The Esoteric Thread

[Milwaukeeeee]

2 hours ago, cern said:

what is this bullshit thread about

 

[zero]

6 hours ago, Milwaukeeeee said:

And god, the eternal spirits etc of course we have learned it from books or other source, but not only ourselves, hundreds of generations before.. maybe the question is not that we are being conditioned by that information, but why that information seems to be relevant and important, even way before major organized religions also tried to "sell it" as a blackmailing tactic of eternal punishment, and hasn't been discarded, has been  keept by not only the mainstream religions but esoteric circles that doesnt have much of a economic or political interest with the idea, just the perfection of human capabilities. And I refuse to think is just "fear" of death lol. More to be with higher states of conciousness, NDEs, mystic states etc..

re: why that information seems to be relevant/important. IMO it is because it has been ingrained into us as a species over the past several thousand years. the building blocks of our human code have been altered to include thinking almost constantly about the future, as opposed to keeping our attention locked into the current moment, much like animals do. this thinking about what's coming ahead has led to the creation of all sorts of fantastical gods & demons...all products of the human mind. it's been like this for so long that this "it's so important" has been essentially baked in to the source code in our brains.

regarding fear of death as motivation to create gods and spirits - I'd say it's more awareness of death than fear. humans as we know are more than likely the only living organism on this planet that knows they are going to die many many years before the event actually occurs. the knowledge of this fact is depressing, leads to avoidance of wanting to accept it as truth. the brain at some point in order to deal with this fact (and with the help of nature) re-wired itself and created thought as way to distract us for most of our lives from the knowledge that we are all going to die. after the acquisition of language happened in the human species, then came the thoughts that led to stories, myths, parables, etc. involving higher powers, due to early humans attempting to explain the unknown nature of existence, or why the rumbling thunder in the sky keeps happening.

 

 

 

[Milwaukeeeee]

21 hours ago, zero said:

re: why that information seems to be relevant/important. IMO it is because it has been ingrained into us as a species over the past several thousand years. the building blocks of our human code have been altered to include thinking almost constantly about the future, as opposed to keeping our attention locked into the current moment, much like animals do. this thinking about what's coming ahead has led to the creation of all sorts of fantastical gods & demons...all products of the human mind. it's been like this for so long that this "it's so important" has been essentially baked in to the source code in our brains.

regarding fear of death as motivation to create gods and spirits - I'd say it's more awareness of death than fear. humans as we know are more than likely the only living organism on this planet that knows they are going to die many many years before the event actually occurs. the knowledge of this fact is depressing, leads to avoidance of wanting to accept it as truth. the brain at some point in order to deal with this fact (and with the help of nature) re-wired itself and created thought as way to distract us for most of our lives from the knowledge that we are all going to die. after the acquisition of language happened in the human species, then came the thoughts that led to stories, myths, parables, etc. involving higher powers, due to early humans attempting to explain the unknown nature of existence, or why the rumbling thunder in the sky keeps happening.

 

 

 

It is not the fact of it being ingrained, but the inner nature of how the human brain operates by default, because it generates a space time imagination or expectation, in order to plan or create things, and sure many tribal cultures have created animic and natural gods out of basic magical thinking... but that is floating on the mere surface for explainign this whole issue.

There are mastodontic tons of info that tells us this human conciousness can have access to higher planes, fields, call it what you want, and have experiences science has not been able to explain, but not for that "less valid", since its influence is undeniable all over history. The access to those higher states of conciousness has led the creation of initiation schools, starting as soon or before as the Zoroastrians and the magi, the egyptian priesthood, the mithraists, the neopithagorics, yogic hindu masters, then the esoteric branches of the abrahamic religions, etc.
They have more or less in common that there could be an eternal unified field of conciousness from which the fine tuning and pure knowledge, or intelligence of "god" emanates from, and that realm could be accessed through different practices if we mantain a healthy inner organic system, and have enough emotional or astral body of the divine spark alive yet in us (according to the esoteric 4th way and sufism this astral body is not universal, and has to be developed through the concious suffering of life, a correct use of the human machine and having a loving attitude to most fellow breathing creatures).
 
This field is also entered to people sometimes in NDEs when they experience OBE (out of the body experiences) and remember things that were not in the same room or location as their body were, in which they can explore this plane of reality first, but then access a deeper one, in which they decribe being sucking upwards many times. The entrance could be also produced by emotional shocks in which time seems to almost stops and people even have OBEs too, Dmt or mushroom trips, deep meditation, and others... So what is the thing or vehicle that travels out of the body to places that the experiencers recall that are even more real than this reality itself? Call it pseudo or what you want but there are lots of evidence that is impossible to set aside, ignore or discard..if we do so it definetly won't drive us forward to any understanding of it. It is a complex matter, and there are many fakes and pseudos around for sure, but it is there, and it is definetly not regular imagination or visualization lol. Science seems to be stubborn in denying or downgrading these things. We have the Gateway process by the CIA that talks about some of this field of conciousness too but, I guess it could be just a fake psyop that doesn't led anywhere..

