Fuck Brickwall Mastering

[vamos scorcho]

this has been an issue with my production process. the limiter i feel like is important at the end when you want to increase the volume a bit, as long as it's not completely "in your face" that you've done so - that is, you should be able to retain dynamics.

 

when i first started getting deeper into producing i randomly discovered the limiter and realized i could make everything way so i started throwing it on everything and cranking it.

 

it really is tragic because a good amount of music i made is somewhat destroyed by the amateur mastering, and there's no way to go back and fix it as the project files are gone - and it's 100% true that once you do that to an audio file it's difficult/impossible to fix it. interestingly it wasn't until i smoked and heard some of my music that i realized what the limiting was actually doing to it.

 

still, it's a learning process and i probably wouldn't go back and change any of it as even that "amateur/overlimited/shitty sound quality" kind of adds to it in a way.

i should also mention that overlimiting can add to certain pieces, when you're trying to make everything superblended and indistinguishable, it creates a pane of glass between the listener and the music so it's like everything is contained inside of it perfectly. it can add shape.

 

 

to this day i still don't know exactly how to give each track that finishing "sheen" without putting a good amount of limiting on it. everything sounds flat to me without it. ironically, with it it's actually even flatter! i'm probably 50% deafer now than i was a year ago.

[YEK]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

[autopilot]

did you get this Eskmo file directly from his own webstore or from a 3rd party mp3 distributor? Im not a big fan or anything but it would surprise me if he put out a song that had digital clipping in it. Sometimes companies like itunes will fuck up a master wave file

 

I bought the .wav from Bleep, believe it or not.

 

I've never spun this tune live :(

[Guest Babaluma]

to this day i still don't know exactly how to give each track that finishing "sheen" without putting a good amount of limiting on it. everything sounds flat to me without it. ironically, with it it's actually even flatter! i'm probably 50% deafer now than i was a year ago.

 

yeah, that "sheen" really has very little, if anything, to do with the digital limiting. i'd say it was more a result of the quality of the outboard gear (D/A & A/D conversion, compression and EQ) used, and the ears and experience of the person using it.

[Guest fiznuthian]

chimera is 100% right out nobody giving a shit.

i've told people countless times that commercial music,

not necessarily even "mainstream" literally hurts my ears

regardless of the music quality..

 

don't think i've ever met more than a handful of people who didn't give me looks

[Guest hahathhat]

if you master aggressively people will react a certain way. if you don't they will react some other way. really you should just ignore them and do wat sounds rad

 

and if music sux just delete the copy you pirated.

[awepittance]

did you get this Eskmo file directly from his own webstore or from a 3rd party mp3 distributor? Im not a big fan or anything but it would surprise me if he put out a song that had digital clipping in it. Sometimes companies like itunes will fuck up a master wave file

 

I bought the .wav from Bleep, believe it or not.

 

I've never spun this tune live :(

 

just out of curiosity i wonder if the file off the vinyl or cd or whatever the source is clips also

[Zephyr_Nova]

Most of the time this doesn't bother me a hell of a lot except in very extreme cases, but it seems when I'm drunk and hear brickwalled mastering it sounds absolutely ghastly to me. Maybe it's something to do with my brain not being able to separate the sounds out as easily while intoxicated, so it just sounds like a repulsive dense mass of sound? I don't know. It also depends on what system I'm hearing it through. I tend to like really LOUD music through my Sony 700 headphones, but through my studio monitors it sometimes leaves a bit of a garbagey aftertaste. The first time I heard Flying Lotus through my studio monitors it was a major WTF-why-did-he-do-that? experience, but I like how it sounds on my discman.

[Guest Lube Saibot]

to this day i still don't know exactly how to give each track that finishing "sheen" without putting a good amount of limiting on it. everything sounds flat to me without it. ironically, with it it's actually even flatter! i'm probably 50% deafer now than i was a year ago.

 

yeah, that "sheen" really has very little, if anything, to do with the digital limiting. i'd say it was more a result of the quality of the outboard gear (D/A & A/D conversion, compression and EQ) used, and the ears and experience of the person using it.

