The Rules: Official Discussion & Debate

[keltoi]

 

the removal of so called 'off topic' posts in the BoC threads was a perfect example of heavy handed moderation... people were voicing their excitement not going off-topic. removing exuberance and enthusiasm from a music enthusiasts forum doesn't make sense to me and leaves only factual input, and "there are plenty of other places on the net for that kind of thing" like wikipedia. anyway as refreshing as this discussion is, it's futile. joyrex's ball, his rules... play or don't.

Well, when you read a page or two of nonsense when there is the more exciting aspect of you know, actually discussing the impending reveal of a new Boards album after 9 fucking years... you can see how I'd want to tidy up a bit so others don't have to trawl through such nonsense, right?

 

The whole point of making this into it's own pinned "Official" thread was to open up the lines of discussion, and hopefully, come to some understanding about the rules, my intentions, etc. - you'd prefer if I just went back to doing things without any (apparent) rhyme or reason? I don't want to, nor do I think others do here.

 

 

on the first point, no... it's intolerant of the very nature of a music fan. i'd expect BoC fans to get excited and express their excitement colourfully after 9 years wait. intolerant people bitch about others getting excited.

 

on the 2nd point, i'm all for you being more up front but i can't help feeling that everyone trying to reason with you is wasting their time.

[Wyern]

Isn't there a warning system?

 

Should be enough I think. If you're warned for bad behaviour and continue to do it then you should be banned. Makes sense to me at least

[OneToThirtySix]

 

 

 

 

I don't think we can really "foresee" where the overall direction of WATMM is headed. We can really only tell how it goes on a day-by-day basis, i.e. the present. We can keep a track record of its history though, such as in the parent thread of this one.

 

Same goes with life in general, really.

You would recommend someone post a risque thread every day to find out where the line is?

Nope, not recommending anything of the sort. No one can control what anyone else does, but what's already been done can be edited or rearranged. It's not like the concept of "pre-crimes" in Minority Report.

 

Sorry if I'm getting all existential.

Whatever. I'm not talking about where the forum ends up, I'm asking Joyrex to provide an idea of what he wants out of this forum so the guidelines are clear. He's mentioned how this board is viewed by professionals, but I doubt he wants this place to turn into the kind of forum where GenBan gets relabeled "Food, Arts & Crafts, and Modesty".

Here's what I (ideally) want out of this forum (and site):

• Everyone have a good time coming here, and contribute meaningfully.
• Have WATMM be THE electronic music resource online - get back to my nerdy, obsessive collecting of Featured Artists minutiae and have it as a resource for fans to utilize, in the best format and presentation possible, with user contributions and involvement.
• Have the major artists and labels look to WATMM as a way to interface with their fans, and as a conduit for them to promote their works.
• Create an environment and inspire budding artists interested in electronic music to share their works, contribute to others, collaborate, and make connections to further their own goals and careers.
• In addition to all the above, have a community and culture unlike any other online, where we all share a laugh, talk about the issues of the day, and share non-music interests and insights with one another, all while (hopefully) respecting one another, and knowing when to agree to disagree. (OK, getting deep in here...)

In the process of accomplishing the above (or attempting to as best we can), create an environment and community we are proud of, and not one we'd cringe to be associated with, or act in such a way we'd be ashamed to discuss with others openly.

 

Now I know realistically some of those are a bit idealistic, but I truly feel they are somewhat attainable - and don't require any lowering of personal standards just to "fit in" with the crowd or garner attention through one's behaviour.

I figured as much. You want to be able to brag about it, not be worried your mother or somebody else you know might check it out.

 

edit: I later realized this sounded like I meant Joyrex specifically, I actually meant the forum on the whole.

[Guest umop_apisdn]

Alright. First off, Joyrex, I've gotta say thanks for providing a place many of us have used, as I have, for a decade or longer. As silly as it may seem, I vaguely remember making the transition from lurker to member in a crowd of largely anonymous members, though over all of this time I choose not to say anything more often than I do. I've participated in little more than the GB subforum simply because I've never had much to say about a release. I like many releases, but I am no musician. I don't have much of a place in any other subforum here, though I will lurk about. Though I believe my presence here goes largely unnoticed, it's fun to interact with the quirky characters that run about. I've gone through periods of more or less forgetting about this place since it was cleansed (not using that in a dramatic sense) because of that lull in IDM that really wasn't what brought us all here in the first place. On top of a remarkable lack of product from the most easily recognizable IDM musicians for quite some time (which just began breaking recently), the loss of constant hilarity [albeit largely NSFW] that made this place attractive had sucked the life out of this place.

