Premier League Season 2011-2012

[chenGOD]

Did you just imply that xabi alonso is not a DM?

 

I don't think we need to continue this conversation any further.

[Guest Blue Peter Cheat]

Ha! He's a deep lying mid definitely, but he's of the cultured, metronomic type. He's not a Roy Keane or Paul Ince. He's not primarily defensive.

 

This is both Alonso's and Carrick's style: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/mar/19/paul-scholes-xavi-andrea-pirlo-playmaker

[chenGOD]

Both Alonso and Carrick are holding/defensive midfielders. And articles about Scholes/Xavi/Pirlo that mention Carrick once, in passing, do nothing to help your argument.

This is Carrick (warning, long article).

 

Anyways, enough of this. Newcastle - magnificent! Fuck me those were two smashing goals by Cisse.

 

 

[Guest Gary C]

 

Jessssuuus!

 

I thought the first was stunning. Henry-esque.

 

But then the second!? £9m!?

[Guest Gary C]

Alan Pardew for Manager of the Year?

 

Even if City win the league I don't think Mancini's dallying over Tevez and Balotelli is worthy of it. Ferguson, meh. Wenger, admittedly clawed his way back up but the beginning of the season shouldn't be forgotten. Harry fucked it up (mostly).

 

Pardew.

 

And I was one of the people that was sad to see Hughton go.

[Guest Blue Peter Cheat]

Both Alonso and Carrick are holding/defensive midfielders. And articles about Scholes/Xavi/Pirlo that mention Carrick once, in passing, do nothing to help your argument.

This is Carrick (warning, long article).

 

Well, I never claimed it was an article about Carrick. I presented it as a description of the type of player he is. To lable him a defensive midfielder downplays his better qualities IMHO. Holding midfielder, maybe, but again I don't think it does him justice. Likewise, Alonso.

 

Put simply, he is a passer, not a runner, and to get back to the original point of contention, Fellaini is very much a runner. That is exactly what Utd lack. Especially with Fletcher, Cleverly and Anderson sidelined. (Of those three only Cleverly has the potential to be world class). I think Fellaini is quite close to Toure in playing style.

 

Cisse's second is unbelievable.

[YO303]

Alan Pardew for Manager of the Year?

 

Even if City win the league I don't think Mancini's dallying over Tevez and Balotelli is worthy of it. Ferguson, meh. Wenger, admittedly clawed his way back up but the beginning of the season shouldn't be forgotten. Harry fucked it up (mostly).

 

Pardew.

 

And I was one of the people that was sad to see Hughton go.

 

Its going to be between Pardew, Brendan Rodgers and Paul Lambert. I hope Alan Pardew gets it but the media always have a say in these things so its probably going to be Brendan Rodgers.

[BobDobalina]

So it's my understanding that if Chelsea beats Bayern in the CL final, they get automatic entry in next year's group stage. Amirite that this would then leave the 4th place finisher shit outta luck (shipped to Europa League instead)?

 

Every PL table you look at (even the "official" one) still has that magical line drawn between 4th and 5th, which is a bit misleading to say the least.

 

Pulling for Bayern in the final anyway so hopefully it won't come to this.

[dr lopez]

yeah that's right.

 

I mean bayern are going to win anyway so nbd

[chenGOD]

Pardew's a good pick. But 303 is right about media influence. And Rodgers side play some attractive football with no recognizable big names or surprise stars like Ba and Cisse turned out to be.

 

 

blue peter cheat: Scholes/Xavi/Pirlo are quite different players than Alonso and Carrick. All of them got forward consistently and were never expected to break up play (witness Scholes magical tackling ability lol).

 

Alonso and Carrick both self-identify as defensive/holding midfielders.

fourfourtwo did a long ass series on the holding midfielder featuring carrick: here's the first installment

Now I will agree they are not classic DMs. They don't get stuck in like Mascherano did for Liverpool (remember when he was good at his game and not getting exposed at CB? lol) or like Makelele did for Chelski. They do have great passing range and vision - especially Alonso - but positionally and tactically they are employed as holding midfielders. They break up play, protect the back four and then are expected to hold up the ball coming out of defense. The role of DM/holding has certainly turned out to be one of the most important roles on the pitch in the last decade or so.