[zero]

2 hours ago, Milwaukeeeee said:

It is not the fact of it being ingrained, but the inner nature of how the human brain operates by default, because it generates a space time imagination or expectation, in order to plan or create things, and sure many tribal cultures have created animic and natural gods out of basic magical thinking... but that is floating on the mere surface for explainign this whole issue.

the way I tend to view all facets of religion or spirituality is through somewhat of an evolutionary psychology lens (of course the core of what we're talking about here is largely unproveable, but still, I appreciate discussions like this). if we look at the evolution of the human brain, we know it has undergone adaptations over the course of tens of thousands of years. there are theories out there that state that the physical growth of the human brain led to consciousness, and with that came the understanding of mortality. this is what led to the earliest primitive folk religions as a way to deal with the "problem" of impending death. these belief systems of course morphed and evolved over time, changing as the stories were passed on from generation to generation...that's sorta what I'm getting at when I talk about the gods having been ingrained in us. 

now I think what you're interested in is more of how consciousness intertwines with spirituality, and yeah...that's all totally subjective of course based on the viewer experiencing reality. I agree there are humans that can access different levels of spiritual thinking, IMO based largely on their relationship with meditation. meditation as we know is a way to calm the mind, and has the ability to produce insight, wisdom into the nature of existence. this is what the Buddha discovered 2,500 years ago. I also think a lot of the other spiritual holy men like Zoroaster, Jesus, various yogis that gave rise to Hinduism, etc. all were meditators that had their own insights into creation/existence, they just took it a little further than the Buddha did (more than likely due to regional, social, or cultural influences). 

[decibal cooper]

5 minutes ago, zero said:

the way I tend to view all facets of religion or spirituality is through somewhat of an evolutionary psychology lens (of course the core of what we're talking about here is largely unproveable, but still, I appreciate discussions like this). if we look at the evolution of the human brain, we know it has undergone adaptations over the course of tens of thousands of years. there are theories out there that state that the physical growth of the human brain led to consciousness, and with that came the understanding of mortality. this is what led to the earliest primitive folk religions as a way to deal with the "problem" of impending death. these belief systems of course morphed and evolved over time, changing as the stories were passed on from generation to generation...that's sorta what I'm getting at when I talk about the gods having been ingrained in us.

Same here. I remember reading a while back that about 30,000 years ago, you can find the first archeological evidence that homo sapiens left evidence of having burial rituals, so at that point they had a firm grasp on what mortality is or at the very least that humans dying had more meaning and significance than other animals dying. Apparently at that same time archeologists also see the first evidence of diversified tools, even if it is just carving out animal bones to be used as weapons, cooking utensils, musical instruments (pretty sure remember reading that the first flutes were made from animal bones). This definitely the source of something like spirituality and religion in my opinion, the crossroads of technologies that help humans multiply and advance coupled with an awareness of our own death. There is an american poet I really like named Wallace Stevens who has a great line about this, the first inklings of mortality: 'lack of imagination had itself to be imagined' - makes it seem like humans have to have some kind of awareness of their own creativity or ability to create things, and once they have that, they are able to recognize that this ability, along with the human body, eventually expire, and this leads to questions about an afterlife or what death is really like. Trippy stuff.

[Milwaukeeeee]

The science is the reliable map for the moment yeah, but it is incomplete, there are territories out there of damn sacred energies not yet succesfully explained guys... lets open those bitch ass nadis. Solve et Coagula

[luke viia]

Hmm, to me, religion isn't about death. It's about attempting to discover what's real and what our relationship to that reality is. That necessarily leads to dealing with death, but I don't think that was the impetus. I think a more likely culprit was a blossoming awareness of interconnectedness (I think it was a letter that someone sent to Freud which used the phrase "oceanic feeling," which I like: a feeling of unity and oneness (Freud's explanation of it was typical for him: infantile regression) and the "numinous feeling" as Rudolph Otto talks about it - better yet his coining of the term mysterium tremendens (a feeling of vastness, dread, of the unfathomable power of the world, which strikes an awe in us - a type of fear, and a desire to align with this powerful reality that we recognize outside ourselves but that is also deeply tied to our existence). I could be wrong about all this for sure, and I should clarify that I'm trying to describe the "religious temperament" rather than the dogmas and structures that eventually overtake major religions. I think the idea that "the gods are inside us" is true, in a simple way, but that there is a metaphysical reality that most truly religious figures have somehow had insight into, and those insights are true across and beyond all human knowing; certainly beyond any culture or specific set of beliefs. Fritjof Schuon called those "inner" truths (rather than outward expressions) as the "esoteric" aspect of metaphysical thought (not in a woowoo kind of way, just "hidden"). Religion is, to me, ultimately a metaphysical and philosophical search. I lean towards early Neoplatonic thought in my suspicions of the nature of things (that is to say, emanationist ideas about what is at the heart of things). Combining those ideas with a process-relational theological set of ideas, that I find to be somewhat in line with both the Gita's teachings about the paramatman and with Huayen Buddhism's idea of interconnectedness, I'm starting to make sense of the idea of a "personal" God that inhabits literally all things, is a singular source, and most mysteriously to me, seems to be Love itself. My theodicy needs some work but idk, process thought really helped me even with that. 

that was way more of a ramble than intended. I guess back to the point, I think that the feeling - the intuitive knowledge - of unity, which leads to respect for all beings (including our concern for the dead, and our own fates), is a good candidate for what repeatedly sparks spiritual/religious conviction in conscious minds. Is it right? I don't know. But not many mystics fear death. 