 

Let me get this out. Trolls and all that comes with them are the one thing I hate most about the internet. The whole culture of it sucks. Unfortunately, dissension can sometimes be misconstrued and labelled as shitty trolling. It's easier to make a snarky remark and write someone off by labeling them as a troll than to make the attempt at reading what they say on this topic and giving it a consideration for being something sincere. It's a 5-letter term for internet douchebaggery, and it's spiraled out of control and swept across the internet like a wildfire. Please don't let yourself stoop so low as to call members of your forum trolls, even if they are. Recognition of trolls is the thing that keeps them alive.

 

I got on here not too long ago today to find my avatar had been deleted at some point between making it last night and getting on today. I have no way to say who did it, really, though I am able to see who the last few visitors were to my profile. That's beside the point. I'll agree that this particular point might be better addressed in a PM, but at the same time it relates to the topic at hand and the argument some people are making. I don't know what was wrong with the avatar, other than Fred is a touchy subject right now. To be honest with you, I've never known Fred personally and my interactions with him here have been minimal. I don't know if I was skirting the rule of banned members or what, but the avatar was clean and had a purpose. It should be pretty obvious by this point that there are some people that sorely miss Fred, the hearty welcome backs he got in his short-lived return should serve testament, on top of the discussion that has followed. And look, I'll be honest, I never PMed you or any other authority to question his banning, I went by the bits and pieces that have been discussed by others. So I don't know I'm wrong for that. Though, I still don't know what rule I broke to get my avatar deleted. For Christ's sake, you have a moderator with MSPainted balls for an avatar. If it's simply about a reminder of a banned user, how about the avatar that relates to long-gone Lion (with a bit of salsa)? Either I'm terribly mistaken (in which case, sorry for bringing it up), or I'm just being penalized (albeit softly) for speaking out on a subject that's getting quite a bit of attention (at least from the few participating here so far). Or I've broken Joyrex's unwritten rule of site owner's discretion. But since it must somehow relate to the rules, I figured I'd just go ahead and bring it up here. I received no PM, no warning, nothing. Just avatar deleted. It was an homage to Fred simply because he was one of the main people who made this place what it is to me and it genuinely saddens me he's gone.

 

And please, don't take that as me ignoring the fact that you're the one that put this place together. I'll admit I've never donated a dime. I'm too goddamn poor. That's not to say that I've appreciated what this place has to offer. After all, I still come back, and you don't require payment to participate here. It's voluntary. I get it, but I still don't understand...

 

You present the issues like there is an impending doomsday on the forums. Sure, nothing lives forever. Someone briefly argued over what the users want versus your vision of these forums. They may have claimed this place is dying, which it's obviously not, as you mentioned membership and all that jazz is higher than ever and you're getting the costs covered. That's a great thing. But once again, I'll make the argument that this is a community, and I'll be more frank in that you're being viewed as a heavy-handed ruler over this community. If you're arguing that this community is now what financially keeps it going for the most part, I'll say that I personally think it's BS to not have some sort of board meeting to see how others feel. Because so far, aside from you splitting this topic off and participating in it, it seems like you're doing nothing but repetitively saying "nothing is changing about the rules or anyone who has been affected by them."

 

And unfortunately, it seems like most of the community are arguing for leniency to be given to Fred. I think this recent stuff is more about him than the rules, though the rules are still an issue because that's why he's gone in the first place. This just seems like a proxy for our cries to fall on deaf ears. I really don't care about the rules, because it's not hard to follow them. Most of us can agree that T&A threads are not what we're arguing for. We're arguing for reason. Fred never came here to tear it down. I don't think I've ever broken a rule, except maybe allowing myself to take part in straying conversation. But in GB, conversation almost always wanders off. It's kinda shitty if you can't speak your mind if the topic leads you that way. We all love our freedoms, no matter where we are. Limiting our ability to chit chat with one another about whatever we feel ultimately disrupts the beauty that this place once had. Watmm memes. Or before it was desginated so as a thread, inside jokes. Things that genuinely made you laugh your ass off. But it's as if you decided to use this place as a resume builder or something, where GB would become a cage full of animals that desperately wanted to be free. This place existed for a long damn time, even with the lengthy cold spell IDM has gone through. I, for one, think if you showed some mercy to Fred and let him back in, you wouldn't see your doomsday scenario play out the way it is in your head. You'd see the camaraderie that he's always invoked among the membership. You'd see this whole rules mess blow over until another one of your late-game rule changes ruffles the jimmies of the community again.

