Gaza bound aid flotilla commandeered by Israelis

[eugene]

hmm..i'll try

 

israeli army tries to take over the ship that's about to break its blockade.

expecting peace activists and mild resistance commandos armed with crowd dispersing weapons land on a deck and nearly get killed by a mob with knives and metal rods, that's the stage where they are allowed to use live fire. another group lands and uses live ammo on those attacking the soldiers. 9 deaths, - 100000 pr points for israel. there's no information so far on how those 9 died. the aid that the ship carried is already in gaza and its much less than the average amount that passes to gaza from israel daily. im not 100% sure but the word is that all of the ships which carried aid fro gaza in the past got redirected to the israeli port and the aid was delivered, no casualties

 

you forgot the part where israeli troops comandeer the turkish ship in international waters. justify that then.

they were not commandeering a random turkish ship but a ship that declared that's its about to break the blockade without getting inspected by israel, the reason for the beginning of the raid in intl waters was the night time which was supposed to make things quicker and easier for the commandos, it was the last chance to intercept the ship during darkness before it reached gaza.

 

there's more legal stuff on wiki too

[azatoth]

according to witnesses the soldiers murdered sleeping passengers. and the soldiers were sure to give an extra beating to those with dark skin.

[eugene]

the same soldiers who did 9/11 probably

[azatoth]

fuck it. you have been white knighting every dick move by the israelis on this forum since i can remember, so sorry if i don't take your opinions seriously.

[Guest Drahken]

A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.

 

Even if this was an angry mob wielding metal rods and knives I don't see why this kind of gross use of force was needed. Surely they could have physically prevented the ship from porting in Gaza with their naval assets, or approached the situation more tacitly with non-lethal force. Its not like these were military vessels capable of repelling a naval class interceptor.

[Hoodie]

hmm..i'll try

 

israeli army tries to take over the ship that's about to break its blockade.

expecting peace activists and mild resistance commandos armed with crowd dispersing weapons land on a deck and nearly get killed by a mob with knives and metal rods, that's the stage where they are allowed to use live fire. another group lands and uses live ammo on those attacking the soldiers. 9 deaths, - 100000 pr points for israel. there's no information so far on how those 9 died. the aid that the ship carried is already in gaza and its much less than the average amount that passes to gaza from israel daily. im not 100% sure but the word is that all of the ships which carried aid fro gaza in the past got redirected to the israeli port and the aid was delivered, no casualties

 

you forgot the part where israeli troops comandeer the turkish ship in international waters. justify that then.

 

eugene does have a point here, israel had the legal right to prevent the vessel from breaking the blockade.

 

buuut, there shouldn't be a blockade in the first place, if gaza is supposedly it's own little sovereign territory, which is what israel is insisting it is.

 

also, i highly doubt that more passes from israel to gaza daily. could we get some sources for that, eugene?

 

the biggest problem that i have with all this is the hatred and death. there are so many israelis that think of palestinians as little more than dogs and there are so many palestinians with a hatred for israelis that will not settle until peace has been made and even generations after that. the election of hamas just goes to show how frightened the palestinians are. it's kinda similar to how hitler got to power, the germans were terrified of the rest of europe and let a nationalist take over. the same could be said for netanyahu, i think.

 

also, there's a side that's obviously the stronger one. the palestinians have missiles, oh yes, old shit from soviet russia. israel has one of the world's most advanced militaries. it's not sensible to view the palestinians as a threat to israel, which is the excuse for all the shit the israeli government has done to them.

 

of course, i'd never say this to anyone in person. if you don't support israel, you're a bad person. i love my jewish friends, but most of them are so fanatic about israel that it's... really insane. but, on one hand, i understand how they feel. when kosovo went to the albanians, yeah, i had some weird nationalist feelings bubble up inside of me. but then i used my head, my rationality and said, "it's a piece of land. the religious significance is irrelevant. let them take it."

 

the more i think about it, the more i realize that humans are really fucking stupid in their necessity to divide everyone up into groups.

[joshuatxuk]

I was raised Jewish but Israel has been pissing me off for years. After this incident, I think I'll give up on them for good. People need to remember, however hard it is to believe, that some Israelis disagree with what their government has done and does to this day.

 

Thanks for sharing that. The U.S. media rarely discusses how fed up moderate and left-wing Israelis are with their government.