[luke viia]

On 8/13/2024 at 4:22 PM, Auditor said:

Found a copy of this at Goodwill, had no clue what I was in for. Still slowly digesting it a year later. 

It's such a trip - the author has such a wide breadth of knowledge and pieces things together in ways that I adore. I'm also very slowly wading through it.

I picked up Lovejoy's The Great Chain of Being recently (which I think is kinda dated, but I'm still intrigued) as well as a collection of talks by Vivekananda. Looking forward to those. I love the way Vivekananda would apparently address people: "Listen, O you children of immortal light!" 

Also got a small book of Ba'hai writings and ehhhhhh... lotta empty rhetoric, just saying nothing really. There's some interesting ideas about what "the Holy Spirit" is (according to them), but otherwise big meh. Surprised that faith took off tbh

[auxien]

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

I do not agree with the concept of sidestepping reality. Reality to begin with is not a fixed concept and depends a lot upon the grade of conciousness some particular entity may have. Regular humans have a particular degree of conciousness, humans that have their system fully healthy developed and work conciously on themselves have  higher one (have higher intuition, strong being and emotional stability, coherent and efective thought construction, deep will, and a more stable "I" that does't fluctuate much by circumstances, expectatives or emotional shocks, and interest in generating things of value for others and themselves), animals other, more develped animals a wider one, etc depends a lot with the mental, emotional and physical development of a given organism, and their ability to sense and digest that force or conciousness that permeates everything.

reality doesn't change based on the consciousness of any creature observing it (no, the headlines you've seen that 'physics proves reality is CREATED by us OBSERVING it!' isn't accurate). reality simply is as it is...different abilities of observing it are certain based on any number of things, but the underlying reality does not change in any way, shape, or form imaginable. the falling tree makes a sound even if no one is in the forest to hear it.

the frankly weird distinction of 'healthy developed stable humans' having higher/better/deeper/whatever consciousness is not good. some of us choose different paths than others. demarcating a line as some 'lesser' isn't necessary or helpful.

consciousness does not permeate everything. this doesn't make any sense. the concept of consciousness itself is uncertain on many levels, the word is ill-defined in ways that makes it particularly malleable by casuals/non-professionals, so it gets thrown about and attached to anything and everything, twisted into meaninglessness. i honestly don't know why you're talking about it here.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

Mystics may have had deeper insights than us, and experienced a completely different picture that our so called half awake view of consensual"reality"

who said that, the mystics? i'm sure they had no bias or gains to be made by making such ludicrous claims.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

If we modify the the brain almost muting most of its activiy, we may recieve finer and deeper streams of conciousness, just like mystic states or magic mushrooms do, and once there understand something in a different way, maybe a view of "reality" more real or coherent, naked from all the subective egoic clothing or personal background we have (havent tryed mushrroms myself yet, and not expert on meditation, just have much theoric knowledge about these things)

consciousness is not granted unto a brain-haver by some other place...you're just using the word 'consciousness' in place of 'imbued portion of an unexplainable spirit/god/other/whatever'.

some people can begin to understand concepts and aspects of the world around us deeper and much more than others with lots of training, focus, practice, etc...we don't call them mystics tho, and it's certainly not something i've seen common among the magic mushroom takers i've known...those people are mathematicians, engineers, artists, musicians, doctors, psychiatrists, etc. i'm not saying mystics or mushroom takers don't achieve abnormal states of being in some sense or another, of course, i'm saying that just because it's different doesn't mean it's 'better' or purer or accessing anything otherworldly. smoking a fuckton of crack and acting like a absolute lunatic for a day doesn't mean that person access some special god-spirit, it just means their brain got fuckin' fried. mushrooms or mystic meditation or runnner's highs or anything else like this falls into the same camp, except it's not often as immediately detrimental as cracksmoking.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

Science just can tell a fraction of it based on our current development of physics, and thats it, we do not know more than some basic particles and subparticles dynamics and some physics laws, we do not grasp yet a bit of how conciousness operates inside our brains, and what this universe may really be.

science can tell us so, so very much about our reality, and glean a ton of very clear information about the past based on it. it doesn't answer everything yet tho, no. the absence of completeness isn't something that will negate what is currently known, however. we've seen some serious shifts in knowledge/explanation/understanding based on science's staggering growth over the last few hundred years, but those monumental 'shifts' we're taught about aren't likely to be too common going forward. there's still tons of cool info being learned about many things of course, including how our brain works. but that doesn't mean it's going to 'shift' away from the hard facts that are very proven at this point.