 

I'm not saying you're a monster. I'm not saying that any one person here is bigger than you (though, if I knew Kaen was still around, I would be willing to bet he's bigger than you). I'm just saying that from your position of power over this place, it's not gonna kill you or the forums to let some stuff slide every now and then.

 

I feel like I'm just at the point where I'm running around in circles.

 

TL;DR:

 

1) Which rule did my McGriff avatar break (so other members can be aware should they decide to hold vigil)?

2) I think I can speak for the majority when I say most of the community would agree that exception to the rules is the unwritten rule that has been forgotten with regards to Fred. Give him a break.

 

edit:

I took too long writing it all out, for all I know, there's another page of discussion since I last read it.

[YEK]

sorry i haven't read all of this thread , but when i was out i had an idea to label the general banter link as: GENERAL BANTER (nsfw)

 

maybe stupid. i tried

[autopilot]

or just hyphenate it

 

'general ban-ter'

[YEK]

harz harz

[murve33]

Nevermind, umop_apisdn's post says it all.

[goDel]

[*]Have the major artists and labels look to WATMM as a way to interface with their fans, and as a conduit for them to promote their works.

To me this seems largely out of your control. And this makes me question whether you've already been approached by people from warp, or vice versa. (the pixelives connection seems obvious)

 

But whatever the case, when that is going to happen, it will be a business decision in the first place. Imo, the idea that there's going to be an explicit connection to warp, for instance, is a bit old world thinking. If labels and artists want to be connected to their audience, they have so many options. The most obvious is the facebook/ youtube/..things, which all are well within their own control. Also, a more explicit connection to warp ( as if watmm is a new warp- net) doesn't seem viable to me. We're too much a niche within a niche. Watmm is not nearly as open/ approachable as facebook/ youtube and never will be either. Perhaps watmm could serve as a tool to look for new artists. But here, watmm is already overshadowed by the likes of soundcloud and bandcamp. ... Long story short: nice idea, but i don't think this will fly.

The most interesting aspect of watmm from the warp pov - imo- is that it is a place filled with people who buy their stuff and who can be marketed whenever a new album will be released. That's a pretty shallow connection, if you ask me. And I'm afraid you're making it bigger than it should be/is. Even if this place is as nsfw as in the old days, this won't change, imo.

 

Btw, if you want to make this place big(ger) you might want to consider the graphic/video artists crowd as well. A connection to a Desighers Republic should be just as obvious as a connection to labels and producers of music, imo. And in the idm scene, it's pretty natural various artforms crowd together as if they're all the same. Imo, the focus is too much on music and kinda takes away the oxygen for growing watmm further. But thats a big IMO.

 

Also, good post by upside down.

[SR4]

first off, i think at the very least we should give Joyrex props for allowing this thread in the first place; at the very least he is allowing an open thread for dissent directly (or indirectly) related to the banning of previous members.

 

 

That said, this forum has its ups and downs. Im a bit of a cynic and always think this forum has been on a slowly degrading slope since my joining (perhaps its directly related?)

 

So fuck it, ill join in until im banned, at which case ill move on. The people Ive made connections with know me outside of this sphere, everyone else is just common camaraderie, which i most certainly enjoy and respect, but if its gone i have no trouble moving elsewhere. I took a leave of absence a while back and it seemed to work perfectly (no one remembered me), which is pretty much exactly how I would like it.

 

PS. I really miss Fred, it was nice to have him back, and equally as grevious for him to leave (or forced to) just as quickly.

PPS> we should also have tits

PPPS> and penis

 

[*]Have the major artists and labels look to WATMM as a way to interface with their fans, and as a conduit for them to promote their works.

