September 11 2001 Conspiracy Thread

[Boxing Day]

 

LOL , Belgian humor

[Guest nene multiple assgasms]

you won't find me riding one of those anthrax trains, that's for sure.

[awepittance]

On the anthrax subject - you're saying/implying Bruce Ivins was told to do it by the govt., and that pressure caused him to take his own life? Or, he was actually murdered and covered up to look as a suicide?

 

Why couldn't he have been a lone nut who tried to frame Al Qaeda for reasons of his own?

 

Edit: I seem to recall him spelling stuff wrong on the envelopes, weren't his attempts to pose as an Islamic extremist pretty laughable? You'd think if the govt. was behind it they'd want it to look more convincing...

 

what i meant of is that there is ample proof that the anthrax came from within our own government, if it was the act of a lone nut as we are lead to believe (he is now dead so he cannot defend himself) then it's still an inside job by definition. How much of an 'inside job' it was remains up for debate.

 

it was not an Al Qaeda attack. You will see very few if any retractions to this effect in any major media outlet. They did cover the bruce ivans story to some degree but none of them explicitly said it in those terms.

 

To me it's a pretty clear cut case of 'shut up nothing to see here' the guy is dead, he can't defend himself, he had a smear campaign launched against him posthumously, i honestly find that very suspicious. Why did they try so hard to pin these attacks solely on a dead man who can't defend himself? Why did the government not make an effort to tell people that these attacks were not al Qaeda? They played into it 100% even leading to Colin Powell presenting evidence that Iraq was behind it at the uN. The fact that it was 'common knowledge' for over 5-6 years that al qaeda was behind the anthrax attacks disgusts me. Our government wanted us to be as afraid as possible.

 

there is an interesting story by another fort detrick employee, Steven Hatfill who worked with Bruce Ivans who claims that the FBI and us government were surveilling him for over 2 years, making him almost mentally loose it on the brink of a full paranoid psychotic break. He admits that he contemplated suicide several times for the way the government was treating him. in other words in his mind the government almost lead him to commit suicide simply from the stress of being wrongfully accused and subsquently smeared in the media. Was Bruce Ivans compelled to do the same thing? IS there any proof that he is the guilty sole anthrax guy? no, we are going completely on the word of the FBI who didn't have enough evidence to convict or charge him before his suicide. If there was no evidence to take this guy to court then how are we supposed to believe it?

 

edit: i forgot to address and important part of what you said, that yes there were inconsistencies in the letters sent out. Not spelling but the way in which the person wrote 'allah is great' , most muslims either say the entire non english phrase or say in english 'god is great' . That initially is what caused a lot of 'conspiracy theorists' to think they were fake in the first place (long before Bruce Ivins died)

i'm willing to concede that maybe he WAS a lone nut, and decided on his own to frame al quaeda for an even more fear inducing attack than 9/11 itself. That being said, the US government became complicit in the act as soon as they started playing into the 'frame up' that Bruce Ivans supposedly contrived. If you actually watch the case the US made at the UN for the invasion of Iraq it entirely REVOLVES around the issue of biological weapons, specifically anthrax. I don't even think nukes are mentioned, as they were long debunked before the UN hearing. If you read that greenwald article i posted, there were frequent attempts by whitehouse staff to imply that Saddam Hussein was behind the anthrax attacks. It's very hard for me to believe that the government did not know they were dealing with their own batch of highly sophisticated engineered anthrax spores at the outset of the investigation. In fact a lot of people who have done bio weapons work knew it had to be from a US government source right from th beginning but they were not listened to.

 

side note: steven hatfill won 5.8 million dollars in a lawsuit against the US government for smearing him and ruining his life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SZ2lxDJmdg

[vertsk8er419]

FALSE-FLAG OPERATIONS. WAR GAMES. TRAINING FOR ACTUAL WAR. it's what 911 was, it's what the Anthrax scare was, it's what the subway bombings in England were, and it's what the bombings in Spain were. why? because they were all related to Taliban and Al-Quada. what is Taliban and Al-Quada? A NETWORK TO ALLOW FALSE-FLAG OPERATIONS TO HAPPEN. that's what it is, a black operation by the black government, run militarily, to orchestrate these scares/attacks, make it look like a foreign threat for justification, so they can finally go to war and expand further their control, and so 'we the people' can continue to be sheep to the picture at large.

 

it's what's currently happening in Yemen and the Gulf of Aden, and it's going to continue to happen until we have a New "War on Terror" on our hands, Yemen is ground zero for that, I believe. keep your eyes on the activity in/around the Gulf of Aden, as well as within the borders of your own country, for that matter...