 

according to witnesses the soldiers murdered sleeping passengers. and the soldiers were sure to give an extra beating to those with dark skin.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

 

I'll just say these passengers weren't sleeping. There is no way commandos would raid 5 boats without major issues then slaughter innocent civillians on the 6th. ^This is why people were seriously hurt and killed. The soldiers were attacked with blunt objects and knives, thrown off board yet ordered to keep raiding the ship. They freaked out and fired back. Overkill? Yes, but they were provoked and NO one will know any clear details any time soon.

 

And let's not act like Israeli's are the only cold-blooded killers who get off without punishment. This fucker was released with 5 others in exchange for the bodies of two Israeli reservests abducted and killed by Hezbollah militants

 

A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.

Even if this was an angry mob wielding metal rods and knives I don't see why this kind of gross use of force was needed. Surely they could have physically prevented the ship from porting in Gaza with their naval assets, or approached the situation more tacitly with non-lethal force. Its not like these were military vessels capable of repelling a naval class interceptor.

 

It was botched operation, watching the video I wonder why they didn't just retreat and wait. It'd be a pity if Israel doesn't investigate this or allow an investigation to take place. It'll be another incident where mistakes aren't addressed. My main issue with Israel and their military operations of the last decade or so is how shortsided and reactionary they are. They went from being an underdog to arguably (playing devil's advocate here) a flat-out bully, at least based on casualties inflicted. If they really held back it'd reveal how hostile Hezbollah and Hamas really are. But that won't happend...the right-wing there and here in the States would consider it "surrendering" because they're just as radical as their Arab enemies.

[Guest Fishtank]

There's been weapons coming through those waters and they asked to board the boat and they ignored the request, that is suspicious behavior.

[Guest hahathhat]

request group 6 access password reindeer flotilla

[Guest analogue wings]

Pretty obvious the boatloads of stick waving radicals were there to stir up shit and maybe martyr themselves on tv (probably weren't thinking of literal martyrdom though)

 

so why was the supposedly civilised and first world Israeli defense force so prepared to give them exatly what they wanted?

 

why not just let them reach the blockade and try to run it? they it's them that're the bad guys.

 

fuck, why not let them reach the blockade, deny them passage, and offer to transport their aid to gaza for them - i.e. call their bluff and pwn them like the boatloads of dumbarse angry students they are?

 

nope. hadta flash the We-Are-Americas-Bitch-Free-Pass-To-Do-Anything card at the world and go kill some dirty muslims.

 

Fuck Israel.

 

After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan banned nuclear weapons and became a staunchly pacifist nation admired by the rest of the first world for their idealistic stance in military matters.

 

After the Holocaust, Israel went around taking peoples sovereignty off them and killing men, women and children based on creed and race.

 

WHO WAS THE BETTER LEARNER, ISRAEL?

[joshuatxuk]

After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan banned nuclear weapons and became a staunchly pacifist nation admired by the rest of the first world for their idealistic stance in military matters.

 

After the Holocaust, Israel went around taking peoples sovereignty off them and killing men, women and children based on creed and race.

 

WHO WAS THE BETTER LEARNER, ISRAEL?

 

...Israel fended off major invasion efforts by Arab States after 1948 before the decades of insurgency in Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza brought them to this point. They were literally underdogs for the first decade or so of their existence. Japan also had the advantage of building itself up economically while peacefully occupied by the U.S. for years.

 

This conflict isn't a "race" issue, there are Israeli Jews darker than Islamic Arabs, and there are other demographics like the Christians and Druze in Lebanon involved. It's about nationalism and religion (or creed as you said), and both sides are being lead and influenced by fanatics.

 

The incident was Israel's fault based on multiple mistakes and bad decisions, most of which you highlighted, but it wasn't a clear-cut massacre. Saying "Fuck Israel" is about as mature as saying "Fuck Iran" or "Fuck N. Korea" or "Fuck America" based solely on their goverment's actions. There isn't a huge majority behind recent military action and the settlements, and hopefully the backlash will finally catch-up after this incident.

[Guest analogue wings]

Last I checked Israel was a democracy, with the power to remove a government whos actions the people disagree with.

 

So....

 

Fuck Israel.

[Guest margaret thatcher]

i always thought that comandeering a foreign ship in international waters was piracy. but i guess i'm wrong.

anyway, reports on radio 4 were saying that the civilians on the ship had nothing more than wooden poles as weapons.

the israeli commmandos had machine guns.

frankly, any justification of the murder of unarmed civilian aid workers by armed troops is unacceptable.

the only country that doesn't wholeheartedly condemn israel's actions is the united states, for obvious reasons.