 

Don't mean to be a dick, as i fully respect your craft and what you do and like how you've introduced yourself here and you're a pretty cool guy you love analogue and doesn't afraid of anything. Additionally, I am/have somewhat invested in analogue myself.

 

But..t.....t........t..........

 

...for the most part, fuck outboard dude. If you're a fetishist, cool, indulge in your toys, just as i have in mine. If it's the centerpiece of your business (as it is in your case, and which I'm afraid will inhibit you in taking my point lightly but alas...), cool, tote it around and stack dat papa. End of the day, it's still "the ears and experience of the person". Case in point, i know plenty of gearheards (among which, a fanatic distressor user and another guy who has EVERYTHING - i exaggerate, but he's literally run out of rack space) who have churned out some of the weakest/thinnest/muddiest/most muffled/most brittle/most overly dynamic (and yes i believe that exits) shit i have had the displeasure to hear. On the flipside, I've had the pleasure to work under/with people who can do wonders with an L2 and common sense, one of which has become the foremost option for bands/groups here locally, still working mainly in the box (he is very dedicated craft-wise, time-wise and gear-wise in the recording process, using shitloads of mics and blending lots of captures and auxes together to get these perfect mixes going, but his mastering is a very simple, yet very effective digital affair).

 

Also, not all music ENTAILS very sophisticated mastering, as you say yourself. I doubt a SPL unit can bring anything out of a hardstyle or dubstep mix or something. Conversely, not a lot of music that's supposedly big $$$ mastered really shows it (most of pop, I'm looking at you). It takes a very, VERY talented+refined year to actually validate the benefit of mastering outboard... when the outboard is not merely a lazy, easy, and instantly satisfying insta-warm-button crutch for bad producers/engineers (here it might seem that I'm making some wild assumptions about you, which I assure I'm not, I haven't heard a single one of your products yet and I reserve judgement). But, rather, when it becomes a creative tool (clark, oizo, jackson, spusher, maybe even merzbow if we go a bit artsy in this train of thought).

 

Otherwise, it's really not worth the effort/expenditure. If you're fully at ear kung fu level, and you do these perfect mixes that you feel could ACTUALLY benefit from some flattering outboard treatment, and you AREN'T clark and wanting to go nuts with it, it's much more reasonable to just pay a guy like Babaluma, or any of his many many many available peers, to run your shit through tape and then a TC Electronic or Thermionic Culture or Distressor or whatever.

 

I realize now this has been a bit of a rant, and maybe a bit offtopic, maybe move it to the hermetech mastering thread?

 

In conclusion, ears+honed craft ftw. Outboard, not as much ftw. Babaluma, i promise to check out your site first thing 2morrow morning after talking all this shit. Kisses buh-bye.

[Guest Babaluma]

Hey Lube Saibot!

 

I see no conflict of interest in our points of view at all, and welcome all intelligent discussion on this topic! No offence taken at all.

 

I have to agree with you that the experience of the person involved is THE most important factor here. Gear is important, at least to me, but that has to be tempered with the man hour investment in using it all effectively. And that can take years and years of practice. I also agree that a software tool in the hands of a good engineer will likely sound far better than the best/latest/most expensive hardware in the hands of a novice.

 

The best tracks I receive for mastering require the least amount of work on my part.

 

I am glad you are reserving judgement on my own work until you have heard it. I highly recommend you download the latest Pawnsphinx EP in FLAC format from my website, and give it a listen loud, as I feel that gives a very good approximation of the best of my work so far. Luckily, his philosophy and mine, of what constitutes good sound (aside from any considerations of style/genre etc.), coincide very nicely. His tracks require very little mastering, and certainly no "surgical" treatments.

 

Like you said dude, ears and honed craft ftw!

 

Please let me know what you think of my site and mastering work, and don't hesitate to send me a track of your own if you'd like me to master it for free!

[oscillik]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

punk rock has nothing to do with clipping. punk rock has everything to do with analogue distortion that comes from over-cranking amps and such, which creates additional harmonics, but most importantly doesn't clip waveforms.

 

clipping, on the other hand, occurs only in the digital realm, and just turns whatever hits the 0dB wall into a square wave that crunches, and not in a good way.