[Redruth]

awepittance i honestly and genuinely applaud you my friend - there have been quite a few brilliant posts in this thread imo. sure there's been mud slinging and lol's to be expected in any

public/semi-public forum, but i believe dialog, debate and these exchanges of ideas even when sometimes difficult are our intrinsic responsibility as mutually dependent beings. what may be common

knowledge to one is measureless inspiration to another - one mans trash is another mans treasure and all that - anyway i think this forum has a unique association which should be recognized and appreciated.

[awepittance]

awepittance i honestly and genuinely applaud you my friend - there have been quite a few brilliant posts in this thread imo. sure there's been mud slinging and lol's to be expected in any

public/semi-public forum, but i believe dialog, debate and these exchanges of ideas even when sometimes difficult are our intrinsic responsibility a mutually dependent beings. what may be common

knowledge to one is measureless inspiration to another - one mans trash is another mans treasure and all that - anyway i think this forum has a unique association which should be recognized and appreciated.

 

 

thanks! i've grown a pretty big tolerance when doing this when it comes to outright ad hominem logical fallacies. I usually don't call people out on them because it seems pretentious as fuck to even use that term

[awepittance]

also its worth noting who the Anthrax was sent to.

 

Three members of Sen Russ Feingold's staff also received positive test results for anthrax exposure.

 

Dick Gephardt, the Democratic leader in the House, said that the anthrax detected in the Daschle letter was "a higher grade, weapons-grade" that was unlike the types detected in New York and Florida.

 

 

Tom Daschle and Russ Feingold were two of the only notable people in the government who were vehemently against the patriot act, Tom Daschle after receiving the anthrax letter changes his mind on the Patriot Act. not 'proof' but highly coincidental.

 

to illustrate how wide-spread the attempt was to link anthrax to Iraq check out this

 

August 6, 2008: ABC News Reporter Denies Misconduct in 2001 Stories about Anthrax Attacks and Iraq

In the face of pressure after the death of anthrax attacks suspect Bruce Ivins, ABC News responds to criticism of its false stories in October 2001 linking the anthrax attacks to Iraq (see October 26-November 1, 2001). ABC News, particularly its reporter Brian Ross, repeatedly pushed a story claiming that initial analysis of the anthrax used in the attacks showed that it contained bentonite, and that this was a signature of anthrax used by the Iraqi government. In fact, no tests ever showed any signs of bentonite in the anthrax, and bentonite was not a signature of Iraqi anthrax in any case (see October 26-November 1, 2001). Ross responds to questions about his reporting, but to the obscure media outlet TVNewser instead of on ABC News itself. He says: “In the end, you’re only as good as your sources. My sources were good, we just got information that became outdated before they could update. My point of view is viewers of World News knew early that week we had been wrong to say bentonite.” In 2001, Ross claimed his story was backed by four independent sources. Now, he reveals, “Our sources were current and former government scientists who were all involved in analyzing the substance in the letter.” But he says that anthrax suspect Ivins was not one of those sources: “No he was not. If it was Ivins, I would report that in a second.” He continues to maintain that ABC News was not lied to and initial tests had simply given a mistaken result, confusing bentonite for silica

[karmakramer]

thanks twiddlebot for not including the word twat in your critique, much appreciated

 

huh? :(

[awepittance]

thanks twiddlebot for not including the word twat in your critique, much appreciated

 

huh? :(

 

it's a rarity for someone who disagrees with this on watmm to actually be civil and not resort to hit and run name calling, so i commend twiddlebot for trying to actually engage the 'other side'

[karmakramer]

thanks twiddlebot for not including the word twat in your critique, much appreciated

 

huh? :(

 

it's a rarity for someone who disagrees with this on watmm to actually be civil and not resort to hit and run name calling, so i commend twiddlebot for trying to actually engage the 'other side'

 

oh okay, I thought you were referring I was a twat :)

[delet...]

i too commend awepittance, he's like our lawyer, working his but off in watmm on these matters, for everyone's good.

 

cheers mate.

 

;-]

[Guest pulsewarrior]

those loose change guys seem like dicks

 

pop sci FTW

 

yeah unfortunately people too often try to take down the messenger rather than the message. Websites like 'screw loose change' for example, spend 90% of their efforts going after the creator Dylan Avery.

 

Again this is the problem with trying to get real information in regards to 9/11, people will get turned off by the messenger if they rub them the wrong way (avery, alex jones, david icke) , often times these messangers are not eloquent enough or good enough to deliver the message properly.

 

if you think that loose change 'debate' proves either side of any case you need to do some further examination.

 

Loose change 1 & 2 are completely filled with disinformation, i think they are probably the worst and least clarifying 9/11 truth documentaries in existence .

