That Wikileaks video

[chenGOD]

Wow. Just fucked.

EZkerraldean - no way. They have plenty of time to think about the situation, soldiers get training in identifying weapons, and firing on people assisting wounded is against the Geneva Convention.

 

As for questions about whether or not the US military is going to be exploring more tech oriented "solutions". Well they're already flying predator drones from Las Vegas.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/09/hunting-the-taliban-in-las-vegas/5116/

[awepittance]

no i'm certainly not a fan of the "war"/whatever, innit. what the video shows is undeniably pretty dodgy but shit like that would still happen even if it was a truly just operation, i thought that would be obvious. dodgy shit might happen but it's not like shameless civilian massacres are deliberately perpetrated daily by allied forces in iraq, is it?

 

what is your definition of deliberate? an American soldier knowingly shooting in cold blood an unarmed person?

 

the problem with this logic is that American soldiers think any arab person wearing civilian clothes is the enemy in tense situations, they are so blind sighted that they literally do not even factor in 'hmm maybe this could be an innocent person' into the decision of firing upon them. this video clearly illustrates the chain of command instructions to rush into a situation where you fire upon people when you are not likely in any danger yourself

 

i mean anything is up for interpretation, there are plenty of opinions to go around. Remember Abu Garib? A Great deal of people wrote those off as 'fraternity pranks'

when that American soldier threw the live puppy dog off the cliff, the conservative's brains couldn't even process it. Michelle Malkin went on a massive internet campaign to expose the video as a 'fake' and the dog as a 'stuffed toy' , when the soldier was actually punished by his superiors years later for killing the dog Malkin and the conservatives were totally silent. Cognitive dissonance is a beautiful thing

[Guest ezkerraldean]

are you satisfied with the actions the military took in the video then? + do you support the Iraq war?

well obviously not, in both cases

 

 

EZkerraldean - no way. They have plenty of time to think about the situation,

i really don't think we can comment on that, i doubt any of us here have done any front-line shit.

[kaen]

i dont see how those guys with camera's and a tripod could be mistaken for armed insurgents

 

what a mess

[awepittance]

the video ends with an almost too fitting quote

 

"well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle"

 

"that's right"

[Guest beatfanatic]

i dont see how those guys with camera's and a tripod could be mistaken for armed insurgents

 

what a mess

 

I am in no ways defending the actions of the American soldiers but apparently the people surrounding those two journalists (holding cameras and tripods) were carrying AK47s, so I doubt they even bothered to check what those two journalists were carrying and just opened fired.

 

This video makes me angry but I cant help but think that majority of the people are kinda apathetic to this sort of behavior. I mean if you watch the news everyday, you always hear about people dying somewhere in the middle-east due to suicide bombs etc etc.

 

Its sad but true.

[manmower]

I really only see one person holding something which could be a weapon, but could just as well have been a tripod, at least in the shots we're shown. Definitely not 5 or 6 people with AKs and RPGs, what the fuck.

 

i dont see how those guys with camera's and a tripod could be mistaken for armed insurgents

 

what a mess

 

I am in no ways defending the actions of the American soldiers but apparently the people surrounding those two journalists (holding cameras and tripods) were carrying AK47s, so I doubt they even bothered to check what those two journalists were carrying and just opened fired.

 

This video makes me angry but I cant help but think that majority of the people are kinda apathetic to this sort of behavior. I mean if you watch the news everyday, you always hear about people dying somewhere in the middle-east due to suicide bombs etc etc.

 

Its sad but true.

[awepittance]

i mean in the first place you really have to question one's abilities to even recognize weapons over dithered grainy black and white video

[sneaksta303]

Looking back on my Army days, I could see about 30-40% of the people I served with being capable of being excited by that sort of behavior.

 

Also, if any of our troops were to say "no, i can't shoot them, they're obviously civilians", they would be court marshalled and imprisoned. I reckon if I was put in that situation I'd just miss on purpose lol... I had a good friend who was a tactical urban sniper... fuck, that would mess with my mind SOOOOO bad. Shit, just BEING in the military messed with my mind. I left there as a fuckin opiate slave fer a bit.

[awepittance]

the part where the solier begs the wounded crawling guy to pick up the gun, Bill hicks anyone?

[Boxing Day]

anyone seen that movie , Jarhead ?? , well this situation reminds me of that movie. - Young soldiers that joined the military just to kill people.

[sneaksta303]

Well yeah those are Marines. It's a given if you join the Marines at this point that you WILL see action.

 

anyone seen that movie , Jarhead ?? , well this situation reminds me of that movie. - Young soldiers that joined the military just to kill people.