again, consciousness isn't something 'operating inside our brains' nor is there going to be any shift in 'what this universe may be' that negates the facts that our planet travels around a star based on the physics of gravity/momentum, etc. our brain is meat, if you smash the brain to absolute bits, that person is gone. nothing about any of this will change, i promise. you don't have to believe it, but there's staggering evidence suggesting this, far, far, far more than the claims otherwise.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

Trying to go further than those explanations checking other sources and trying to connect dots or inner verify some aspects is not sidestepping reality in my opinion.

i don't think there's anything wrong with entertaining other opinions, views, or questions, in and of itself, that 'further' stuff is fine, that's how some fringe ideas become accepted science (our best explanation of reality) on rare occasion. but if that's all you or anyone is doing, and i've known people like that in real life, it's not fruitful. it's wanting to think about interesting things (which is great!) and getting hung up on that dopamine of 'wow, this wild thing could be revolutionary!' because reality and science at this stage is largely 'boring' and pretty well locked understood in many, many ways. to me that's a fair and understandable desire, but it's sidestepping reality for the 'greener' pastures on the other side of the fence.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

There are tons of data pointing to the existence of an inner energy quality of being that can develop, and could be the so called spirit, that can operate after this flesh existence on this planet.

there are not.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

all of it just fake during lot of centuries?

yes, definitely, 100%. unless Queen Elizabeth watched me take a piss a few minutes ago, then yeah. ole girl's dead. her spirit doesn't continue. she can't watch us piss from an otherworldly realm. she is no more, like the billions upon billions of other dead humans.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

Refuse to think so, and I do not lose particularly anthing by trying to pursue it and understanding it to the degree my life would let.

you don't have to believe reality doesn't allow for the existence of a self after the material body is destroyed, that's fine. you agree with probably 80% of the people on the planet. you're all wrong tho, demonstrably.

you don't lose anything except a connection to the knowledge and deep understanding of actual reality literally at your fingertips, which is multitudes vaster and easier to grasp than it's ever been in the entirety of history. your choice, of course. that's what most of us choose most of the time. known reality isn't mysterious by definition, so our ego isn't initially excited as we can't be explorers, just learners.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

NDEs have many data that current science is unable to explain, like those out of body descriptions of events not posible to have been percieved by the person, and then confimed by other witnesses. Science has only the argumentation you have mentioned, and it falls short

some of the NDEs i've read about have some hints of unknowable things, but unless it's done in an irrefutable way i can't really take if for much more than a curiosity. it is curious tho.

On 8/13/2024 at 11:55 AM, Milwaukeeeee said:

The demiurge stuff may be a uncanny thing with many pseudointerpretations but that kinda matches the kind of shitty, accidental, unpredictable and many times allowed to absurd cruelty reality we have. There may be in fact a conciouss demiurge spirit that tries to help to liberate more conciouss individuals, and send big spiritual teachers, and a major evil one which allows and foment all of the crap. That one could have been summoned or invited by Moses to access the inner energy of the earth. We are talking about Yahweh, and since then it has been adored and praised as a "god". We all know the power some systems like judaism magic have, they may be using the power of this demiurge to control the banking system, and hypnotyze most humanity. But that is one sloppy theory of it hahaa

lol yeah there 'may be in fact a ___________ that tries to....' (insert literally any imaginable thing). it's just mad libs at that point tho, all the religions/fringe reality conspiracy shit/etc., it's just a jumble of terrible wordplay and 'what if....' that someone else said 'yeah wow that sounds cool! okay'

read about it or whatever it really can sometimes be interesting, but just don't subscribe to it is my opinion. unless there's hard proof, it's just fiction. read some fiction or write some, that's way cooler.

Edited August 17 by auxien

[ooqpoo]

The stuff I´ve read of it, mainly Dion Fortune which I think I first read about in a Crowley article via some late nite surface browsing on a simple wiki (since got some books but never really got into that guy, though I do on some level think he´s kind of cool in a mad uncle fester kind of way.) Then later after I´d read her novels, which are if nothing else, quaint little portals to 1930s England and lots of fond memories I still have from those stories, I started to quite zone in on her theory based books in a way that sometimes felt deliciously obsessive, kind of like discovering a new drug and yeah, having the mind affected thusly. Always a suspicious eye toward her though, the psychiatrist woman, for who else knows how to manipulate the mind that a shrink? And a shrink with occultist leanings and lots of fancy notions to boot.

 

I clearly remember the first time I plopped into bed with her Cosmic Doctrine, rife with mental gymnastics right from the get go. Ideas you might recognize from monologues by the biggest acidhead at the party at 6 in the morning, but it´s all written in this concise, strict Victorian era head mistress style prose. That contrast in itself was weird. Fuck the 60s, seems like the real trippy stuff was going on in secret lodges with colonels and other hardcore conservative types of the interwar era.