 

if any of the super dismissive people around here actually watched 9/11 press for truth or Improbable Collapse or even Power of Nightmares, they wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this stuff. but again these can be written off by the comfortable individual as 'those are just conspiracy theory movies' infinite loop

 

how could someone watch a debate between editors from popular mechanics and 2 college kids who made a free google video movie on their computer would be some sort of final clarification 'ah so there actually was no conspiracy, cleared all up' wtf? can you really not see how unbalanced that debate is? I mean at least level the playing field a little, Dylan looks stoned out of his mind in that interview

 

The war on terror isn't about frightening people, although some wish to use it for that exact purpose. It's about defeating those who seek to destroy us.

 

wow

 

honestly, why are you so elitist. you're the one that should typically have the burden of proof, yet you're always challenging everyone else to provide detailed evidence and references when they claim that the default, popular explanation of an event is the most believable one. then when they do give examples you just whine and ask for more and more evidence ad nauseum. get off your little soap box dude.

 

i for one didn't say that the popular mechanics sessions cleared the debate but i said i felt they thoroughly routed loose change and a bunch of other outlandish docs out there. a few of their editors gave very reasonable, very common sense and down to earth rebuttals to alot of conspiracy information floating around. apparently both sides were too low brow for you though.

 

in the end, these are all just opinions anyway. there are no technical experts here, government workers privy to relevant information or anyone else that knows jack fucking shit. we're all just a bunch of retards on a forum filled with 16 year old drug addicts arguing what happened on 9/11 like all the little opinions and docos we've taken in somehow make us experts and supreme infallible internet forum debate warriors. and you've chosen to be the one standing on a big super conspiracy soapbox where you hardly yield to anyone and we all owe it to you to prove our meager little opionions.

 

although honestly where i'm coming from is just that i'm more willing to trust in common sense and reasonable thinking (ie the PM ediors here) than outlandish, wildly unprovable theories propagated by unqualified people who typically have a pattern of disbelieving popular explanations for traumatic public events etc

[Atop]

looking at a slightly cloud covered full moon through the branches of an old tree......

 

living in the forest, at night staring at the moon, every day awoken by the sun......

 

a crumbling cityscape slowly but surely falling in the back of my mind......

[chenGOD]

 

after the 1993 word trade center bombing it was widely known even among fiction writers like Tom Clancey that the next big attack on the horizon was going to be some kind of commercial airline missile attack on a famous landmark.

 

 

I remember reading that book "Debt of Honor" a couple of years before the World Trade Center incident. Then when they started trotting out the line that "no one could have possibly foreseen such an incident" I thought to myself - you guys clearly need to spend more time on the can reading Tom Clancy novels.

 

I really wish I could remember the name of the novel, but another interesting one I read had a Soviet deep cover agent become the head of the Federal Reserve.

[karmakramer]

nobody could have foreseen such an incident is lol... how much are we paying the CIA again? And they couldn't comprehend such a concept lol

[Guest imolt]

The 9/11 conspiracy theory debate(amongst others),always brings right to the front of my mind a book i used too have,which involves the jesuits/papacy,as basically a world domination led organisation,literally willing too do anything,too secure power & control,incredibily right-wing in its own nature..

 

as i see it,if an organistion like that did actually exsist,it would prove the point,that we do have very little control over our lives,concerning laws of the land,& also how we come too view/objectify the world,it is of course totally fantastical,that something as big as a religious movement,could have such control over so many things(funding for goverment actions/influencing changes of law,the list goes on)..

 

but its always at the back of my mind that it could be true,but i'm not obsessive about it,there are dozen upon dozens of tidbits of information about 9/11 that suggest it could of been the goverment,that could feed the paranoid mind,it all depends on how seriouesly you take the notion of why a certain movement that exsists would want too carry out such events..

 

 

imolt....

[Guest theSun]

nobody could have foreseen such an incident is lol... how much are we paying the CIA again? And they couldn't comprehend such a concept lol

 

didn't some shit come out that showed they were thinking that commercial airplanes could be turned into kamikaze? like way before 9-11 happened? i'm way too lazy to find it

 

also, i still haven't heard a good reason for why that big ass building next to the WTC actually fell down. looked exactly like controlled demolition via implosion.

 

i stopped caring though, i just want to move to the woods and gtfo out of society.

[TwiddleBot]

my favorite conspiracy.. 10 years ago i was still flirting with the fundy cult of my youth and when i woke up that morning everyone thought it was proof that the end time prophecies had come to pass and god's war was just about upon us and jesus was about to rush in and start the next millenium. were they ever freaking out. of course, if you demanded evidence, they'd secretly think you were somehow retarded, or a smug looney moral relativist atheist satanist.