[awepittance]

 

wow thanks for that picture! i'm going to post that around if you don't mind

[Silent Member]

please do

[azatoth]

can't have an israel topic without a finkelstein ownage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4

[joshuatxuk]

Last I checked Israel was a democracy, with the power to remove a government whos actions the people disagree with.

 

So....

 

Fuck Israel.

 

Well fuck your comparison of postwar Japan and Israel, because it's

[joshuatxuk]

can't have an israel topic without a finkelstein ownage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4

 

Nice. Any use of the Holocaust in this debate on either side is essentially a tailored version of the Hitler argument. That's the reaction it deserves.

[Guest theSun]

pwnd

[awepittance]

so i'm confused why everybody here is just assuming Israel's version of events is true (that they did not shoot until they were physically attacked).

 

It was clear from the moment news of the flotilla attack emerged that Israel was taking extreme steps to suppress all evidence about what happened other than its own official version. They detained the flotilla passengers and barred the media from speaking with them, thus, as The NYT put it, "refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel's version of events." They detained the journalists who were on the ship for days and seized their film, video and cameras. And worst of all, the IDF -- while still refusing to disclose the full, unedited, raw footage of the incident -- quickly released an extremely edited video of their commandos landing on the ship, which failed even to address, let alone refute, the claim of the passengers: that the Israelis were shooting at the ship before the commandos were on board.

 

are those defending israel in this instance removing this fact from the equation?

 

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/04/israel/index.html

[hirokitaan]

Last week I was driving and I listened to an interview on NPR with some woman on/in charge of the flotilla and for some reason she really grated on my nerves. What they were doing seemed obviously wrong and she was like 'I dont care, I dont care, I do what I want' and I jokingly told a passenger in my car that she would be dead in a week.

[joshuatxuk]

so i'm confused why everybody here is just assuming Israel's version of events is true (that they did not shoot until they were physically attacked).

 

It was clear from the moment news of the flotilla attack emerged that Israel was taking extreme steps to suppress all evidence about what happened other than its own official version. They detained the flotilla passengers and barred the media from speaking with them, thus, as The NYT put it, "refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel's version of events." They detained the journalists who were on the ship for days and seized their film, video and cameras. And worst of all, the IDF -- while still refusing to disclose the full, unedited, raw footage of the incident -- quickly released an extremely edited video of their commandos landing on the ship, which failed even to address, let alone refute, the claim of the passengers: that the Israelis were shooting at the ship before the commandos were on board.

 

are those defending israel in this instance removing this fact from the equation?

 

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/04/israel/index.html

 

I'm not at all, but I'm not supporting their actions completely by any means, so I dunno if I'm being addressed here. Israeli government spokesmen are refusing to allow any kind of inquiry and sticking with their limited answers on what actually happend. Activist accounts are extremely varying; there are foresnsic reports that some were clearly shot at close range but I've yet to read about anyone who was hurt or killed from fire before the raid (i.e. from helicopters and Naval boats). Lack of any evidence either way is frustrating, and the IDF seizures of film and cameras is clearly backfiring on them.

[Root5]

I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but if anyone is interested in reading a short and very well written article about why this is Israel's fault, check out this post by M.J.Rosenberg. He's the man.

 

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/02/lying_about_the_gaza_flotilla_attack/

[Guest Conor74]

of course, i'd never say this to anyone in person. if you don't support israel, you're a bad person.

 

Interesting.

 

In Ireland, if you so much as suggest Israel may have a point, hypersensitivity and aggression has served them well in the past particularly in the 6 Day War, you get flak from everyone. The papers, the media, most forums seem to be full of Palestinian sympathisers with very little effort to understand the Israelis. It seems to me that there are hard questions that must be answered though from this particular incident, that surely some figures in the IDF should be hauled up and made to answer questions about whether their response was proportionate. Wouldn't join the hysteria about isolating Israel at all, they are entitled to defend themselves by all possible means when they are surrounded by neighbours that would like to wipe them out, but think they may have to acknowledge that this incident was a bit of a botched operation.

[MAXIMUS MISCHIEF]

its hard to tell who to believe with this. israel is going to say their actions were justified and everyone else is going to say they werent. its basically everyone against them.... and by the looks of the letters found on board the flotilla that is what was planned.