 

 

 

We don't need runners at United, we need a CM who is calm on the ball and has a bit of creativity. Cleverly won't be world class. He'll be good, with moments of excellence but never world class. Our play flows through our wings and has done for ages.

[Guest Blue Peter Cheat]

blue peter cheat: Scholes/Xavi/Pirlo are quite different players than Alonso and Carrick. All of them got forward consistently and were never expected to break up play (witness Scholes magical tackling ability lol).

 

Alonso and Carrick both self-identify as defensive/holding midfielders.

fourfourtwo did a long ass series on the holding midfielder featuring carrick: here's the first installment

Now I will agree they are not classic DMs. They don't get stuck in like Mascherano did for Liverpool (remember when he was good at his game and not getting exposed at CB? lol) or like Makelele did for Chelski. They do have great passing range and vision - especially Alonso - but positionally and tactically they are employed as holding midfielders. They break up play, protect the back four and then are expected to hold up the ball coming out of defense. The role of DM/holding has certainly turned out to be one of the most important roles on the pitch in the last decade or so.

 

During the last few years Scholes has been deployed deeper hasn't he? I know in his prime he was much closer to the the forward/s but owing to his decreasing mobility I had thought Ferguson had played him deeper. Xavi went the opposite way, he used to play a deeper, metronomic game but has since been pushed further forward, where Guardiola thought (correctly) he could do more damage. Busquets now plays deep, with a similar style to Makele. Neither are playmakers but they are 'runners' and they tackle(d). Pirlo has perhaps been the archetypal deep-lying playmaker for years. Deep-lying playmakers tend to intercept rather than tackle and I think this fits with both Carrick and Alonso. Yes, they protect the defence, but they are supposed to be pivotal figures, controlling the tempo of the game, collecting the ball from the back and launching each move. They are 'passers'.

 

The problem with labels like defensive mid, holding mid, attacking mid, etc is the same as with the basic formation descriptions. They're not enough to accurately describe the tactics or style of play employed. 4-5-1 can be defensive or offensive. The holding midfieder can be a rampaging ball winner or a graceful, tempo-controlling playmaker. Top flight football is too fluid and tactically complex for the basic terms to offer much insight other than the general position of each player.

 

We don't need runners at United, we need a CM who is calm on the ball and has a bit of creativity. Cleverly won't be world class. He'll be good, with moments of excellence but never world class. Our play flows through our wings and has done for ages.

 

Ferguson has almost always had a runner and a passer in central midfield. When I say runner I don't necessarily mean someone who continually makes forward runs - you're dead right, midfield passes invariably go out wide and Ferguson has, as far as i can remember, always used fast wingers as the main attacking strategy (Beckham apart?) - but a more mobile player like Paul Ince, Roy Keane, Nicky Butt, Fletcher, Anderson. There is no runner in a Scholes, Carrick, Giggs combination and players like Toure and Fellaini will run all over them.

[jhonny]

good posting, that.

[chenGOD]

So Carrick/Xabi Alonso are still holding midfielders, as they rarely move that high up the pitch, which correlates exactly with the description of Xavi/Scholes. Scholes has only been a deep-lying playmaker the last couple of season, and Xavi has always had the instinct to go forward - though he certainly lies deeper than Iniesta. So Carrick/Alonso spend most of their time in the defensive side of the field of play whilst Xavi/Scholes have typically been attacking CMs (barring Scholes' last couple of seasons)

Pirlo probably is a good comparison, but he usually plays deeper even still.

Busquets tackles?

 

Regarding the runner - to me that boils down to someone with the creativity and vision to get into the spaces in the midfield. We don't need someone to just work hard and run around. While Keane and Butt certainly weren't afraid to get "stuck in" (christ keane would never finish a match the way the game has turned) they were also great at exploiting spaces. So i suppose we're both agreeing on the same thing just terming them differently.