[Guest Helper ET]

This is why I buy vinyl.... only to find that half of modern vinyl pressings use (close to) CD masters

 

if this is true i will shoot myself and melt my records

[Guest Coalbucket PI]

I had my track for a compilation mastered properly, everyone else got their mastered by some dickhead (really nice guy actually) who made every track clip and now my track sounds really quiet and all the others sound distorted. FUCK

[Guest Babaluma]

TBH, if it's a compilation album, it should really be only one ME. Consistency from track to track is even more important on a comp.

[Guest sirch]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

punk rock has nothing to do with clipping. punk rock has everything to do with analogue distortion that comes from over-cranking amps and such, which creates additional harmonics, but most importantly doesn't clip waveforms.

 

clipping, on the other hand, occurs only in the digital realm, and just turns whatever hits the 0dB wall into a square wave that crunches, and not in a good way.

 

lol, i think what he means is he doesn't give a fuck if it clips and distorts in places. he actually likes that, likes the sound of it and likes the 'fuck you' aspect of it. :) which is fair enough. there's no real right way something should be mastered, imo. it's like people's music tastes, it's all a matter of one's own opinion and personal taste at the end of the day. some people like loud, clipping tracks. some people like polished, pristine tracks. some people are pure analog heads. some people are digital all the way. some people like punk. some people like pop. etc.

i think mastering engineers and producers should be jack's of all trades, really. and not just into one technique/method/sound. if people are paying you quite a lot of money and want their music to sound a certain way then you should be able to do that for them no problem.

[oscillik]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

punk rock has nothing to do with clipping. punk rock has everything to do with analogue distortion that comes from over-cranking amps and such, which creates additional harmonics, but most importantly doesn't clip waveforms.

 

clipping, on the other hand, occurs only in the digital realm, and just turns whatever hits the 0dB wall into a square wave that crunches, and not in a good way.

 

lol, i think what he means is he doesn't give a fuck if it clips and distorts in places. he actually likes that, likes the sound of it and likes the 'fuck you' aspect of it. :) which is fair enough. there's no real right way something should be mastered, imo. it's like people's music tastes, it's all a matter of one's own opinion and personal taste at the end of the day. some people like loud, clipping tracks. some people like polished, pristine tracks. some people are pure analog heads. some people are digital all the way. some people like punk. some people like pop. etc.

i think mastering engineers and producers should be jack's of all trades, really. and not just into one technique/method/sound. if people are paying you quite a lot of money and want their music to sound a certain way then you should be able to do that for them no problem.

but brickwalling isn't a statement of "fuck you" against the norm, it is the norm. and even arguing that he likes the sound of it is again a completely stupid argument, since the distortion you get from excessive brickwalling isn't the same sonically as the distortion you get from true punk.

 

as far as your statement about being versatile, i completely agree. you should be able to do a variety of different mastering techniques that fit a certain genre well. the trouble is that brickwalling is being used across the board.

[ascdi]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

punk rock has nothing to do with clipping. punk rock has everything to do with analogue distortion that comes from over-cranking amps and such, which creates additional harmonics, but most importantly doesn't clip waveforms.

 

clipping, on the other hand, occurs only in the digital realm, and just turns whatever hits the 0dB wall into a square wave that crunches, and not in a good way.

I don't think clipping and "analog distortion" are as different as you are saying. I used to think they were, but I am starting to change my mind a little bit. There's actually a whole lot of interesting things to think about when it comes to this topic, like radio producers deliberately clipping things, etc. Anyway, not to start a big disagreement or anything, just saying.

 

I think in general we're all on the same page with this thread, which is that any of these techniques when applied in excess result in a crappy listening experience. I like Clark and Flying Lotus and everything, but I wish their music was not so heavily compressed because I think I would enjoy it more.

 

The question about "sheen" is interesting, though. Granted, sometimes that's a catchall term that people use to mean "good sounding", but there is also a specific "thing" that is not compression or equalization that some mastering seems to do that I don't yet understand. Something that probably amounts to subtle distortion in delicious ways, I suppose.