To me this seems largely out of your control. And this makes me question whether you've already been approached by people from warp, or vice versa. (the pixelives connection seems obvious)

But whatever the case, when that is going to happen, it will be a business decision in the first place. Imo, the idea that there's going to be an explicit connection to warp, for instance, is a bit old world thinking. If labels and artists want to be connected to their audience, they have so many options. The most obvious is the facebook/ youtube/..things, which all are well within their own control. Also, a more explicit connection to warp ( as if watmm is a new warp- net) doesn't seem viable to me. We're too much a niche within a niche. Watmm is not nearly as open/ approachable as facebook/ youtube and never will be either. Perhaps watmm could serve as a tool to look for new artists. But here, watmm is already overshadowed by the likes of soundcloud and bandcamp. ... Long story short: nice idea, but i don't think this will fly.
The most interesting aspect of watmm from the warp pov - imo- is that it is a place filled with people who buy their stuff and who can be marketed whenever a new album will be released. That's a pretty shallow connection, if you ask me. And I'm afraid you're making it bigger than it should be/is. Even if this place is as nsfw as in the old days, this won't change, imo.

Btw, if you want to make this place big(ger) you might want to consider the graphic/video artists crowd as well. A connection to a Desighers Republic should be just as obvious as a connection to labels and producers of music, imo. And in the idm scene, it's pretty natural various artforms crowd together as if they're all the same. Imo, the focus is too much on music and kinda takes away the oxygen for growing watmm further. But thats a big IMO.

Also, good post by upside down.

 

 

 

yeah seriously this can fuck right off. anyone not directly buttfucking a 303 is ignored unless they already had prior label recognition. Awepittance and a number of others are a great testament to this; great artists more or less ignored because they don't fit an increasingly boxed in nostalgic based criteria for artistic "relevance" within the IDM niche.

[lumpenprol]

[LimpyLoo]

[gmanyo]

Here's one problem I have. I feel like the people that are "tired of this forum being looked at by professionals and others as some cesspool where the greasy little IDM prepubescent nerds hang out and share their immature fantasies and giggle at poop jokes" are in the minority. I don't give two fucks what some professional thinks of this forum, and I don't think most other people do either. Poop jokes are hilarious, and the best times many have had on this forum were deleted very quickly. The reason people are complaining is that they enjoy that stuff. It's fun. It's a forum, on the internet. We're not a well-respected governing body of electronic music, we're a community of people that share similar interests. We're not trying to be respectful, we're trying to have a good time.

 

I also don't think intelligent discussion and stupid humor are mutually exclusive on a forum. This is one reason why many forums have more subforums - for example one for political discussion, one for critical thinking, one for lighthearted nonsense, one for garbage threads, etc. People want to relate in more than just one way all the time; sometimes people want to talk about the latest political whatever, sometimes they want to talk about their day, and sometimes they want to talk about a huge shit they took. It's also not that hard to not see a joke topic that you think is "trashy"; just don't click on it.

 

Maybe I'm not right in saying this; maybe it's just a vocal minority, but it doesn't seem like it. And I guess I understand that there might be monetary reasons behind wanting to look respectable. Yes, you're the admin of the forum, but a forum is made up of the people in it, and I think most people want some freedom to be ridiculous back.

 

In short: subforums maybe? I feel like there's some bent against them here, but I think it would be a good idea. Having this style makes you respectable, since your forum is under control, but you still have the freedom to be over-the-top in certain specific places. Usually if you can keep your "trashy" to one place, that works pretty well. And even without a trash section, you can have lighthearted vs political or whatever.

[lumpenprol]

All these logical, well-reasoned, and carefully put arguments are so cute.

 

JR has already explained his position, and is gonna do what he wants to do.

[gmanyo]

Okay, also

 

Ridiculous != NSFW. You can be more lenient without allowing non-work-safe content. This is not black and white at all. I don't want porn here. I'd be fine with never having it here. I just want the ability to post this* in the funny pictures thread - not because I'm trying to rebel against the rules - because I think it's fucking hilarious.

 

*The OP I mean.

[goDel]

I would agree, but i dont.

 

First, this thread exists where it wouldnt previously, imo.

Second, he made clear what he wants with watmm. So, now we're in a position to discuss about that ( in a way we havent been in previously, imo) . We can shoot at the direction. But also, if we agree on the direction, whether we agree on the way how that is achieved. This goes beyond complaining watmm isnt what it used to be - which i would agree, is not effective and puts jr in a position where he is perceived to keep on doing what he wants to do.

Third, he clearly takes part in the discussion and puts effort in making his position clear. So i dont agree with the dictatorial image which gets thrown around way too easy.

 

I see change. It's up to us members to take this offer open-minded, imo. Even though past experiences might point into another direction.

 

@lumpy

[granty]

Is this all because BoC communicated with fans via Twoism.org?