 

It was very dense and I´d find myself having to go over even the shortest sentences several times before getting a grasp on it, but that made it so interesting but also something I had to be a specific mindset to not get frustrated with it. Lots of analogies, between something obviously apparent and the theory in question. This is something, I´ve since discovered, she does all the time in her works. I´d often find myself looking at things during my everyday through the lens of this new thinking, being on this level on earth at the last outpost before ascending back up through the planes to be refreshed amongst realm of sleeping entities before heading back down on the cosmic rollercoaster. Or something.

It made me feel kinda elated and special. I was now brushing shoulders with folk who were in touch with Ancient Masters in this secret club of hidden knowledge. About a third of the way through it was getting too complex for my feeble mind but I intrigued, so I ended up buying an accompaniment book by John Michael Greer. He´s got a whole thing for himself in the genre.  

 

So, flipping between the two I finally finished (both) books. It was a ride. I would veer lots of times from feeling, almost physically, that something totally new was being added to me in a good way, to feeling like I was being had through an elaborate and confusing ruse. I discovered over time that there was quite a clear demarcation point to which I´d be able to follow her to, after which it got too literal, zealous and nutty. And (although she keeps on about it being a metaphor for something she never really reveals, guess it´s entirely up to the reader) I did like the creation myth/theory element of it. The idea of everything starting with a tiny movement in empty space and via a continuation of that movement becoming some kind of a ginormous axis that propels increasingly complex units which eventually become solar systems, planets and the lifeforms that inhabit them. It made me think of Autechre lol. Very Autechrian somehow.

 

The way she uses quasi scientific but very neutral terminology (e.g the Three Rings equating to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) like a bare bones blue print, the implications of which seem flexible and vast enough to accommodate the specifics of many religious systems, it seemed very universal like that and I really liked that aspect of it and the way it also seemed to be applicable, at least in a quite general way, to everyday things and to the behaviours of societies, group thinking and the way trends and ideas gain traction.

 

There are parts of her stuff that speak quite profoundly to me and parts that don´t whatsoever, but I  I feel like I´ve gotten the jist of her and a flavor of occultism from that era. I´ll probably revisit some of it down the road, but for now I think I´ve had my fill of the Mary Poppins of the occult. I´m now reading some Algernon Blackwood, which I discovered via Dion, another fine English eccentric type who was born around my old stomping ground. A little bit hit and miss, but the good stuff is like, really good, most notably the nature orientated tales, I especially liked The Willows. Great little story.  

[luke viia]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:22 PM, auxien said:

who said that, the mystics? i'm sure they had no bias or gains to be made by making such ludicrous claims.

actually that's an interesting point: most of them had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose (I'm thinking mostly of female Catholic mystics here: the Teresas, Julian, Hildegard, Catherine, Claire, etc -- though men deserve a note: San Juan de la Cruz suffered severely for his beliefs: same with Giordano Bruno and others) 

I guess there's a different answer to your valid complaint when it comes to modern "guru culture" (which is like a weird predecessor to influencer life imo, but even more predatory). I think that whole thing is deeply troubling but it says more about humanity than metaphysics or spiritual truth. If something is powerful enough to be corrupted and deliberately abused like that, we owe it to ourselves to try to understand it in its more crystalline form. 

idk just want to combat the idea that mystics - that term properly understood - are somehow gaining from what they say. They usually either suffer or die for their convictions. 

[zero]

33 minutes ago, luke viia said:

I guess there's a different answer to your valid complaint when it comes to modern "guru culture" (which is like a weird predecessor to influencer life imo, but even more predatory). I think that whole thing is deeply troubling but it says more about humanity than metaphysics or spiritual truth. If something is powerful enough to be corrupted and deliberately abused like that, we owe it to ourselves to try to understand it in its more crystalline form. 

related to the guru culture thing...article about bay area tech bros that claim to be able to teach people how to enter the jhanas:

https://time.com/7007856/jhourney-meditation-jhanas-retreat-bliss/

Quote

These eight advanced meditative states, characterized by deep concentration and blissful absorption, have been practiced for thousands of years but were long considered the domain of mystics and monks with decades of training.

 

[auxien]

8 hours ago, luke viia said:

actually that's an interesting point: most of them had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose (I'm thinking mostly of female Catholic mystics here: the Teresas, Julian, Hildegard, Catherine, Claire, etc -- though men deserve a note: San Juan de la Cruz suffered severely for his beliefs: same with Giordano Bruno and others) 

I guess there's a different answer to your valid complaint when it comes to modern "guru culture" (which is like a weird predecessor to influencer life imo, but even more predatory). I think that whole thing is deeply troubling but it says more about humanity than metaphysics or spiritual truth. If something is powerful enough to be corrupted and deliberately abused like that, we owe it to ourselves to try to understand it in its more crystalline form. 

idk just want to combat the idea that mystics - that term properly understood - are somehow gaining from what they say. They usually either suffer or die for their convictions. 