[kaini]

i think he's talking about punk rock as an attitude, osc. as opposed to anything to do with genre.

[Guest sirch]

 

but brickwalling isn't a statement of "fuck you" against the norm, it is the norm. and even arguing that he likes the sound of it is again a completely stupid argument, since the distortion you get from excessive brickwalling isn't the same sonically as the distortion you get from true punk.

 

 

no, you don't get what i'm saying, oscy. you've jumped the gun a bit, silly arse. :) he didn't say he liked brick walling or even did that. and you've thrown distortion from guitars/amps and "true punk" (whatever that is) into the mix aswell, when it's not really connected to the arguement here.

and punk isn't just about guitars, amps and distortion anyway, y'know. if yek likes a bit of clipping and digital distortion (from whatever means) in his tracks, then so the fuck what? lol

 

i think he's talking about punk rock as an attitude, osc. as opposed to anything to do with genre.

 

Bingo! lol

[oscillik]

i like clipping and distortion (in my music) but it's all part of my punk rock aesthetic, i have had complaints....

punk rock has nothing to do with clipping. punk rock has everything to do with analogue distortion that comes from over-cranking amps and such, which creates additional harmonics, but most importantly doesn't clip waveforms.

 

clipping, on the other hand, occurs only in the digital realm, and just turns whatever hits the 0dB wall into a square wave that crunches, and not in a good way.

I don't think clipping and "analog distortion" are as different as you are saying. I used to think they were, but I am starting to change my mind a little bit.

you can change your mind all you like, doesn't change the fact that digital clipping and analogue distortion are both technically and sonically very different.

 

i think he's talking about punk rock as an attitude, osc. as opposed to anything to do with genre.

as i've already said, if he's saying that he likes clipping so that he can be 'against the norm' then he is actually going with the grain, because the majority of the pop-loving generation actually like the LOUDNESS. so again, it's a silly argument.

 

 

but brickwalling isn't a statement of "fuck you" against the norm, it is the norm. and even arguing that he likes the sound of it is again a completely stupid argument, since the distortion you get from excessive brickwalling isn't the same sonically as the distortion you get from true punk.

 

 

no, you don't get what i'm saying, oscy. you've jumped the gun a bit, silly arse. :) he didn't say he liked brick walling or even did that. and you've thrown distortion from guitars/amps and "true punk" (whatever that is) into the mix aswell, when it's not really connected to the arguement here.

and punk isn't just about guitars, amps and distortion anyway, y'know. if yek likes a bit of clipping and digital distortion (from whatever means) in his tracks, then so the fuck what? lol

 

i think he's talking about punk rock as an attitude, osc. as opposed to anything to do with genre.

 

Bingo! lol

:handegg:

[Guest sirch]

what a "pretentious music asshole" ! lol

[oscillik]

what a "pretentious music asshole" ! lol

:handegg:

[Guest sirch]

gotta love pretentious music assholes, lol

 

i'd like to hear some of your tunes, yek.. i like a bit of clippage and distortion myself. :)

[luke viia]

but brickwalling isn't a statement of "fuck you" against the norm, it is the norm. and even arguing that he likes the sound of it is again a completely stupid argument, since the distortion you get from excessive brickwalling isn't the same sonically as the distortion you get from true punk.

 

omg lol

 

completely stupid argument, the distortion is NOT THE SAME SONICALLY

 

true punk lol

 

now that's a handegg

[Guest Scrambled Ears]

This is why I buy vinyl.... only to find that half of modern vinyl pressings use (close to) CD masters

 

if this is true i will shoot myself and melt my records

even if you can't notice the difference?

 

anyways swinging backwards on the pendulum with everyone screaming save the dynamics seems to be just as bad as the loudness war if the goal is to ascribe some universal audio treatment. anyway im tired of bitching about the radio. I know I would hate the music that they play regardless of how it's mastered. I just never want to work a job again where I have to listen to that shit.

 

and one more, everyone bitching about sound quality of iphones and ipods is full of shit. if its the center of your home studio ya maybe you should reconsider...but dont forget, its a fucking walkman! what are you going to carry a turntable around for the precious crackles and pops...