[Redruth]

looking at a slightly cloud covered full moon through the branches of an old tree......

 

living in the forest, at night staring at the moon, every day awoken by the sun......

 

a crumbling cityscape slowly but surely falling in the back of my mind......

[kcinsu]

just a little side story here...

 

About 1 month before 9-11, my older cousin took me out for drinks, and we got to talking about the world. I forgot how it came up, but I basically said something to the extent of "what really scares me, isn't war... It's hard for me to imagine war in the present USA... but it's terrorism that scares me. Imagine some radical terrorist that is ready to give his own life... what if he just hijacked a plane and used it as a massive missile, to plow right into the white house, or some other building?"

 

A month later... 9-11. The next time I saw my cousin, the first thing out of his mouth was "do you remember what you said?" It really freaked him out that as 9-11 happened he was immediately thinking back to what I had said.

 

/story.

[awepittance]

those loose change guys seem like dicks

 

pop sci FTW

 

yeah unfortunately people too often try to take down the messenger rather than the message. Websites like 'screw loose change' for example, spend 90% of their efforts going after the creator Dylan Avery.

 

Again this is the problem with trying to get real information in regards to 9/11, people will get turned off by the messenger if they rub them the wrong way (avery, alex jones, david icke) , often times these messangers are not eloquent enough or good enough to deliver the message properly.

 

if you think that loose change 'debate' proves either side of any case you need to do some further examination.

 

Loose change 1 & 2 are completely filled with disinformation, i think they are probably the worst and least clarifying 9/11 truth documentaries in existence .

 

if any of the super dismissive people around here actually watched 9/11 press for truth or Improbable Collapse or even Power of Nightmares, they wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this stuff. but again these can be written off by the comfortable individual as 'those are just conspiracy theory movies' infinite loop

 

how could someone watch a debate between editors from popular mechanics and 2 college kids who made a free google video movie on their computer would be some sort of final clarification 'ah so there actually was no conspiracy, cleared all up' wtf? can you really not see how unbalanced that debate is? I mean at least level the playing field a little, Dylan looks stoned out of his mind in that interview

 

The war on terror isn't about frightening people, although some wish to use it for that exact purpose. It's about defeating those who seek to destroy us.

 

wow

 

honestly, why are you so elitist. you're the one that should typically have the burden of proof, yet you're always challenging everyone else to provide detailed evidence and references when they claim that the default, popular explanation of an event is the most believable one. then when they do give examples you just whine and ask for more and more evidence ad nauseum. get off your little soap box dude.

 

i dont mind the elitist label, but you don't have to straw man me as you've done here. Who's given me examples after i've asked them (or whining as you say) and i keep asking for more evidence ad nauseum? If this is not a straw man attack surely you will be able to point to a part of the discussion where i've done this.

 

posting a debate between loose change creators & popular mechanics and acting like it settles the debate is the same as posting a debate about abortion on the bill oreily show between a conservative and a liberal. Have we heard a strong argument from the pro abortion side ? probably not. I'm not saying the debate is 'low brow' i'm saying that it's not adequate to squash most of the unanswered questions people have. I understand that i am not an engineer, a scientist or a historian but are you honestly serious that we shouldn't even be speculating or having a discussion about what happened because we are 'unqualified'? I really don't understand this mindset.

 

i don't have a problem with you getting on the soapbox of 'we shouldn't be talking about this none of us our qualified, we don't know anything' so please let me allow to get on mine :)

 

getting back to the 'super big conspiracy' !

 

lol i didn't even realize you were mature individual who had this valuable bit of information to add the the discussion. forgive my serious response..

 

no-one really knows what happened so i wish everyone would just shut the fuck up already. bunch of obsessed twats who collect information from questionable sources on the internet, cobble it together and then spout it off as hard truth. assholes.

 

you tell me to stop being elitist? I'd rather engage with people who actually form well though out opinions in this thread. nothing to see here everybody!

[marf]

 

A month later... 9-11. The next time I saw my cousin, the first thing out of his mouth was "do you remember what you said?" It really freaked him out that as 9-11 happened he was immediately thinking back to what I had said.

 

/story.

wow, I believe in premonitions. def. Sounds like you had one

[perunamuusi]

JAWS DID 911

 

[delet...]

 

A month later... 9-11. The next time I saw my cousin, the first thing out of his mouth was "do you remember what you said?" It really freaked him out that as 9-11 happened he was immediately thinking back to what I had said.

 

/story.

wow, I believe in premonitions. def. Sounds like you had one

 

read earlier in the thread about this idea being in the media/popular culture. I was thinking about it as well before it happened, but i doubt that i'm nostradamus (sp) .

[kcinsu]

Im actually fairly certain I am nostradamus