fair points, i'm sure some or even most of them truly believed the things they spoke of...and any number of those types like you point out, Catholic women on the side of mysticism, were maybe a bit off their rocker in some way or another. not all, of course, but some probably were. i'm not familiar with all of those, the Catholic saints/esoterics were not a big part of my upbringing, but i've heard of some. the note on Bruno suffering is particularly interesting, since (of the little i know of him directly) is that he seemed to be more a man of proto-scientific approaches more than mysticism specifically (tho that aspect was part of some things i believe). i see what you're saying and it's fair, but there's grey areas in there for sure.

the guru culture of the modern day is definitely in my mind on these subjects....maybe i'm wrong but i've always assumed there were many progenitors of that ilk in the past, maybe so much that even many of the great 'prophets' etc. were just the more successful of these (whose shadier aspects have been worn down because of the distance of time).

i don't see any way of separating humanity from concepts of metaphysics or spiritual truth. imo both of these are wholly created concepts tied intimately with the particular aspects of the human/humans/civilizations/religions/etc. from which whatever flavor you're into was drawn.

i think the term word mystics is pretty vague and not exactly helping with clarity here, but i know what you mean in general (and i think i know what Milwaukee was getting at originally). many were surely persecuted for their beliefs/views/etc., others profited & gained in any number of ways.

[Milwaukeeeee]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:22 AM, auxien said:

reality doesn't change based on the consciousness of any creature observing it (no, the headlines you've seen that 'physics proves reality is CREATED by us OBSERVING it!' isn't accurate). reality simply is as it is...different abilities of observing it are certain based on any number of things, but the underlying reality does not change in any way, shape, or form imaginable. the falling tree makes a sound even if no one is in the forest to hear it.

the frankly weird distinction of 'healthy developed stable humans' having higher/better/deeper/whatever consciousness is not good. some of us choose different paths than others. demarcating a line as some 'lesser' isn't necessary or helpful.

consciousness does not permeate everything. this doesn't make any sense. the concept of consciousness itself is uncertain on many levels, the word is ill-defined in ways that makes it particularly malleable by casuals/non-professionals, so it gets thrown about and attached to anything and everything, twisted into meaninglessness. i honestly don't know why you're talking about it here.

who said that, the mystics? i'm sure they had no bias or gains to be made by making such ludicrous claims.

consciousness is not granted unto a brain-haver by some other place...you're just using the word 'consciousness' in place of 'imbued portion of an unexplainable spirit/god/other/whatever'.

some people can begin to understand concepts and aspects of the world around us deeper and much more than others with lots of training, focus, practice, etc...we don't call them mystics tho, and it's certainly not something i've seen common among the magic mushroom takers i've known...those people are mathematicians, engineers, artists, musicians, doctors, psychiatrists, etc. i'm not saying mystics or mushroom takers don't achieve abnormal states of being in some sense or another, of course, i'm saying that just because it's different doesn't mean it's 'better' or purer or accessing anything otherworldly. smoking a fuckton of crack and acting like a absolute lunatic for a day doesn't mean that person access some special god-spirit, it just means their brain got fuckin' fried. mushrooms or mystic meditation or runnner's highs or anything else like this falls into the same camp, except it's not often as immediately detrimental as cracksmoking.

science can tell us so, so very much about our reality, and glean a ton of very clear information about the past based on it. it doesn't answer everything yet tho, no. the absence of completeness isn't something that will negate what is currently known, however. we've seen some serious shifts in knowledge/explanation/understanding based on science's staggering growth over the last few hundred years, but those monumental 'shifts' we're taught about aren't likely to be too common going forward. there's still tons of cool info being learned about many things of course, including how our brain works. but that doesn't mean it's going to 'shift' away from the hard facts that are very proven at this point.

again, consciousness isn't something 'operating inside our brains' nor is there going to be any shift in 'what this universe may be' that negates the facts that our planet travels around a star based on the physics of gravity/momentum, etc. our brain is meat, if you smash the brain to absolute bits, that person is gone. nothing about any of this will change, i promise. you don't have to believe it, but there's staggering evidence suggesting this, far, far, far more than the claims otherwise.

i don't think there's anything wrong with entertaining other opinions, views, or questions, in and of itself, that 'further' stuff is fine, that's how some fringe ideas become accepted science (our best explanation of reality) on rare occasion. but if that's all you or anyone is doing, and i've known people like that in real life, it's not fruitful. it's wanting to think about interesting things (which is great!) and getting hung up on that dopamine of 'wow, this wild thing could be revolutionary!' because reality and science at this stage is largely 'boring' and pretty well locked understood in many, many ways. to me that's a fair and understandable desire, but it's sidestepping reality for the 'greener' pastures on the other side of the fence.

there are not.

yes, definitely, 100%. unless Queen Elizabeth watched me take a piss a few minutes ago, then yeah. ole girl's dead. her spirit doesn't continue. she can't watch us piss from an otherworldly realm. she is no more, like the billions upon billions of other dead humans.

you don't have to believe reality doesn't allow for the existence of a self after the material body is destroyed, that's fine. you agree with probably 80% of the people on the planet. you're all wrong tho, demonstrably.

you don't lose anything except a connection to the knowledge and deep understanding of actual reality literally at your fingertips, which is multitudes vaster and easier to grasp than it's ever been in the entirety of history. your choice, of course. that's what most of us choose most of the time. known reality isn't mysterious by definition, so our ego isn't initially excited as we can't be explorers, just learners.

