects the community (like Fred's banning) versus some asshat that had it coming and nobody's sorry to see them go.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Although I simply disagree with the "there's no controls in place" statement. We have mods, right? We can report posts, right? There's a lot more self-cleansingness (is that a word!?) in place, than you make it appear to be. And the notion that "controls" (in whatever form) would be able to stop extremes from taking place, is simply a fairytale. We're people. Sometimes a discussion can explode into some flamebate orgy. That's part of the territory. And I'm sure we're responsible enough to deal with that appropriately ourselves. No biggie. Shit happens. And if you can't take the heat, than ...kitchen etc

[Joyrex]

 

 

Well, as you can see, this is pinned, and "official", so see this as my olive branch towards the community to allow an open discussion about all this - I really do listen to everyone, but that doesn't always mean I'll act accordingly.

 

And, for the record: All the things you mentioned are in themselves not bad, but unfortunately there's no controls in place to ensure somebody doesn't go overboard with it (which in itself can lead to epic LOLs; trust me, I've been in tears of laughter while having to remove some things), and the marginalization of "the standard" starts to erode and before you know it, we're back to clearly NSFW and then what was the point to begin with?

 

While I prefer people come to me directly with PMs about banned members (frankly, I see it as nobody's business but mine and the banned member), perhaps this thread can serve that purpose if it's something that affects the community (like Fred's banning) versus some asshat that had it coming and nobody's sorry to see them go.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Although I simply disagree with the "there's no controls in place" statement. We have mods, right? We can report posts, right? There's a lot more self-cleansingness (is that a word!?) in place, than you make it appear to be. And the notion that "controls" (in whatever form) would be able to stop extremes from taking place, is simply a fairytale. We're people. Sometimes a discussion can explode into some flamebate orgy. That's part of the territory. And I'm sure we're responsible enough to deal with that appropriately ourselves. No biggie. Shit happens. And if you can't take the heat, than ...kitchen etc

 

Yeah, but saying it's "part of the territory" is a cop-out - I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to behave themselves and abide by the forum rules, and what you may find acceptable may be very unacceptable to others - there has to be a baseline standard by which to go by, and the closer we can stick to that standard, the better overall things will be for both the moderators who have to keep an eye out for things, and people with varying opinions on what's acceptable here.

[goDel]

I think it's a question about when these controls need to be in place. Prospective, following some rules, before anyone is actually offended in any way? Or after? I understand a pro-active pruning of extremes. (Which tend to be obvious, btw and don't need much explanation or even explicit forum rules, imo). But pro-actively deleting stuff when people haven't even complained can go too far. It potentially kills conversations and the general watmm vibe. Sometimes shit should be able to happen out in the open. That's healthy. Let it smell for a bit, I'd say. Makes your life possibly more easy as well. We'd appreciate it more when obvious shit is taken care off appropriately.

[Guest Mirezzi]

So then, what do I do? I can't (and the mods can't) patrol every thread making sure nobody gets out of line - and "just text" easily leads to being more than just text, etc. - you go back down that road again and again.

 

I respect this point as it speaks to the whole "unpaid" volunteers aspect of keeping things moving along.

 

Maybe the guidelines for what is and isn't acceptable discussion here needs to be made more clear. I would much rather read WATMMers discussing strange fetishes than a school shooting or terrorist attack, but that's probably just me.

[Joyrex]

I think it's a question about when these controls need to be in place. Prospective, following some rules, before anyone is actually offended in any way? Or after? I understand a pro-active pruning of extremes. (Which tend to be obvious, btw and don't need much explanation or even explicit forum rules, imo). But pro-actively deleting stuff when people haven't even complained can go too far. It potentially kills conversations and the general watmm vibe. Sometimes shit should be able to happen out in the open. That's healthy. Let it smell for a bit, I'd say. Makes your life possibly more easy as well. We'd appreciate it more when obvious shit is taken care off appropriately.

You may not believe this, but that is exactly what I do in 99% of the cases - it seems only the 1% I act, let's say "impulsively" is when people act like this:

[awepittance]

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

completely 100% agree. I never understood this rush to 'nsfw' things in general across the whole internet. If you're using the internet at work for entertainment, aren't you always running the risk of landing on some unsavory content? I've always seen it as a risk you choose to take.