 

Mostly though we need some bloody heart. We didn't show any against citeh.

[chenGOD]

Fucking Norwich oh my god. I think I was touching myself during that match.

 

Also Dean Sturridge should never be allowed anywhere near a commentary booth. Jesus fucking wept.

[Guest Gary C]

http://arseblog.com/2012/05/arsenal-3-3-norwich-blown-it/

 

We have bottled it, big time, and I think the weakness in our mentality is so hard-wired into us we’ll keep repeating this mistakes time and time again. I have no real hope that anyone will do us the favour we need, and even if they do I can see us choke again at West Brom. That seems to be what we do, and does a team that has picked up 3 points from the last 12 really merit Champions League football?

Of course we can’t say it’s over till its over, this season above all others should tell us that nothing is impossible, but to have it in our hands and let it slip the way we did is just so frustrating.

The chance was there – a chance we made for ourselves it should be added – and we blew it in heartbreaking style.

 

Sums up how I've felt all season, really. I have never been as angry with Arsenal as I was yesterday. When we were shit this season (Man U) it was hard to be angry as we were so pathetic, but continually fucking up a decent shot at third place is horrific.

[Guest Gary C]

Villa just scored against Spurs.

 

City and Newcastle drawing at half-time.

 

Arsenal might just get away with it.

[hexagon son]

Chen, I apologise to not respondng to your responce. This season is too tight nd emotional for either side. It could be Fergie's 20th, it could be our first top finish since 1968. Expect something more coherent from me after next Sunday. I did expect more from you against Swansea thought. And for Rooney to be awarded best goal of the premier league ever? Sensasional fucking bollox. Nice goal but seen much better in the past 15 years. (Umm, can't think of one off hand! )

[chenGOD]

Yeah i didn't think that Rooney goal was best ever in the premier league.

Bergkamp, Cantona, that Cisse goal against Chelsea the other week.

 

Realistically, the leagues is citeh's. QPR will fight, but I don't think they have it in them to match you lot at the Etihad. We had a decent first half against Swansea, but were flat in the second, and Swansea played much better as well in the second. To be fair though, we were never going to overcome a 10 goal difference. Obviously I'll be hoping for some miracle (like a draw from QPR), but..ehhh.

[YO303]

Watching Ashley Young running around like a crazy person thinking Man U were going to score 10 goals was hilarious, poor soul had hope.

[YO303]

How is this not a red card?

 

[Guest Gary C]

That's pretty horrendous. It looks more accidental than intentional, the fact that Essien puts his studs in the back of Carroll's legs, but either way he was trying to lunge with both feet off the ground, so yeah... definite yellow/strong red depending on prior fouls and atmosphere.

[Guest Gary C]

Season in review?

 

Best player: Robin van Persie (Yaya Toure is close second)

Manager of the Year: Alan Pardew

Best Goal: Peter Crouch vs Man City

Best Signing: Papiss Cisse, 12m

Worst Signing: Jordan Henderson, ~20m

Overachievers: Newcastle

Underachievers: Liverpool (even though they're currently only 6 points behind their finish last season; they've spent way too much on signings with no obvious reward)

[Npoess]

It's been the most exciting PrL season I can think of.

[Guest Rambo]

Season in review?

 

Best player: Robin van Persie (Yaya Toure is close second)

Manager of the Year: Alan Pardew

Best Goal: Peter Crouch vs Man City

Best Signing: Papiss Cisse, 12m

Worst Signing: Jordan Henderson, ~20m

Overachievers: Newcastle

Underachievers: Liverpool (even though they're currently only 6 points behind their finish last season; they've spent way too much on signings with no obvious reward)

 

 

I think that's a good call. Henderson was £13 million plus add ons though apparently. Thought to go up to around £17 million eventually.

[Guest Mirezzi]

I preferred the Cisse goal for sheer "WTF did that come from?" factor. Crouch, to be honest, hit the lottery.

 

Liverpool have maybe the top three horrid signings with Henderson, Carroll, and Day.