some of the NDEs i've read about have some hints of unknowable things, but unless it's done in an irrefutable way i can't really take if for much more than a curiosity. it is curious tho.

lol yeah there 'may be in fact a ___________ that tries to....' (insert literally any imaginable thing). it's just mad libs at that point tho, all the religions/fringe reality conspiracy shit/etc., it's just a jumble of terrible wordplay and 'what if....' that someone else said 'yeah wow that sounds cool! okay'

read about it or whatever it really can sometimes be interesting, but just don't subscribe to it is my opinion. unless there's hard proof, it's just fiction. read some fiction or write some, that's way cooler.

damn I've been a week off from vacation and seeing this throw of the typical satiric paraghraphs aimed to be refutations, but refuting nothing and based on the same old carthesian materialism and some scaloppini humor from the pub, has made me kind of apatic to give it a specific response to each one of those kinda pretentious miniquotedanswers, so I would do some resume

Suppose this "reality" is a vast intentionally organized field of energy and information that permeate everything with different layers of wave vibration and complexity, and would be the primal substance of everything from which not only this matter 3d dimension emanates, and let's take the world "conciousness" the inteligence essence of it and at the same time the spectrum in which and organism can dig into it

Your first line to begin with should not be considered as a inmutable fact, and only guides to a flat stuck understanding of reality, and it could be nearer to been wrong than right. Reality, or what it is more important the experience of it, does change depending on the grade of development of management of conciousness of the entity that interacts with it. Reality is as I mentioned on previous posts not such a hard mechanicist thing, it behaves much like an infortmation electric-photonical wavefield in its core, and that correlates much better with idealism than hard materialism (conciousness prior to energy, and energy prior to matter, but the information of the conciousness being the source). Other organims, birds, insects etc have different "antennas" receptors and understand reality way different than us.. for them it is not such thing as questioning if the tree really grows if I do not see it (of course it does, but that doesn't deny that those biological changes or local situations are independant of a deeper idealism wavesource core of reality anyways) we do not know tons of many other things that may be happening as we talk, that defies our physics laws of understaning, like who knows maybe some angelic cherubims bietches may be doing an inconcedible orgy on some portal right next to my window but in some other dimension, and due to my conciousness and biological dechypering limitations and veils I cannot percieve it or fathom the enormity of such things haha, like I cannot eco-locate objects like bats do, or navigate into the deep sea using sound like dolphins, (those organims cocreating their worldview for sure) but I can't definetly deny that some things I can't percieve could be in fact hapenning, and those things be based of an exchange of information primarily, not just matter, and each entity managing their near information field as their complexity allows

At the quantum level reality definetly behaves differently depending on the observer or by the manipulation from the observer (aka double slit experiment for example, quantum entanglement, retrocausality or present changes the past, etc ). It is most definetly a bio-data cocreation between that field of energetical information and our nervous systems at its base level, that can be developed more, to tune into higher frequency signals or layer-fields.
Reality may be mostly made of different kind of streams of vibrations and waves carrying info (the denser ones the less concious, like rocks, minerals, up to more complex living and feeling organisms, to post organic entities or who knows, all of them orgazing in fractal patterns) and it seems we can interphere with those fields in subtle deeper ways using our own potential mental and magnetic energies by intentional meditation, spiritual practices, ketamine or mushrooms introspections, etc.

let's put in some hardcore idealism vids
 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/biocentrism/202011/the-impossibility-of-being-dead

You seem to be so obdurated with the dichotomy of science vs all that is not " strictly consensous science", this thread advised that it is pseudo from the beginnig, who cares? it doesn't intend to tell you science is fake lol. I do not deny science I said it before, I know what it says in the mainstream accepted worldview of it, I'm cool with it not big deal. And I do not lose any connection with the actual "reality at our fingertips" like you said, why would it be the case? Reading esotericism or hermetic philosophy doesn't neglect the fact that I have read or seen proly a lot of more science, biology, physics articles or documentaries than you or most people around, so, da fak you talking about??

Concerning the mystics stuff, why so much of them agreed in the nature of that field of energetic unfathomable bliss or love in the deeper altered states, despite being from different cultures, places and ages? Most of them were outsiders (many of the yogic hindus, early greek esoteric orthodox monks ones and the sufist for sure) and lived austere lives that did not benefit in a material way by saying these things, or making a guru business. You do not know shit if those claims are ludicruous or not, only a fool would considered those big potency pineal static orgasms a small deal, demn it

Yes there are tons of documentation and tradition lore and scriptures that point out to the existence of a soul. Was all humanity that dumb to let that supposed imaginary concept prevail around all that time even tho they did not have the american diet and tiktok at hand ?