I'm personally really disappointed by how many forums or areas of the net (not just this one) cater to assholes browsing the web while at work. Seriously it's beyond stupid. This is not an indictment of the Joyrex method, it's a critique of this idea of catering to people who choose to browse the internet for non work related reasons with the potential of a co-worker or boss looking over their shoulder. It just seems so fucking backwards to me.

 

[goDel]

Well, take the watmm memes thread and the deleted discussion about Fred's B7, for instance. Was there a shit storm taking place? I can't remember. Would things get out of hand if those posts weren't deleted? Don't think so, personally. Could be me though. But the pro-active "pm me if you want to discuss this, but don't start another thread" is essentially what I see as killing a conversation we should be able to have (and are having). It was killed out of some expectations things would go out of hand, even though nothing really happened in the first place. Too soon, imo. Kill a conversation AFTER it has gotten out of hand, not before. In this instance you expectations were out of line, imo.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of times you think you should have done something, but you don't. But that doesn't automatically grant you some magic rights that whenever you do take action, it's automatically a good call. This is not some general judgement. But in this example, things could have gone differently. Although I must say I'm happy this discussion is taking place anyways.

 

Kudos for that.

[Guest zaphod]

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

completely 100% agree. I never understood this rush to 'nsfw' things in general across the whole internet. If you're using the internet at work for entertainment, aren't you always running the risk of landing on some unsavory content? I've always seen it as a risk you choose to take.

I'm personally really disappointed by how many forums or areas of the net (not just this one) cater to assholes browsing the web while at work. Seriously it's beyond stupid. This is not an indictment of the Joyrex method, it's a critique of this idea of catering to people who choose to browse the internet for non work related reasons with the potential of a co-worker or boss looking over their shoulder. It just seems so fucking backwards to me.

 

 

 

completely agree.

[OneToThirtySix]

 

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

This. Watmm is NSFW even in it's cleanest form, imo.

Again, I'm not out to make WATMM "squeaky clean" or something you'd read in your local church or synagogue or mosque after services, but people shouldn't have the fear of browsing here and be confronted with a crudely drawn penis strapped to a garbage bin repeatedly ramming an ATM machine.

So now you've expressed disapproval of Autechre's recording methods...smh.

 

 

 

You mentioned public discussion on graphic topics, but membership here is more exclusive than that. I can understand the desire to avoid the "Lord of the Flies" ambiance of the past in order to present a respectable forum for guests, but I haven't heard you present your position like this since "The Great Cleaning" (maybe I missed it on hiatus, but I had no reference to why graphic content was restricted). And footlicking without pictures seems kind of tame compared to "nice tits", "nice dicks", and "mother gives toddler a blowjob". If you are restricting content, those restrictions should be clear from the get-go in order to avoid looking like you are hand-picking which topics are acceptable "at the moment".

Yes, It's your forum, yes, you get to make the final call, but protest will be inevitable unless your perspective is made simple and clear.

[Guest Mirezzi]

 

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

completely 100% agree. I never understood this rush to 'nsfw' things in general across the whole internet. If you're using the internet at work for entertainment, aren't you always running the risk of landing on some unsavory content? I've always seen it as a risk you choose to take.

I'm personally really disappointed by how many forums or areas of the net (not just this one) cater to assholes browsing the web while at work. Seriously it's beyond stupid. This is not an indictment of the Joyrex method, it's a critique of this idea of catering to people who choose to browse the internet for non work related reasons with the potential of a co-worker or boss looking over their shoulder. It just seems so fucking backwards to me.

 

 

 

completely agree.

 

 

 

I do, too. If your employers don't want you surfing totally irrelevant content while at work, they're sure as fuck not going to like finding WATMM in their logs - with or without images of batcocks, shemales, toesucking, etc.

 

However, that's not really why Joyrex has removed that sorta shit, is it? I thought he had taken the (arguably puritanical) view that there are plenty of other places on the internet to have such discussions and he didn't and doesn't think WATMM is one of them.