[chenGOD]

 

 

 

EZkerraldean - no way. They have plenty of time to think about the situation,

i really don't think we can comment on that, i doubt any of us here have done any front-line shit.

They're circling in an Apache strike copter that is outside the range of any soviet made RPG. Safe to say thety had time to think about the situation.

 

 

i dont see how those guys with camera's and a tripod could be mistaken for armed insurgents

 

what a mess

 

I am in no ways defending the actions of the American soldiers but apparently the people surrounding those two journalists (holding cameras and tripods) were carrying AK47s, so I doubt they even bothered to check what those two journalists were carrying and just opened fired.

 

This video makes me angry but I cant help but think that majority of the people are kinda apathetic to this sort of behavior. I mean if you watch the news everyday, you always hear about people dying somewhere in the middle-east due to suicide bombs etc etc.

 

Its sad but true.

 

if you look at the video, you can pretty clearly see that there is one guy holding something that might resemble a rifle. Nobody else is holding anything that could be mistaken for a weapon.

 

As for the second part of your post, I almost have to agree. Unfortunately the western world has become inured to these kinds of images or reports since Vietnam. Still though, it's no reason to stop trying to use the media to try and encourage more responsibility in the military's actions (I am not justifying the war, the soldiers are there and that's the reality of the situation, so while they are there (and the faster they get pulled out the better) pressure on them to carry themselves with more discipline is always good).

[awepittance]

it can be argued that the reason partially that we are so desensitized to american warefare is that we rarely are ever exposed to videos like this. chicken or egg time

 

i also disagree that people are apathetic to this type of behavior after actually SEEING it, maybe just hearing about it sure no one gives a shit. I think even republicans who watch this wouldn't be apathetic they would find some way to rationalize it as 'gettin revenge on al queda'

[chenGOD]

I don't think so Robbie. Desensitized because of overexposure to graphic violence in the news and entertainment media.

Apathetic to the situation because "it's happening over there to brown people."

[awepittance]

i think that's perhaps too cynical, and i am one cynical m-effer.

[chaosmachine]

[youtubehd]OUiKQyqH9-U[/youtubehd]

 

Imagine the view

From a helicopter gunship

A man comes into view

And you hit that switch

And you cut that man in two

 

Imagine the view

When they bounce that shit off of satellites

And they hit that switch and when they hit that switch

All of heaven shits on you

 

Imagine the view

[Boxing Day]

I don't think so Robbie. Desensitized because of overexposure to graphic violence in the news and entertainment media.

Apathetic to the situation because "it's happening over there to brown people."

 

 

Yep , the "Middle and Upper class" doesn't give a shit about anybody but their little suburban robot communities.

 

As long as their "Paradise" is safe , they are okay.

The media is telling them that "our brave soldiers" are protecting them from the bogeyman , and in their "sheep"-mentality , everything the US army does is for the greater good (Meaning their protection).

 

Hell , "lower classes" are shooting each other right in their neighbor towns and they don't give a shit.

 

The "Bubble-boy" mentality of the "upper and middle classes" is sickening.

[chenGOD]

i think that's perhaps too cynical, and i am one cynical m-effer.

 

Well i sincerely hope I'm wrong, and that this (plus another supposed upcoming leak) can be part of a turning of the tide to get the majority of Americans behind the idea of troop withdrawal (as well as corporate withdrawal....).

[Guest ezkerraldean]

Well i sincerely hope I'm wrong, and that this (plus another supposed upcoming leak) can be part of a turning of the tide to get the majority of Americans behind the idea of troop withdrawal (as well as corporate withdrawal....).

i don't get why people scream so mindlessly about "supporting the troops" - even here in canada which suprises me (although that's afghanistan which i guess is slightly different to iraq but meh). as if all/any criticism of the iraq mission is inherently unamerican and an insult to the people serving there (which it isn't in any way). i guess it's just another facet of american republican ultranationalism so i'll never have a hope in hell of understanding it

[Guest ezkerraldean]

Well i sincerely hope I'm wrong, and that this (plus another supposed upcoming leak) can be part of a turning of the tide to get the majority of Americans behind the idea of troop withdrawal (as well as corporate withdrawal....).

my point earlier was that the body of allied troops as a whole shouldn't be tarnished with this same brush, since the people who do that shit are hardly a majority, and countless despicable events like that shown in the video were probably commited by the "goodies" in far more "just" wars than the iraq invasion - that's war, chaps. but spreading stuff like this might actually be a good idea if it means more people begin to support withdrawal