(just two random links to point this obvious shit out):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

https://es.scribd.com/document/87046568/1441152245-Soul

And concerning NDE's again there are many cases that cannot be succesfully explained. Clear conciousness of being in different places during a OBE's into a NDE's experience cannot be explained by current neurological science, and the info is there, the conciousness of some of these people could go trough walls, objects, observe other rooms etc brain activity are unable to explain that kind of perceptions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

https://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html

Even harcore science like the Sam Parnia investigation can't explain some of these cases

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page

This is a place for the fun and excitment given by the esoteric traditions, the mistery of conciousness and the hermetic texts, let it be just fiction for the neophytes, cause that's what it would remain for most of them... like someone cared hoho

 

Edited August 22 by Milwaukeeeee

[prdctvsm]

 

[auxien]

4 hours ago, Milwaukeeeee said:

This is a place for the fun and excitment given by the esoteric traditions

alright, y'all have fun then, i'm outta here

[luke viia]

On 8/21/2024 at 9:31 AM, zero said:

related to the guru culture thing...article about bay area tech bros that claim to be able to teach people how to enter the jhanas:

https://time.com/7007856/jhourney-meditation-jhanas-retreat-bliss/

 

Not sure what mood this article (or your link to it) is supposed to be creating but I'm having an allergic reaction lol 

Quote

Jhourney’s approach isn’t without controversy. Some critics question whether the company has the expertise to guide retreats safely; others worry about repackaging rich practices as self-help techniques. “Jhourney is saying they’re not Buddhists and yet they’re using a Buddhist term,” says Tina Rasmussen, an American meditation teacher. “And that’s because it sells. If they’re really trying to help people, why are they charging so much?”

right. "Mindfulness" generally, by way of the Eckhart Tolles or the Sam Harrises, is big business. And until it ISN'T being sold, no one should trust it, imo. 

I get that the author is in pain, but 

Quote

Advised by my physiotherapist to meditate, I started doing app-guided breathing exercises and reading about meditation online. Critics warn that Jhourney risks reducing a profound contemplative path to a quick fix. Truthfully, that’s what appealed when I first emailed Gruver and Zerfas asking if I could attend a retreat and write about it. I’d already lost countless hours to medical appointments, hospital stays, and simply being in pain. I wanted to feel better, and soon.

[deleted my soliloquy on grace here, i didn't state my ideas well]

Quote

The goal of dramatically reducing the effort needed to access these states motivated Zerfas to quit his software-engineering job at Lyft in 2021 and co-found Jhourney the following year with Alex Gruver, then a management consultant. “It was an insane thing to do,” Zerfas says, “to try to replicate this thing that’s supposedly been around for a few millennia that nobody has heard of and then try to teach other people.”

I mean first off, fuck the second half of that claim, and also just... gross. douchebags charging $$$ for this kind of thing is so very "on brand" - and yes I do think the desire to cash in on a sense of peace is not new, but it is stronger than ever. 

just eat some mushrooms, people. ffs

Edited August 22 by luke viia

[Milwaukeeeee]

@auxien You can't deny there is some fun element on it, despite the controversy of opinions. I dedicate these balsamic spiritual nectars to you before you go

[ooqpoo]

Yeah, that was some cheesy vox pops xD but yeah from what I can understand of it, fun, or at least an element of the theatrical, does seem to be an integral part of the proceedings when it comes to ceremonial magic stuff, which seems to be much like any club, or group related activity i.e. a group of like minded people acting out a commonly decided upon narrative, where each participant takes on the part that is most in tune with their own personality, which in turn is amplified by the theatrics and gravitas of it all and felt by those involved as an energy or power "coming through from the other side", a phrase which is more of convenience than scientific fact. Fun and games as it most certainly is, it requires on the one hand a degree of maturity - for, as with any form of acting, if not taken seriously the element in question will not be felt. And coupled with that an inquisitive and childlike sense of play and adventure. And then I suppose depending on the nature of the group and its intentions can from there go in all sorts of directions. 

  

[zero]

15 hours ago, luke viia said:

Not sure what mood this article (or your link to it) is supposed to be creating but I'm having an allergic reaction lol 

yeah man I definitely wasn't trying to endorse that jhourney nonsense, had read that article recently and was reminded of it when the guru culture thing came up. I too think it's more of a swindle than anything. there's no need to spend $$$ on a mindfulness retreat when you can go meditate in nature on your own if you're so inclined to do so. people who buy into thinking that these guys have somehow stumbled upon some fast pass method to enlightenment is ridiculous. 

[Milwaukeeeee]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-3F4EWMolw/

The guy has no brain lol (no thought to worry about by the way) May be an evidence that deeper conciousness is seated elsewhere (not mainly by brain activity, but who knows this story could be fake aswell haha)

[Milwaukeeeee]

 

Edited September 2 by Milwaukeeeee

[prdctvsm]

 

[Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo]

we are in a floating gem, each droplet of water contains a magnitude beyond even our comprehension of the whole gaia, whose multitudinous contents are beyond that.  our consciousness sculpts it as it in turn sculpts us.  the path towards that which it desires is the one we must find.  what it desires is what we need most, even without it.  but 'we' is not just us.  so the task is overwhelming to an individual.

[Milwaukeeeee]