[Joyrex]

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

completely 100% agree. I never understood this rush to 'nsfw' things in general across the whole internet. If you're using the internet at work for entertainment, aren't you always running the risk of landing on some unsavory content? I've always seen it as a risk you choose to take.

I'm personally really disappointed by how many forums or areas of the net (not just this one) cater to assholes browsing the web while at work. Seriously it's beyond stupid. This is not an indictment of the Joyrex method, it's a critique of this idea of catering to people who choose to browse the internet for non work related reasons with the potential of a co-worker or boss looking over their shoulder. It just seems so fucking backwards to me.

 

 

It may seem backwards, but that's not the reality, and whether you like it or not, reality is what has to be dealt with. What about on your lunch though - should people never check Facebook, Google News, etc. for fear of coming across something unsavoury? That's not a realistic expectation these days, where the internet (for better or worse) is becoming more and more a part of our daily lives. People shouldn't have to live in fear (beyond using common sense) just because some asshole wants to have his porn easily accessible.

 

Well, take the watmm memes thread and the deleted discussion about Fred's B7, for instance. Was there a shit storm taking place? I can't remember. Would things get out of hand if those posts weren't deleted? Don't think so, personally. Could be me though. But the pro-active "pm me if you want to discuss this, but don't start another thread" is essentially what I see as killing a conversation we should be able to have (and are having). It was killed out of some expectations things would go out of hand, even though nothing really happened in the first place. Too soon, imo. Kill a conversation AFTER it has gotten out of hand, not before. In this instance you expectations were out of line, imo.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of times you think you should have done something, but you don't. But that doesn't automatically grant you some magic rights that whenever you do take action, it's automatically a good call. This is not some general judgement. But in this example, things could have gone differently. Although I must say I'm happy this discussion is taking place anyways.

 

Kudos for that.

Hard to say if things would have "gotten out of hand", but as you can see, it seems to have worked out fairly well - we're discussing it as you and others wanted, and the meme thread can continue as it was (which was pretty funny I must say). Letting things get out of hand and THEN do something can be problematic - Pandora's box, etc. Again, it's a difficult balancing act.

[delet...]

i used to partake in these debates -sie-

[Joyrex]

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

This. Watmm is NSFW even in it's cleanest form, imo.

Again, I'm not out to make WATMM "squeaky clean" or something you'd read in your local church or synagogue or mosque after services, but people shouldn't have the fear of browsing here and be confronted with a crudely drawn penis strapped to a garbage bin repeatedly ramming an ATM machine.

So now you've expressed disapproval of Autechre's recording methods...smh.

 

 

 

You mentioned public discussion on graphic topics, but membership here is more exclusive than that. I can understand the desire to avoid the "Lord of the Flies" ambiance of the past in order to present a respectable forum for guests, but I haven't heard you present your position like this since "The Great Cleaning" (maybe I missed it on hiatus, but I had no reference to why graphic content was restricted). And footlicking without pictures seems kind of tame compared to "nice tits", "nice dicks", and "mother gives toddler a blowjob". If you are restricting content, those restrictions should be clear from the get-go in order to avoid looking like you are hand-picking which topics are acceptable "at the moment".

Yes, It's your forum, yes, you get to make the final call, but protest will be inevitable unless your perspective is made simple and clear.

 

Agreed - hence this thread. Again, I never thought I'd have to make a call on a foot-licking thread... but there you go.

[OneToThirtySix]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure that many employers don't approve of their employees surfing the internet for fun and reading forums etc. anyways. If you do decide to partake in that activity at the workplace you just have to use your own discretion in knowing that you may come across nsfw pictures accidentally. A good example I have is craigslist, where occasionally you might find yourself opening an extremely nsfw picture if you are just looking around maybe at the personals for a laugh (I sometimes do this).

This. Watmm is NSFW even in it's cleanest form, imo.

Again, I'm not out to make WATMM "squeaky clean" or something you'd read in your local church or synagogue or mosque after services, but people shouldn't have the fear of browsing here and be confronted with a crudely drawn penis strapped to a garbage bin repeatedly ramming an ATM machine.

So now you've expressed disapproval of Autechre's recording methods...smh.