[Guest Blanket Fort Collapse]

the trigger happy careless arrogance (whilst in no danger) they went about this in is NOT just an acceptable part of "war"

[SR4]

i think sneaksta said it best though....i knew two people in teh service, one in iraqi theater and one in the afghani theater. Both said they did horrible things on this level that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

 

But you have to understand the situation, you are in the middle of the desert on some recon mission and your immediate officer in charge orders you to unload on a civilian....if you think about the implications of the situation you wouldn't have made it to the theater in the first place...your job as a soldier is to be told what to do and then do it. period. what happens if you refuse? court martial, hauled off to god knows what military prison, maybe even shot on orders by the same lunatic.

 

im not excusing these actions, but its important to keep this in mind that with every trigger happy redneck racist soldier, you also have intense mental conditioning used on 18 year old kids to kill without thought.

 

nonethelss, these videos are beyond disgusting and i am sending it to all of my pro-war relatives so they can come face to face with reality.

[chenGOD]

Well i sincerely hope I'm wrong, and that this (plus another supposed upcoming leak) can be part of a turning of the tide to get the majority of Americans behind the idea of troop withdrawal (as well as corporate withdrawal....).

my point earlier was that the body of allied troops as a whole shouldn't be tarnished with this same brush, since the people who do that shit are hardly a majority, and countless despicable events like that shown in the video were probably commited by the "goodies" in far more "just" wars than the iraq invasion - that's war, chaps. but spreading stuff like this might actually be a good idea if it means more people begin to support withdrawal

 

Unfortunately, Abu Gharib and other events have shown that these are not isolated incidents. Not to get totally off-track, but before anybody points to Milgram's experiments about ceding responsibility in the face of authority, there was no authority there. The guards were operating within certain parameters sure, but they had pretty much free run of the facility when the events took place. The chain of people who knew about Abu Gharib and did nothing goes all the way up to Rumsfeld (who basically ordered the information be gotten any way possible), so it's fairly safe to say that it's not just a few bad apples.

 

XXX- really? positivism? Would have pictured you for a Falsification kind of guy...

[Guest Gary C]

I think I've stayed out of this thread long enough to avoid the inevitable arguments as to who is to blame. I don't want to get into that shit. Chicken. Egg.

 

I've known a handful of people in my life who have joined the services.

 

One was a bully at school; and it was patently obvious that he held a deep anger because his father had left when he was young. When I heard he had signed up I wasn't surprised.

Seeing him recently he's bulked up, and hasn't developed anymore intellectually, but he does seem a more earnest person because of the experience.

 

Another person is a reknowned fuck-head, also lives with intense anger, and was a dangerously violent person before he signed up. Upon one of his returns I saw him again, still just as dangerous. A real lit torch. He was coming onto women in clubs, with their boyfriends right next to them. When he inevitably got rejected he would scream at the women to slap him. And when they did, mainly through fear, he would then lay into the boyfriend.

An absolute nightmare of a person. I stated that night that joining the army is the best thing for him because hopefully he'll be killed out there.

A few brief seconds with him alone, after having punched him in the chest because he demanded me to, he told me that he knew he was a fuck-up before, but that going to Iraq, and receiving shrapnel wounds, had fucked him up even more so.

 

I know a fair few more Brits who have joined, and to be honest, the majority of them are meat-heads. Angry looking people. A danger if ever provoked.

 

I know one guy who's training in the Air Force now, and he's not a complete tool. I wouldn't want to spend any length of time with him, but he's fine.

 

And I know a Canadian Medic who had been caught in combat a lot. He's a pretty sound guy actually.

 

So maybe it's just a ground-level troop problem.

 

Sure, the pressure they're under out there is more than I could ever understand. Holding a loaded gun would irk me, being told to shoot people would be too far. But being told that they're going to kill you first if you don't. And that the guys you've spent so much time with over the last 6 months to a year will be killed if you don't kill them. Fuck sake. It's unbelievable.

Some people are suited to the rules and regulations. They need to be commanded.

Some people have personal issues and an anger that they feel they, perhaps wrongly, can expel in battle situations.

Some people sign up because they feel their options are limited in life and they either need the money or have an obligation to their family to fulfill.

 

I personally don't like soldiers. It's a world I will never be a part of, and will never fully understand. But I respect that they put themselves through terrible situations for whichever they choose to believe.

But it's not for me. No soldier out there is doing anything for me. I don't believe in the idea that fighting terrorists out there will prevent them attacking Britain. I actually believe it'll only worsen the problem in another 10 years.