[OneToThirtySix]

How realistic is it to get a featured artist to be a member, or have them join a chat? We usually discuss them as though they are phantoms that leave behind treasures, but in the vein of making WATMM THE IDM hub of the internet, having a featured artist participate in mature, professional tones might set a paradigm the WATMMers haven't had the opportunity to operate in.

[goDel]

Perhaps the question should be whether artists are willing to chat under their real identity instead anonymous. My guess is they have no intention into making themselves known. And quite honestly, it wouldnt be an improvement either. If you want to see inane shit flying as if we're 12 year old girls running after bieber, you should go to a bieber concert. I'm not interested in rdj showing up at watmm under his own name. And yes, watmmers would cry like 12 yrs old girls when that would happen.

[gmanyo]

bambi. it's not that crazy.

[goDel]

*cries*

[lumpenprol]

@goDel:

 

you're right, I give credit to JR for finally establishing and coming clean with a position. And for allowing this thread. But no matter how reasonable he seems on the surface, at the end of the day, a few things will always stay the same, imo:

 

- he will be increasingly restrictive on content (or, if we're lucky, just maintain at the current restrictive level)

- he will continue to exercise a good degree of personal taste, deleting words and images as he sees fit, whether or not they strictly follow the stated rules or not

 

So you're pissing in the wind, folks. "take it, or leave it".

 

I'm saying this in a completely neutral tone by the way, I'm not angry about JR's position, maybe 4 yrs ago I would have gotten riled (I did when he first started his bannings and porn/humor crackdown), but I keep having to remind myself about that "definition of insanity" - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

 

I'm most angry now that I spent time typing this...grrr....

 

Everyone is so eloquent but it really is for naught.

 

Edit: also there have been threads like this in the past, I wouldn't take it as a sign of things moving in a new direction. It's a minor concession from JR to let us spill our guts and let off steam, after which things will return to exactly the same way they were before (or worse)

[OneToThirtySix]

Perhaps the question should be whether artists are willing to chat under their real identity instead anonymous. My guess is they have no intention into making themselves known. And quite honestly, it wouldnt be an improvement either. If you want to see inane shit flying as if we're 12 year old girls running after bieber, you should go to a bieber concert. I'm not interested in rdj showing up at watmm under his own name. And yes, watmmers would cry like 12 yrs old girls when that would happen.

Which might be a goal to avoid along the lines of "age, not shoe size", but I see your point.

 

 

*CHATMM, in the distant future*

RDJ: hay guise

WATMMer: *farts*

 

[granty]

To be honest the only reason I came back here after a few years hiatus was to get some feedback on my tunes in the 'your latest creations' forum (but that seems increasingly irrelevant now), but then I got drawn in by the often hilarious 'banter' - that's now literally the only thing that keeps me coming back. If there was any genuinely useful, interesting or exclusive content I might stay for that too, but there isn't any.

 

From my perspective at least, if you take away the banter, you take away the only thing this site has got going for it.

 

That's all I'm going to say, I don't think I'm going to post in GB or the BoC subforum anymore as they all seem to get removed for being vaguely offensive or not serious enough.

[goDel]

Fair.

 

I still put some hope into talking more sense into jr's notion of the industries position towards watmm. The whole notion of watmm needing to be more civilised/sfw might come from the idea of trying to establish some sort of connection. It's just an outdated idea. The industry has better options. Twitter being the last leaf on the tree of options. How much more effective is twitter compared to watmm? Seriously, there's no way of competing with the possibilities of twitter. I mean, it's not that people in the industry are looking for a meaningful discussion with members on some forum. Would ae be interested in our ideas of production? Would warp be interested in entering a discussion on whether we like their new signings?

 

If this is indeed why we need to look like a well groomed bunch of idm geeks, I don't think this is worth it. Being a bunch of well groomed geeks might not bring watmm, what jr hopes it would bring. So, is throwing away our identity actually worth it? ( to put it black/ white) no, I sure don't think so. It's like selling our soul to some kind of quasi interested devil. A devil which wont be dancing to our wishes. The time of boc competitions is long past. And, imo, we werent nearly as well groomed back then as we are now. And yet there was this boc competition. Interesting, innit? There are other forces outside of our control which make there wont be new boc competitions and what not. The world has changed in that aspect as well. So why not stick to our watmm identity? Sfw and nsfw.

 

@lumpy