 

 

 

You mentioned public discussion on graphic topics, but membership here is more exclusive than that. I can understand the desire to avoid the "Lord of the Flies" ambiance of the past in order to present a respectable forum for guests, but I haven't heard you present your position like this since "The Great Cleaning" (maybe I missed it on hiatus, but I had no reference to why graphic content was restricted). And footlicking without pictures seems kind of tame compared to "nice tits", "nice dicks", and "mother gives toddler a blowjob". If you are restricting content, those restrictions should be clear from the get-go in order to avoid looking like you are hand-picking which topics are acceptable "at the moment".

Yes, It's your forum, yes, you get to make the final call, but protest will be inevitable unless your perspective is made simple and clear.

Agreed - hence this thread. Again, I never thought I'd have to make a call on a foot-licking thread... but there you go.

You have this thread as a discussion, as opposed to announcing the content limits and reasons for those limitations and incorporating the restrictions into the forum rules.

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about "the good old days", but not much discussion about where the board is headed, BTW, which makes me curious: what is it you wanted out of creating WATMM? Is it different from where you want it to go?

[ambermonk]

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

Same goes with life in general, really.

[OneToThirtySix]

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

 

Same goes with life in general, really.

You would recommend someone post a risque thread every day to find out where the line is?

[ambermonk]

 

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

 

Same goes with life in general, really.

You would recommend someone post a risque thread every day to find out where the line is?

 

Nope, not recommending anything of the sort. No one can control what anyone else does, but what's already been done can be edited or rearranged. It's not like the concept of "pre-crimes" in Minority Report.

 

Sorry if I'm getting all existential.

[granty]

I think there's two forces at work: what Joyrex wants this forum to be; and what the member contributions make it to be. Trying to control it seems a bit like the war on drugs, a lot of effort and a bit futile. If you want a high brow forum Joyrex maybe its worth considering making a new one? You'd have to vet the members though, and do away with subforums such as 'general banter'.

[hello spiral]

Just to play devil's advocate with the whole "joyrex is a puritan" thing.

 

In Autechre Exai T-Shirts thread:

 

Joyrex

I Reveal My True Self

• 
• Site Administrator
• 
• 13073 posts
• 1068 topics
• Joined 03-June 99

• Gender:Male
• Location:Does it matter?
• Country:United States
• PSN:Joyrex

Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

Alcofribas, on 28 Apr 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

bc you want to have people be like "that's a neat shirt. what's awtescher?" and then you mumble "god mom, you're such a stupid bitch" and quietly masterbate in the guest bathroom. that's why.

 

THAT should be on a shirt!

I'm selling off some of my collection - take a look

• Quote

[OneToThirtySix]

 

 

 

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

 

Same goes with life in general, really.

You would recommend someone post a risque thread every day to find out where the line is?

Nope, not recommending anything of the sort. No one can control what anyone else does, but what's already been done can be edited or rearranged. It's not like the concept of "pre-crimes" in Minority Report.

 

Sorry if I'm getting all existential.

Whatever. I'm not talking about where the forum ends up, I'm asking Joyrex to provide an idea of what he wants out of this forum so the guidelines are clear. He's mentioned how this board is viewed by professionals, but I doubt he wants this place to turn into the kind of forum where GenBan gets relabeled "Food, Arts & Crafts, and Modesty".

[keltoi]

the removal of so called 'off topic' posts in the BoC threads was a perfect example of heavy handed moderation... people were voicing their excitement not going off-topic. removing exuberance and enthusiasm from a music enthusiasts forum doesn't make sense to me and leaves only factual input, and "there are plenty of other places on the net for that kind of thing" like wikipedia. anyway as refreshing as this discussion is, it's futile. joyrex's ball, his rules... play or don't.

[Joyrex]

the removal of so called 'off topic' posts in the BoC threads was a perfect example of heavy handed moderation... people were voicing their excitement not going off-topic. removing exuberance and enthusiasm from a music enthusiasts forum doesn't make sense to me and leaves only factual input, and "there are plenty of other places on the net for that kind of thing" like wikipedia. anyway as refreshing as this discussion is, it's futile. joyrex's ball, his rules... play or don't.

Well, when you read a page or two of nonsense when there is the more exciting aspect of you know, actually discussing the impending reveal of a new Boards album after 9 fucking years... you can see how I'd want to tidy up a bit so others don't have to trawl through such nonsense, right?

 

The whole point of making this into it's own pinned "Official" thread was to open up the lines of discussion, and hopefully, come to some understanding about the rules, my intentions, etc. - you'd prefer if I just went back to doing things without any (apparent) rhyme or reason? I don't want to, nor do I think others do here.

[Joyrex]

 

 

 

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

 

Same goes with life in general, really.

You would recommend someone post a risque thread every day to find out where the line is?

Nope, not recommending anything of the sort. No one can control what anyone else does, but what's already been done can be edited or rearranged. It's not like the concept of "pre-crimes" in Minority Report.

 

Sorry if I'm getting all existential.

Whatever. I'm not talking about where the forum ends up, I'm asking Joyrex to provide an idea of what he wants out of this forum so the guidelines are clear. He's mentioned how this board is viewed by professionals, but I doubt he wants this place to turn into the kind of forum where GenBan gets relabeled "Food, Arts & Crafts, and Modesty".

 

Here's what I (ideally) want out of this forum (and site):

• Everyone have a good time coming here, and contribute meaningfully.
• Have WATMM be THE electronic music resource online - get back to my nerdy, obsessive collecting of Featured Artists minutiae and have it as a resource for fans to utilize, in the best format and presentation possible, with user contributions and involvement.
• Have the major artists and labels look to WATMM as a way to interface with their fans, and as a conduit for them to promote their works.
• Create an environment and inspire budding artists interested in electronic music to share their works, contribute to others, collaborate, and make connections to further their own goals and careers.
• In addition to all the above, have a community and culture unlike any other online, where we all share a laugh, talk about the issues of the day, and share non-music interests and insights with one another, all while (hopefully) respecting one another, and knowing when to agree to disagree. (OK, getting deep in here...)

In the process of accomplishing the above (or attempting to as best we can), create an environment and community we are proud of, and not one we'd cringe to be associated with, or act in such a way we'd be ashamed to discuss with others openly.

 

Now I know realistically some of those are a bit idealistic, but I truly feel they are somewhat attainable - and don't require any lowering of personal standards just to "fit in" with the crowd or garner attention through one's behaviour.

 

I think there's two forces at work: what Joyrex wants this forum to be; and what the member contributions make it to be. Trying to control it seems a bit like the war on drugs, a lot of effort and a bit futile. If you want a high brow forum Joyrex maybe its worth considering making a new one? You'd have to vet the members though, and do away with subforums such as 'general banter'.

I don't think I have to "vet" anybody - I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to behave themselves within the context of the rules, and use their best judgement when things might not be so clear as to whether or not something's appropriate.

[autopilot]

 

Have the major artists and labels look to WATMM as a way to interface with their fans, and as a conduit for them to promote their works.

 

Is that in case of some hypothetical future in which Facebook, Twitter, & Resident Advisor cease to exist?

 

 

Everyone have a good time coming here, and contribute meaningfully.

 

How do you define "everyone"? Everyone that registered after 2010? Because I'm pretty sure you've alienated everyone else.

 

 

Have WATMM be THE electronic music resource online - get back to my nerdy, obsessive collecting of Featured Artists minutiae and have it as a resource for fans to utilize, in the best format and presentation possible, with user contributions and involvement.

 

If that's what you want then you should make it a blog, not a messageboard. The kind of hijinx that made this place fun were very messageboard-centric community antics. Messageboards are for posting profane, humorous things, and for neckbeards to make wall of text posts about how various pieces of art don't live up to their expectations.

 

 

I am simply tired of this forum being looked at by professionals and others as some cesspool where the greasy little IDM prepubescent nerds hang out and share their immature fantasies and giggle at poop jokes.

 

The fanboy featured-artist minutae obsession & dicksucking probably does way more to turn off professionals to this site than a thread containing boobs. Liking boobs is universal, while multi-page threads about blank black boxes on discography webpages & idol worship of musicians who haven't produced anything meaningful for over a decade makes the place reek of asberger's.